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J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 7/11/2019 1.25.1 Hotfix

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1.25.1a Mod - Shiloh

I was able to stretch the defense of the Landing down to under 3:00 to go on the timer, using Pandakraut's camp strategy for Shiloh. However, in the end attrition to the Union brigades allowed the CSA AI to take and hold the VP.

The factors from my point of view:

1. Scaling at Shiloh is horrible, and I am guessing that is not an easy fix.

2. I could only bringing 26 brigades to the battle, and some of them were rather small skirmisher units. 26 is not enough in my opinion to be successful at Shiloh as the Union.

3. The gunboats were less effective with the 1.25.1a Mod, resulting in greatly increased pressure on that flank.

4. The damage reduction of 40% to artillery, allowed CSA brigades in open ground to take multiple canister rounds from 2* batteries and not waver. This is partially due to the size of the CSA brigades.

 

The plus side of the last attempt:

1. Two 500 man skirmisher units, armed with rifles, kept several CSA artillery occupied mid-map; as such those CSA batteries were not a factor late game. These Union skirmishers also helped spread out the CSA brigades

2. Two Union cavalry units managed to destroy one 500+ man CSA battery; and kept a CSA cavalry brigade occupied in the far Southeastern part of the final map. (One of the Union cavalry units was lost, but since the entire battle was also lost, that is a mute point).

3. Union batteries for the most part made it back to the Landing for the defense there; these batteries had kills up into the 3,000 area (keeping in mind that is only basically one CSA brigade at Shiloh).

 

For me it is back to the save right after Distress Call since I am in very good shape after that battle.

Objectives:

1. Less damage to my army in subsequent battles

2. Increase the available 'dollars' to build up an army of at least 30+ brigades for Shiloh

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3 hours ago, Waidizss said:

What a tiny update feelsbadman :(

The main update was from 1.24 to 1.25. 1.25.1a was just a hotfix to correct some bugs in 1.25. The full 1.25 changelog can be found in the Mod/Rebalance folder in the zip file and hopefully that isn't considered a tiny amount of changes.

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3 hours ago, Waidizss said:

What a tiny update feelsbadman :(

1.25.1 Changes:
Timer Changes
- Adjusted reinforcement timers at Union Gaines Mill and Malvern Hill.
- Union Shiloh timers reduced slightly.
 
If you mean the above changes.. they are desirable from my point of view.
 
And the only part of 1.25 itself that is currently giving me heartburn is the 40% reduction in artillery damage; and I am experimenting with tactics to overcome the issue.

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4 hours ago, BCH said:
 I am experimenting with tactics to overcome the issue.

as an example:

My goal to come up with an effective strategy at Shiloh on MG level with the 1.25.1a Mod, I have gone back to Distress Call to try and maximize my army for Shiloh.

In the past, I have done well with Distress Call with a make up of 4 rifle brigades, 2 skirmisher brigades, and 4 batteries; the strategy is to let the CSA AI take the Northern VP and then decimate them in open ground as they attempt to take the other VP; and then retaking the Northern VP (capturing the AI supply, and keeping the AI commander from the field is usually achievable).

With the reduction in artillery damage; the above strategy is still doable, but I am taking more casualties than I want.

Experiment 1: same Union force make up; but the units were arranged more to the Northwest (in the wooded area not quite due west of the North VP). This worked fairly well, it put batteries within shell range of the North VP much earlier in the battle, and provided enfilade fire on CSA AI units moving toward the South VP. I had to send a rifle brigade to assist the Union AI in defending the South VP, basically again ending up with more casualties than desired.. still a win though.

Experiment 2: I replaced one of the skirmisher brigades with another battery, bringing the total to 5. I position the units a bit closer to the South VP this time. This starts out with a lot more routs and withdrawals by the CSA AI brigades (although I will say, no brigade should continue advancing after taking canister rounds from 5 batteries at almost simultaneously).

The above mentioned brigade continued its advance and charges at the last minute into a 2* Union rifle brigade which pulled back slightly allowing two Union rifle brigade to enfilade both flanks of the CSA brigade. The 2* Union brigade was backed by a 12 gun Napoleon battery. The CSA brigade routs.. mills around, routs again, and then retreats through the 2* brigade and the  Union battery ending up in the Union rear. Still a Union win.. just not quite what I want

 

Experiment 2, second replay.

