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J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 05/06/2023 1.28.4


JonnyH13

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24 minutes ago, BCH said:

Do units in this game have a true zone of control beyond the firing arc?

Can you clarify what you mean by zone of control? The AI decision making works off a variety of ranges based on the weapon range, spotting range, and other factors. 

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1 hour ago, pandakraut said:

Can you clarify what you mean by zone of control? The AI decision making works off a variety of ranges based on the weapon range, spotting range, and other factors. 

 

In some games, a zone of control effects the opposing side from passing completely  through that zone without incurring some sort of penalty to movement, from slowing down to the most severe penalty stopping the unit. So, I was wondering if the coding behind flanking for example, or something else is a factor in units getting stuck in the water for some cases.

If units get stuck in water far outside of any units possible 'zone of control'; then something else is likely the problem.

I assume that when I see one of my units as 'flanked'; there is some penalty for that condition; I have also noted that I can be 'flanked' by units that are very far out of their range of fire, i.e. not a threat.

Just pondering the possible causes of the stream issue.

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I wouldn't really describe what is going on as zone of control, but units do have a reaction distances so I could see applying that concept there. I would guess that the units getting stuck is a either a retreat pathing issue or a unit state issue where the logic breaks and doesnt' try and find a new retreat direction.

The issue with units walking onto the bridge and stopping I would guess is a reaction range issue. Normally the AI walks forward until it's in range and then fires. Since muskets have a shorter range than rifles in the mod that might be interfering with some other logic that expects the ranges to always be equal.

Flanking is unrelated. That is based entirely on the direction fire is received from. The two main cases I see of people complaining about unexpected flank shots are from artillery fire and fortifications(which have their own facing issues).

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Shiloh is still being a thorn in my side, no matter what tactics I use. Two CSA brigades of 4000+ was almost a quarter of the Union total. I manage to pull back almost the entire Union army to the Landing. One of the OP CSA brigades pushed into 6 of my brigades backed by 4 artillery batteries, took 1500 causalities in the first couple volleys, routed two Union brigades simultaneous, and kept right on going despite enfilade fire.

Then the rest of the CSA brigades followed.

The scaling in regards to CSA brigade size is truely wacked for Shiloh. (largest Union brigade was 1000)

Since I have saved all the 1.21 camps, battles, etc.; I went back to see what I needed to do to get more troops on the field for Shiloh, although I suspect more troops, the CSA brigades will be even more OP. My biggest cost, is not troops and equipment, it is the cost of officers. So I am obviously missing something in regards to the barracks strategy.

It also seems to me, that the career point distribution is now very rigid, in that there is not much room for variation at the MG level.

Fortunately I have a good supply of single malt to help with this frustration.

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2 minutes ago, pandakraut said:

Flanking is unrelated. That is based entirely on the direction fire is received from.

I have had units showing that they were flanked and not taking fire (I double checked the box with deaths/kills); I guess that would mean an enemy unit has spotted my unit and is pointing in my units direction.

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6 minutes ago, BCH said:

The scaling in regards to CSA brigade size is truely wacked for Shiloh. (largest Union brigade was 1000)

The scaling counts the allied troops which are all huge, so not a lot you can do there. It might be worth fighting an extra few thousand troops to get your units a bit larger. Those troops will all be spread out at least.

7 minutes ago, BCH said:

It also seems to me, that the career point distribution is now very rigid, in that there is not much room for variation at the MG level.

What's your current setup?

8 minutes ago, BCH said:

My biggest cost, is not troops and equipment, it is the cost of officers.

A lot of my rookie units intended only to delay or melee I used captains on and didn't care about the efficiency penalties.

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Can we have a new config option that we can use the original weapon stats?

the balanced musket weapon stats is very history, but not very fun.

the balanced rapid fire rifle(like spencer)is quite weak.

So can we have an option to use the original weapon stats in config excel.(its even better if you can separate the option in infantry, skirmisher, cav and cannon)

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CSA MG 1st Bull Run report - the union units are attempting to make it across the river definitely, they are still coming in groups of 2 or 3 at most instead of all attacking at once, on the last vanilla campaign that pushed me all the way across the river by doing this but they didn't do that here not sure why.

