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J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 05/06/2023 1.28.4


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1 hour ago, nik_nv said:

I have an idea. Its supposed to be there a cap stating if when the unit is destroyed (and become that retreating crowd moving out of the field), I guess it's 5%. You can try to find it and increase. 

Was thinking of something like that the other day as well. Something like when a unit hits 0 morale it has some percentage chance to surrender, if it doesn't surrender it shatters. Likely need to build in some kind of system to lower morale damage impact as morale approaches 0 as it's a bit to easy to achieve that state currently. Hoping to have time to look into testing that idea over the weekend.

You can find the exact conditions for shattering the the game uses in my hidden mechanics thread.

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Likely need to build in some kind of system to lower morale damage impact as morale approaches 0 as it's a bit to easy to achieve that state

That should be tested extensively... At the moment there are occasions where AI's  units just will not break, even though they are fired upon from multiple flanks (check one of my Shiloh Battle posts in this thread)... Also, apart from game-play reasons, this thing should be done with utmost care for historic reasons also. For example the famous Stonewall Brigade after Chancellorsville was left with around 1.500 men. In 1864 and Overland Campaign the fighting at the Mule Shoe virtually gobbled up the entire Brigade with a regiment of 200 men being all that is left. Also, several authors (like McPherson) suggested that average soldier/unit morale in the ACW was indeed very, very high because units were made from men of the same County and more often than not they were bonded by family and friendship ties. So mass routs or breaking of units were not very common and not something that could be easily achieved.

There are ample examples, like Union Irish Brigade that didn't cease to exist after failed assault on the Marye's Heights at Fredericksburg. In the western theater there are even more units that sustained 60-80% casualties in a single battle and yet they still didn't dissolve as a unit.

If anything, I would personally like to see surrender mod expanded as it already feels intuitive and historically more accurate than mass breaking of the enemy's units. However this is just my opinion and all I can do is offer some historical reference as to why things could be done this or that way.

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6 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

There are ample examples, like Union Irish Brigade that didn't cease to exist after failed assault on the Marye's Heights at Fredericksburg. In the western theater there are even more units that sustained 60-80% casualties in a single battle and yet they still didn't dissolve as a unit.

A change this extensive would most likely come with a configuration option to disable it. For the AI, any men remaining in a shattered unit stay in it's army pool and the units will always be back in the next battle. For the player, I'm going to try and get shattered men to return to the recruit pool in some fashion along with officers and weapons. It'd be better if the unit itself would remain intact, but I don't think I can manage that.

Maybe think of this more as the unit losing cohesion for the day and falling back rather than dissolving as a unit.

6 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

That should be tested extensively... At the moment there are occasions where AI's  units just will not break, even though they are fired upon from multiple flanks (check one of my Shiloh Battle posts in this thread)...

This logic wouldn't come into play in that situation. Units start routing between 40-50 morale. Anything I add probably wouldn't even start taking effect until 25 or lower.

6 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

If anything, I would personally like to see surrender mod expanded as it already feels intuitive and historically more accurate than mass breaking of the enemy's units. However this is just my opinion and all I can do is offer some historical reference as to why things could be done this or that way.

I think the surrender mod has balance concerns. It is fairly easy to force most of the enemy army to surrender each battle. Variations on several of the changes it makes will be getting added in the next version though. The big changes being that wounded officers and condition now affect the probability and there is no longer a restriction on surrendering when friendly units are nearby.

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23 hours ago, pandakraut said:

I think the surrender mod has balance concerns. It is fairly easy to force most of the enemy army to surrender each battle. Variations on several of the changes it makes will be getting added in the next version though. The big changes being that wounded officers and condition now affect the probability and there is no longer a restriction on surrendering when friendly units are nearby.

That mod is something.. I usually manage to capture 60%++ of the enemy's army. There should be more strict limitations for that case when the unit decides to surrender, like its commander should be dead or wounded and the unit has lost 50% of its men for 0*-1* and up to 80% for 2*-3* together with morale drop to 0 and there are some wavering units around.. Otherwise almost any charge for AI may end up with some surrendered units.

P.S. I easily win that battle at the Mule Shoe for CSA (with 50%+ of enemy army surrendered..). How comes its possible..