Slight variation in the positioning of the Union batteries, to provide better overlapping fire; this battle is progressing much better at the moment. One slight change in tactics, since the CSA units can only reach a position inside of the South VP by going through the 'gate's on the West and East sides of the fortification.. I have set up to have more direct fire on those area when the AI tries to get in.

I was not able to keep the CSA commander pinned down in a corner this time, but I was able to seize the CSA supply wagon and force two CSA batteries in the proximity  to go into battery far out of range. It will be a much longer time for them to get in position for the main battle area.

At this point, going from 4 to 5 batteries is making up for the 40% reduction in damage; at least for Distress Call.

I will suggest that, if it is going to remain at the 40% reduction, default canister damage be increased a bit.

 

Edited by BCH
spelling

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I think you're approaching this the wrong way. Artillery is still good but it can't win battles entirely on its own anymore. Instead of increasing the number of artillery units used early on I would actually recommend decreasing them so you can train up more infantry. Expanding to a few more units after Bull Run makes sense because of how much they can drop casualties at River Crossing and Crossroads, but you really want to get your infantry stats trained up as well.

With the updates to the AI charge logic artillery counts for far less than it used to. If you have a line of 5 artillery units behind 4 infantry units the AI is going to look at that and realize it has more than twice the men you do in its 9 units and just roll over you. You need more infantry units to give the AI any pause in trying to just charge you. Especially at Shiloh the artillery will still be necessary to provide the canister damage to actually drive off a unit that makes a determined charge, but they need a much more solid backing of infantry to have that chance.

Artillery is also much more specific in its role now. If you want canister to be effective you have to be using the canister damage perks, but doing so will make the cannon far less effective outside of canister range. You can start to overcome this with 2 and 3* artillery units, but it's much harder to just throw down a line of napoleons and 24pdrs and have them both be effective at routing charging units with canister and at a grinding down units with shell fire.

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2 hours ago, pandakraut said:

I think you're approaching this the wrong way.

Thanks for that thought.. (seriously, I always appreciate a critique)

In the first redux of Distress Call I only had 3 batteries and 6 rifle brigades with 1 skirmisher brigades.. It might have just been very bad luck, but the CSA brigades just rolled through the Union brigades in the woods, despite taking battery fire from Napoleans, 10pdr Ord, and 10prd Parrotts across all that open ground from the North VP point southward.

After I get done playing around with the 4,5,1 arrangement I currently have at Distress Call, I will go back to a 6,3,1 arrangement and give it another try. Even an 7, 3 arrangement and just use the Union AI skirmishers to cover flanks might be worth a try. Not sure I can do with less than 3 batteries, as some counter battery fire is needed against the CSA AI batteries

I did find on this last play through that I am in, enticing the CSA AI to actually try to get into the fortification resulted in more casualties for them.. and all routed, and then took even more casualties trying to get back out.

An idea just came to mind.. I am going to try an 8,2 arrangement next for Distress Call; I just remembered a battle formation used at Gettysburg for a portion of the battle (nice to visit those battlefields and study the formation displays).

Edited by BCH
add'l text

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22 minutes ago, BCH said:

After I get done playing around with the 4,5,1 arrangement I currently have at Distress Call, I will go back to a 6,3,1 arrangement and give it another try. Even an 7, 3 arrangement and just use the Union AI skirmishers to cover flanks might be worth a try. Not sure I can do with less than 3 batteries, as some counter battery fire is needed against the CSA AI batteries

This could be true with this setup, I usually always deal with the arty with cav units so I'm not sure what needs to be done to get rid of them if you don't take the cav.

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4 hours ago, pandakraut said:

If you have a line of 5 artillery units behind 4 infantry units the AI is going to look at that and realize it has more than twice the men you do in its 9 units and just roll over you.

Well.. I believe CSA BG Johnson has been cashiered.

Pandakraut was very accurate in describing what AI would eventually do; the AI started stacking brigades, six or so (mostly fresh) and pushed toward the Union center (Union brigades were positioned in the woods west of the South VP, with the exception of the AI brigades and my skirmisher unit which were set up on the Union right flank to provide enfilade fire against attacking CSA brigades).

I believe the only thing that kept them from rolling over the Union line (and it was close at least twice) was the fact that the Union batteries were positioned in a slight crescent behind the rifle brigades. This meant that once a CSA brigade (sometimes two at once) closed on the Union line; they were flanked by at least two batteries each time.  The CSA AI was persistent,  extremely so, they would back off and advance in a group time after time. Most of the attacks were against a 2* Union rifle brigade (which started with 950 men, lost 249, and killed 1,219).