- Definitely seeing the variability happening, sometimes to my benefit (attack the convoy I got an extra unit of Cav) others to my detriment.

- Haven't had a chance to capture any arty yet, I think because I'm still automatically afraid of attacking them like I was in the last mod

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1 hour ago, sgtTomColin said:

Can we have a new config option that we can use the original weapon stats?

the balanced musket weapon stats is very history, but not very fun.

the balanced rapid fire rifle(like spencer)is quite weak.

So can we have an option to use the original weapon stats in config excel.(its even better if you can separate the option in infantry, skirmisher, cav and cannon)

The weapon stats are stored in the assets file so this isn't something that can reasonably be made configurable. If you're willing to engage in some hex editing I posted a guide on how to edit the weapon stats recently. If you're going to do this I would really recommend specific tweaks rather than a straight revert back to the base game weapon stats. Rifles in the mod for example start out dealing about half as much damage as they do in the base game. Perks bring that damage back up towards base game levels. Using the current perks + base game weapons would result in extremely high levels of damage.

Can you be more specific about your issues with the musket and the spencer? Muskets in the mod are intended to be limited use specialty weapons in terms of fire. If you try to use them the same way you would rifles they will be terrible. Their melee stats are quite good though. Spencers felt pretty good the last time I used them so I'm unsure what the issue is there.

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19 minutes ago, madmatg said:

CSA MG 1st Bull Run report - the union units are attempting to make it across the river definitely, they are still coming in groups of 2 or 3 at most instead of all attacking at once, on the last vanilla campaign that pushed me all the way across the river by doing this but they didn't do that here not sure why.

- Definitely seeing the variability happening, sometimes to my benefit (attack the convoy I got an extra unit of Cav) others to my detriment.

- Haven't had a chance to capture any arty yet, I think because I'm still automatically afraid of attacking them like I was in the last mod

The variability is great, something a bit different each time from my perspective.

My last attempt at Bull Run was a classic back and forth for Henry Hill; the Union won, but the first division of I Corp took 75% casualties plugging the gaps left by the likes of Howard who seems to retreat at the first volley.

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On 8/1/2018 at 11:54 PM, pandakraut said:

The scaling counts the allied troops which are all huge, so not a lot you can do there. It might be worth fighting an extra few thousand troops to get your units a bit larger. Those troops will all be spread out at least.

What's your current setup?

A lot of my rookie units intended only to delay or melee I used captains on and didn't care about the efficiency penalties.

Starting setup for my current 1.21 campaign:

 

Set up prior to Bull Run:

 

 

Edited by BCH
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9 hours ago, pandakraut said:

A lot of my rookie units intended only to delay or melee I used captains on and didn't care about the efficiency penalties.

Therein lies my problem, not enough lower level officers by the time I refit for Shiloh; I was dropping 15,000 to 20 some thousand per officers for brigades with raw recruits. I know part of the issue was the Bull Run battle.

While it was fun because it played out close to the historical battle before the Union lines collapsed, the cost of the Union win in this case was not made up over the next two minor battles:

image.thumb.jpeg.f4165334c701589b52857a15da1fa3af.jpeg

I need to figure out the strategy for keeping the barracks full of replacement officeers without compromising the rest of the camp activities.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, BCH said:

Starting setup for my current 1.21 campaign:

I'd argue that it's to early to invest in medicine and that early politics is of debatable use. Early on you need to get men on the field more than you need to try and preserve experienced troops so the medicine points would be better invested in training or economy. Training can be especially helpful for the union as their base recruit stats are terrible. Economy will help a lot with both officer and weapon costs. Politics I basically only max last, but numerous people prefer pushing it up first so up to you on that one. If you do invest in it, try to get it maxed first as the bonus per point scales.

9 minutes ago, BCH said:

Therein lies my problem, not enough lower level officers by the time I refit for Shiloh; I was dropping 15,000 to 20 some thousand per officers for brigades with raw recruits. I know part of the issue was the Bull Run battle.