Edited by nik_nv
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5 minutes ago, nik_nv said:

That mod is something.. I usually manage to capture 60%++ of the enemy's army. There should be more strict limitations for that case when the unit decides to surrender, like its commander should be dead or wounded and the unit has lost 50% of its men for 0*-1* and up to 80% for 2*-3* together with morale drop to 0 and there are some wavering units around.. Otherwise almost any charge for AI may end up with some surrendered units.

The general surrender algorithm for the game is setup so that the factors you mention increase the chance of a die roll succeeding when a surrender check is made. At least in the base game that chance never goes to 100%, not sure about the surrender mod as the probabilities go much higher there.

9 minutes ago, nik_nv said:

P.S. I easily win that battle at the Mule Shoe for CSA (with 50%+ of enemy army surrendered..). How comes its possible..

Not sure what approach you used, but like most battles in the game Mule Shoe can be broken pretty easily. Something Compass recently played it in the base game with 5k losses for 50k kills.

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11 minutes ago, jamieva said:

Ok I downloaded the mod but i'm not super computer savvy to figure out where my game is installed.  Is there a default location that I should be looking in that Steam installs it?

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Ultimate General Civil War\Ultimate General Civil War_Data is the standard location you want to extract the zip into.

You can also right click on the game in your steam library, select properties, select local files tab, then select browse local files. That will bring you to the folder that contains the Ultimate General Civil War_data folder you want to extract things in.

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After playing even more I have some other stuff to report about... My MJ Union Campaign has gone up to Cold Harbor... All the Major Battles so far have been a cakewalk actually... Union players that rely heavily on use of artillery units have nothing to worry about really... If using mostly 14pdr James, Whithworths, 4.5inch siege artillery, 20pdr Parrots, 10pdr Parrots and 24pdr Howitzers your campaign is won very easily... Regarding the artillery perks, IMO I don't see any use of anything but perks that focus on long range fire. even for 24pdr Howitzers the long range perks work great as they increase your range considerably as well as accuracy which coupled with their high damage output makes them murderous. Only other artillery perk I find useful is horse artillery perk. I find it quite funny seeing my Horse artillery towing 20pdr Parrots around the field at the speed of light. The Horse artillery perk should be limited to certain (lighter) types of guns and should stop at 3-inch Ordnance and 24pdr Howitzer. I say that about the 24pdr howitzer because despite the weight of the shot the 24pdr Howitzer was quite a light canon. To test this theory about "uber artillery" I have started campaign with CSA just to see how and can they cope with the Union artillery Wise. I know they historically couldn't but I am curious how they will fare in game.

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2 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

Regarding the artillery perks, IMO I don't see any use of anything but perks that focus on long range fire. even for 24pdr Howitzers the long range perks work great as they increase your range considerably as well as accuracy which coupled with their high damage output makes them murderous.

This is how I use them as well and yes the long range perks are to generically good. Though other players have reported very good results from the reload and canister perks as well. Depends a lot on what play style you favor.

2 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

The Horse artillery perk should be limited to certain (lighter) types of guns and should stop at 3-inch Ordnance and 24pdr Howitzer.

This is not possible to implement.

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4 hours ago, Waidizss said:

Also, any plans for update?

We've been working on a number of smaller changes, but the next major goal is to rework the perks and the systems surrounding them. Unfortunately real life is getting in the way at the moment so we don't have an estimated release date.

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On 3/30/2019 at 9:51 PM, pandakraut said:
On 3/30/2019 at 9:40 PM, nik_nv said:

P.S. I easily win that battle at the Mule Shoe for CSA (with 50%+ of enemy army surrendered..). How comes its possible..

Not sure what approach you used, but like most battles in the game Mule Shoe can be broken pretty easily. Something Compass recently played it in the base game with 5k losses for 50k kills.

There is no strategy at all, I just wait until union units start to charge.. and they go to my rear and outside the map surrendered 😄

The remaining artillery and those hard headed units I just clean up later.. 

Edited by nik_nv
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So I just downloaded the mod and played through two battles. Interesting so far, but everything seems slower, including match time. Is this a function of the mod, do I just not remember the base game much, or should I just ff through slow parts?

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6 hours ago, coinich said:

So I just downloaded the mod and played through two battles. Interesting so far, but everything seems slower, including match time. Is this a function of the mod, do I just not remember the base game much, or should I just ff through slow parts?