After the attacks slowed down, it was a matter of picking off the CSA batteries with the Ordinance battery and the Parrott battery (assisted by my 500 man skirmisher unit which managed somehow to remain hidden while it flanked CSA batteries)

I would not recommend this strategy unless one is prepared to extensively micro-manage the Union batteries ( and remember that you have a pause key).

Most of my losses were the Union AI..

Total Infantry and skirmisher losses total 762 for the units which are in my camp, with 98 manpower lost from the batteries.  The really good news is that two of the first division brigades are over 1,000 and will not  need any replacements for Bull Run. A brigade raised in the 2nd division is almost 900 strong after the battle.

 

Now to try the 8 rifle brigades and 2 battery strategy..

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2 hours ago, BCH said:

Now to try the 8 rifle brigades and 2 battery strategy.. 

This 8/2 arrangement is turning out to be rather interesting.. I will not finish until tomorrow evening. Suffice it to say, the CSA brigades are not making much progress.

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8/2 worked well..

The infantry brigades were set up in one line of 4, backed by the other 4 brigades spaced a brigade width back:  =  = =  =  with about half a brigade length between each in the line.

The two Union batteries were positioned more toward the Union right flank.

I had a bit of luck right off.. a CSA battery came across the river right at the east bridge, and then blundered into the Union AI cavalry and two Union AI skirmisher units.. it was almost destroyed before it could get into battery, not sure it ever got off a shot.

Note: one Union rifle brigade was only at 500 (available funds limited the amount of weapons) I should have just made this unit a skirmisher brigade in retrospect. Another rifle brigade took too many casualties to be able to economically replace them. Both units were disbanded and weapons distributed to new units.

 

Winning this battle gives me for Bull Run, an army of 6,860  men with 34 guns, and 15,000 in supply.

The 4,5,1 arrangement gave me for Bull Run, an army of 5,932 men with 41 guns, and 10,000 in supply.

The armies are almost exactly equal in regard to rifle brigade experience; one 2*, three 1*, and two 0* brigade  (only going with 5 rifle brigades from the 4,51 group, so only one 0* there)/

The big difference.. 5 batteries each, but the 4,5,1 group has one battery at 2* and four at 1*; the 8/2 group only has a 2* and a 1*, the rest are 0*.

I am not sure at this point which army has more of an advantage.. one will have 6 rifle brigades at Bull Run to gain experience; and the other will have only 5. The latter has the edge in experienced artillery.

 

Guess I play both through up to Shiloh and see where I am at...

Edited by BCH
correction

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Did the guns go back to the original names in the 1.25.1a update?  I was looking through these posts and didn't see a clear answer.  Also, the skirmishers don't seem to be able to use infantry weapons anymore.  There is also the possibility that I installed the mod wrong.

 

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On 7/18/2019 at 8:42 PM, BCH said:

Guess I play both through up to Shiloh and see where I am at...

Well the 8/2 group did fine at Bull Run; I went in to that battle infantry heavy.. but prevailed with good advancement. Took the brigadier in charge of a battery to major general..

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On 7/19/2019 at 8:09 AM, gracchus said:

Did the guns go back to the original names in the 1.25.1a update?  I was looking through these posts and didn't see a clear answer.  Also, the skirmishers don't seem to be able to use infantry weapons anymore.  There is also the possibility that I installed the mod wrong.

 

Check the mod.. skirmishers should be able to use infantry weapons.

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On 7/19/2019 at 8:09 AM, gracchus said:

Did the guns go back to the original names in the 1.25.1a update?  I was looking through these posts and didn't see a clear answer.  Also, the skirmishers don't seem to be able to use infantry weapons anymore.  There is also the possibility that I installed the mod wrong.

 

That sounds like the mod is at least partially installed incorrectly. Most of the weapon names should be modified, so check that the resources.assets file was overwritten. Also, if the dll is installed correctly you should see the mod name in the main menu version.

While likely not the main issue, make sure you have at least one infantry unit in your army before trying to give infantry weapons to skirmishers. The mod relies on that infantry unit for it to work.

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On 7/20/2019 at 9:32 PM, pandakraut said:

That sounds like the mod is at least partially installed incorrectly. Most of the weapon names should be modified, so check that the resources.assets file was overwritten. Also, if the dll is installed correctly you should see the mod name in the main menu version.