I think this may be the lack of econ points. With 4 points, 2/3 xp colonels cost about 10k. I cleared out the barracks so I was able to buy multiple extra captains. 4 econ, 5 training/AO, 1 logistics/recon was my career setup. After Shiloh I start working on getting medicine maxed.

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1 hour ago, pandakraut said:

I'd argue that it's to early to invest in medicine and that early politics is of debatable use. Early on you need to get men on the field more than you need to try and preserve experienced troops so the medicine points would be better invested in training or economy. Training can be especially helpful for the union as their base recruit stats are terrible. Economy will help a lot with both officer and weapon costs. Politics I basically only max last, but numerous people prefer pushing it up first so up to you on that one. If you do invest in it, try to get it maxed first as the bonus per point scales.

I think this may be the lack of econ points. With 4 points, 2/3 xp colonels cost about 10k. I cleared out the barracks so I was able to buy multiple extra captains. 4 econ, 5 training/AO, 1 logistics/recon was my career setup. After Shiloh I start working on getting medicine maxed.

Thanks for the  tip, I am starting another campaign to experiment with the career start points.

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On 8/2/2018 at 11:52 AM, BCH said:

another campaign to experiment with the career start points.

During the initial phase, I made a foolish tactical mistake in game play and decided to re-load a save from the beginning of the Train Station, forgetting that action would trigger the reinforcement bug. The reinforcements were incredibly huge, (I will post the  screenshot late.. Philippi was never going to be in question). Since the only thing that I am trying to get out of this campaign is a better understanding of how to allocate career points in the early part of the campaign, I decided to just do the battle.

image.thumb.jpeg.6c880cee04885d35773fc9b500a1a145.jpeg

To reduce the Union troops for subsequent battles (to avoid unrealistic scaling); during the defense of Philippi I repeatedly charged the three brigades which carry over to Distress Call to get their numbers down to what is normal. Yes, that is a battery with 1000 men..

Distress Call played out with close to normal number of troops.

On to Bull Run

I saved as soon as the first Union troops (just two brigades showing) arrive east of Stone Bridge; I need to have decent battle here to have a reasonable idea of the success of the current career point placement that sets the stage for Shiloh.

I get three batteries instead of two, all 6pdr. CSA gets 3 batteries of what must have been Napoleons because they out range the 6pds. Union troops get decimated by the CSA batteries, and CSA units rush across the ford and Stone Bridge.. so OK, change my strategy for this area, and I load the save.

What now appears as the starting Union force are the two normal artillery batteries, and about four times the amount of troops in the first brigades coming in for the Union.

image.thumb.jpeg.4294a76d37a45f872875012b7d473551.jpeg

This looks like the bug from Philippi.

 

Edited by BCH
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On 8/3/2018 at 1:03 PM, BCH said:

This looks like the bug from Philippi.

 

That looks like just the variance stuff. There are enforced minimum unit sizes which in the early battles can result in larger units. Undecided if I want to change that or not.

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9 hours ago, madmatg said:

I've destroyed a number of arty brigades but haven't had any surrender yet, has anyone had this work?

I'll check it tomorrow. I was forcing increased surrender rates when I originally tested so maybe I overlooked something. Or the conditions are just to strict for units as relatively small as artillery are.

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On 8/5/2018 at 1:22 AM, pandakraut said:

That looks like just the variance stuff. There are enforced minimum unit sizes which in the early battles can result in larger units. Undecided if I want to change that or not.

It certainly made for an interesting battle at Bull Run; totally different flow this last time for me. It required me to make on the fly adjustments to the Union lines as the battle progressed. The end game is pretty much the same because the objective for both sides is to take and hold Henry Hill. In this battle I constantly had to keep a rear guard active because one CSA unit had routed to my rear, and another made a long flanking maneuver to to my rear.

End positions: ( I had apparently destroyed many of the initial CSA brigades during a running battle on the Union left; where I was able to curve the Union right through and around Matthews Hill to attack the CSA flank and rear)

 

This is all that remains of the CSA forces near the end of the battle.