The base game speed in the mod has been reduced. The default speed will be slightly slower than half speed was in the base game. This can take a bit to adjust to so you may want to make liberal use of the 2x or 3x speeds initially.

There are a lot of changes at this point so you may want to skim the second post in this thread as all of the major changes up to now are listed. If you have any other questions feel free to ask and I hope you enjoy the mod.

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16 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

@pandakraut I have a question... what the heck is DNC RIFLE you put in game instead of the Whitworth? 🤔

Jonny told me at some point but I have since forgotten. Will get back to you once we dig up the answer in our notes.

In terms of the gameplay that thing is one of the best infantry rifles in the game that sadly can't be equipped by infantry. Doesn't have the range to be used by snipers but large units of skirmishers with some cover perks can be extremely effective with them.

Edited by pandakraut
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I find mounted infantry weapons really underwhelming at the moment...Which is really kind of a problem mobility wise and option wise for the player...But...I will build a mounted infantry division at one point for sure and see what will be the best was to use them...Just need to do more testing to find their use...

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6 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

I find mounted infantry weapons really underwhelming at the moment...Which is really kind of a problem mobility wise and option wise for the player...But...I will build a mounted infantry division at one point for sure and see what will be the best was to use them...Just need to do more testing to find their use...

It's hard to stack enough accuracy to get good damage out of them at the moment. Not sure if we have much planned for changes currently, will have to see where things are at once we get the other weapon types updated.

Edited by pandakraut
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Just back in the last few weeks after about 5 months or so..

 

The latest version on BG (correction) mode is quite different; a significant improvement from my perspective. I have played the Union up through Stones River. The battles have been tough, but doable, even with the supersized CSA brigades at Shiloh (3,000+). Again, only from my perspective, I do not have to 'game' the system to win battles. Period tactics now work; although the AI does throw in some surprises.

I have been able to use cavalry as intended; scouting and harassment (and the occasional complete destruction of an isolated artillery battery).

Incidentally,  I never retreated the Union lines in the first two segments of Stones River. The lines buckled and bent; but the artillery batteries backing the line broke the CSA advances.  A 500 strong cavalry brigade was deployed to the South flank of the CSA line and harassed the flank and rear of the CSA forces. I am not sure of how much penalty is given to being flanked and rear flanked; but that Union cavalry brigade kept many CSA units doing an about face.

 

Nice work J&P.

Edited by BCH
should have typed BG not MG,
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Did we whip them or did we whip them?

MJ-CSA 2nd Bull Run 1.jpg

MJ-CSA 2nd Bull Run 2.jpg

MJ-CSA 2nd Bull Run 3.jpg

Notice the amount of kills for the 12th Texas Valverde Battery of 14 pounders and 1st Virginia Sharpshooters.

I am pretty satisfied with my army setup at the moment... Next battle to come is Antietam and I expect heavy action around Westwood and Cornfield area... It should be epic... :)

Edited by Minas Moth
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Good day everyone... The Battle of Anitetam is done... Once again the Union Armies didn't fair all that good... I would take 8:1 casualties any day and once again a massive carry by my artillery units.... And most of the guns used are pieces captured from the Union armies in smaller engagements.

MJ-CSA Antietam 1.jpg

MJ-CSA Antietam 2.jpg

MJ-CSA Antietam 3.jpg

MJ-CSA Antietam 4.jpg

MJ-CSA Antietam 5.jpg

Oh...and it is time for Bobby Lee to wreak havoc upon the Union...

Edited by Minas Moth
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On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 7:44 AM, Minas Moth said:

Good day everyone... The Battle of Anitetam is done... Once again the Union Armies didn't fair all that good... I would take 8:1 casualties any day and once again a massive carry by my artillery units.... And most of the guns used are pieces captured from the Union armies in smaller engagements.

MJ-CSA Antietam 1.jpg

MJ-CSA Antietam 2.jpg

MJ-CSA Antietam 3.jpg

MJ-CSA Antietam 4.jpg

MJ-CSA Antietam 5.jpg

Oh...and it is time for Bobby Lee to wreak havoc upon the Union...

I am shocked how easely you won the battle!!!

You Play the campain on on difficulty HARD?!?! Right?

i Play the campaion as Union on difficulty hard.

i use the Version 1.24 

i am a german Player, but i absolutly cant understand how you can destroy so massiv the enemy troups .

Please explain me this a bit.

THX 

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