While likely not the main issue, make sure you have at least one infantry unit in your army before trying to give infantry weapons to skirmishers. The mod relies on that infantry unit for it to work.

You are correct, I messed up the install.  Fixed it now.  Thank you for the response.

Also wanted to express my thanks for all the great work represented here.  This was a great game even in vanilla.  It had flaws but I loved it.  Now, however, the game is incredible.  I've enjoyed adapting to the new perks and changes in artillery.  It's easily my favorite game.  Thank you again.

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Don't know if anyone sense has experienced this, but saving and reloading during the intro mission with either the Union or the Confederacy causes the reinforcements to spawn at around 3000 men, on legendary difficulty at least. This just makes the mission easier as the rebels, but ~6000 vetted men coming back to camp is pretty useful as the feds 😅. The battery of napoleons was also around 26 cannon, good for stockpiling.

Love the mod! Thanks for all the work done! 

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1 hour ago, burbankcadet said:

Don't know if anyone sense has experienced this, but saving and reloading during the intro mission with either the Union or the Confederacy causes the reinforcements to spawn at around 3000 men, on legendary difficulty at least. This just makes the mission easier as the rebels, but ~6000 vetted men coming back to camp is pretty useful as the feds 😅. The battery of napoleons was also around 26 cannon, good for stockpiling.

Love the mod! Thanks for all the work done! 

This will occur on all difficulties. I thought it occurred in the base game as well, but it's been a while since I looked into it and don't remember for sure. No idea why it is happening, but having a built in exploit for people who would prefer to never play the starting battles again isn't that bad either

Edited by pandakraut

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On 7/18/2019 at 8:42 PM, BCH said:

Guess I play both through up to Shiloh and see where I am at...

Managed to have 34 assorted brigades on MG level for Shiloh..

It wasn't even close..

CSA massive brigades rolled up both flanks. Union gunboats are back to being ineffective, which means the Union left is as vulnerable as the right.

CSA AI solution for Union skirmishers fighting a delaying action was simply to charge en-masse 6,000 against 300..

I used what I call the Pandakraut strategy.. it worked only to a point. and then the numbers just overwhelmed the Union.

Loss of Union officers destroyed the morale of at least a third of the Union rifle brigades and then they were slaughtered or captured..

 

I am at a complete loss on how to win at Shiloh with the current mod.

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42 minutes ago, BCH said:

CSA massive brigades rolled up both flanks. Union gunboats are back to being ineffective, which means the Union left is as vulnerable as the right.

The gunboats account for 3-4k kills in my battle which is more than any single artillery unit that I was able to field. I think they are about in line with where they should be as opposed to ridiculous like most artillery was in the prior version.

On MG the AI likely fields more muskets than on Legendary which is going to make it a bit more charge happy. Since most of your units are going to be smaller you need to keep them in tight formations to have any chance of convincing the AI to not charge or to stop charging. Baiting charges with skirmish units that have the speed perk and then running off to the side to allow for flanking shots and dragging the AI through bad terrain might also help.

If you had a run where you lost a lot of officers you may have just had bad luck and another attempt might go better. Bad luck with variance rolls, AI perk selections, etc can all make certain attempts very likely to fail.

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8 hours ago, pandakraut said:

If you had a run where you lost a lot of officers you may have just had bad luck

Bad luck indeed.. I had 9 wounded officers before Shiloh; and then had 4 or 5 killed, and 7 wounded at Shiloh before losing the VP at the Landing.

 

8 hours ago, pandakraut said:

The gunboats account for 3-4k kills in my battle

In my battle, a gunboat was lucky to get 4 or 5 kills out of a flanking shot, and most of the time it was 1-2 kills.

 

I am going to restart Shiloh of course.. but it is incredibly frustrating.

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If people are regularly winning at Shiloh on the MG level with the 1.25.1a mod.. I would like to know how you do it.

Because I am no longer even coming close to pulling it off.

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4 minutes ago, BCH said:

When does Medicine begin to reduce Wounds and Deaths for officers?

Every point provides a percentage reduction. The medicine tooltip currently don't display the correct percentage until you actually assign the point unfortunately.

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21 hours ago, pandakraut said:

Every point provides a percentage reduction. The medicine tooltip currently don't display the correct percentage until you actually assign the point unfortunately.

ah...  ok thanks..

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