I ended up with acceptable losses for the win:

 

 

Edited by BCH
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On 8/2/2018 at 10:04 AM, pandakraut said:

I think this may be the lack of econ points. With 4 points, 2/3 xp colonels cost about 10k. I cleared out the barracks so I was able to buy multiple extra captains. 4 econ, 5 training/AO, 1 logistics/recon was my career setup. After Shiloh I start working on getting medicine maxed. 

My after Bull Run career points now look like this:

image.thumb.jpeg.6705d95f5810c549545305eb2c4ad2e8.jpeg

 

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Still not seeing the strategy for Shiloh on the MG setting...

 

That is actually rather good work for being  out numbered and facing brigades up to 4,300 men. Just could not hold the Landing against repeated rushes of OP sized brigades. I don't remember when the rest of Buells divisions come in as far as the end time goes.

Career points looked like this prior to Shiloh:

 

And I was able to bring 18,088 troops to the battle. I choose my strongest corp to defend Shiloh Church, but that strategy makes it rather unlikely they can pull back to the Landing intact. When I withdraw immediately from Shiloh Church, that just leaves the mostly undamaged CSA brigades massed to continue north.

This time most of the CSA 22,773 casualties came from taking Shiloh Church; I Corp was relatively intact but way to exhausted to safely go north.

II Corp was assigned the flank next to the river, and I pulled all troops to the area of the VP closest to the river.  This delayed quite a few CSA brigades. I kept moving II Corp units northward, but CSA brigades kept pressing that flank, and I was unable to get enough of II Corp to the Landing.

Buell's initial reinforcements are worthless even as cannon fodder...

I did not try to seriously defend the Hornets Nest, other than a skirmisher unit, and a brigade of muskets; surprisingly, they routed the first two CSA brigades that attacked.. not sure how that happened.

I withdrew Buell's brigades to the Landing, along with another brigade and 3 skirmisher units; they are eventually joined by two more brigades and 1 more skirmisher unit. Just wasn't enough and Buell's brigades mostly rout at the slightest amount of casualties.

 

The next go around, I will swap the Corps assignments; the biggest concern is that II Corp is not on par with I Corp, they will not be able to exact that many CSA casualties at the Church.

 

Edited by BCH
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Wherever your first corps starts you have to be able to get them back to the landing. As you noted that corps holds most of your firepower so having it isolated makes holding the landing very difficult. Instead of retreating to the line your first corps is holding I usually move to the thick line of trees to the northeast, below the strength part of the end battle screen. I try to hold this and inflict more casualties until the AI starts massing up again. A few units might get routed as part of the retreat. I usually try to have a few rookie brigades in 1st corps to pull out last and take whatever punishment results. If your units are exhausted prior to both sides being combined or the landing opening up you are probably getting stuck in to many melees. With 1k sized units these must be avoided whenever possible against the large brigades. If you are forced into melee, stop chasing as soon as you can to preserve stamina.

Buell's brigades will do little damage outside of melee. They mostly go into the fortifications and take the initial charge while the experienced units fire into melee or counter charge as needed. You want to be pushing any non musket skirmishers and any other units you can spare down both flanks once the AI bunches up in front of the landing. Getting to any of the artillery will be hard, but if you have snipers or counter battery artillery the sooner you can afford to start taking out artillery instead of breaking up charges. Day 2 is more of the same but you'll have more allied troops to soak up fire.

Multiple in battle saves are worth considering here, especially if a particular phase goes well or you get to the landing in good shape. Sometimes the AI makes better decisions than others and it's possible for the battle to end in a single mass charge if you get unlucky. Also worth noting is that the random elements will be very rough here. If one of those giant brigades rolls to increase it's size and then doubles it'll be a bad time.

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On 8/6/2018 at 12:15 AM, pandakraut said:

Multiple in battle saves are worth considering here, especially if a particular phase goes well or you get to the landing in good shape. Sometimes the AI makes better decisions than others and it's possible for the battle to end in a single mass charge if you get unlucky.

Massed charges have been the standard for the last three attempts. The other problem I am having is the CSA brigades advance twice as fast as the Union units pull back, sometimes even when the Union is in quick-march.

Thought I stood a fair chance at this point:

 

I was able to get I Corp back to defensive positions in the tree lines at the Landing, along with my top batteries

 

Edited by BCH
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