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J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 05/06/2023 1.28.4


JonnyH13

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1 hour ago, BCH said:

The best that I can bring to Shiloh is 2 Corp with 3 divisions each. I will be down in manpower for the brigades.  But could field 6 divisions total by deploying 500 strength skirmishers.

 

My Army Organization is only at 4. I could go back and replay from Bull Run onward to increase AO at the expense of Medicine, but my casualty rate has been high even with the wins.

I don't think medicine is worth it that early. Better to have econ/politics to be able to buy more weapons/officers or more training for better recruits. If it's looking like you have to resources to make it worthwhile then increase AO with the last two points instead.

AO 4 can work, but I think you'll definitely have to go with the hold briefly, fallback and then hold for an extended period at the landing. I prefer to go with AO 6 so I can get as many units as possible into the battle immediately.

I'm working on getting some videos together for a tutorial through Shiloh. Variance 1 me 0 on getting through Phillipi so far :)

Edited by pandakraut
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9 hours ago, pandakraut said:

I don't think medicine is worth it that early. Better to have econ/politics to be able to buy more weapons/officers or more training for better recruits. If it's looking like you have to resources to make it worthwhile then increase AO with the last two points instead.

AO 4 can work, but I think you'll definitely have to go with the hold briefly, fallback and then hold for an extended period at the landing. I prefer to go with AO 6 so I can get as many units as possible into the battle immediately.

I'm working on getting some videos together for a tutorial through Shiloh. Variance 1 me 0 on getting through Phillipi so far :)

Might have found an odd glitch..  last night when I checked my Camp save after Crossroads,  I only had under Career (with no points to allocate) the following:

Pol - 0
Eco - 3
Med - 2
Trn - 4
AO - 4
Log - 1
Rec - 1

This morning I loaded the save at the very end of Crossroads and finished the battle; I now have one Career point to allocate which can bring AO to 5 which allows for 4 divisions per corp.

Edited by BCH
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Just went back and replayed the end of Bull Run; I will see what I can do dispensing with Medicine at this point and putting the Career points into Eco and AO before Shiloh.

 

Off to the office now..

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7 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

I would say that having Politics at 3, economy at 2 and Army organisation at 5 is pretty good to deal with the Shiloh

 

At what level do you have your Training set? The cost of replacing veterans is killing me before Shiloh.

I have always won Logans Crossroads at MG lvl so far, but the casualty rate is far too high. The CSA skirmishers and the CSA batteries seem to out range my units on every play through.

After Bull Run I have the following Career setting:

Pol - 1
Eco - 3
Med - 0
Trn - 4
AO - 4
Log - 1
Rec - 1

I can get Economy to 2 and Army Organization to 5 for Shiloh; but this play through that I am trying at the moment has me facing some of the worst scaling I have ever seen. I am into the Hornet's Nest phase with few casualties, but every CSA Inf. brigade is in excess of 2,000 men, CSA cavalry @ 1,000, and CSA batteries @ 500+.

My right and left flanks are intact, because I pulled back on the flanks away from the objectives; I do not know how long I can hold. The Hornet's Nest is sparsely defended and I doubt it can be held until the first Union AI reinforcements arrive.

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Well that went as expected..

57,483 CSA Inf. vs 16,254 Union Inf.  with at least two CSA brigades in excess of 4,000 men. That is not a recipe for victory or a draw under any circumstances.

I am surprised the scaling went that way, I am not sure what triggered it. I have not had any Union brigades in excess of 1,000 men in this campaign.

Back to Logan's Crossroads to see if I can minimize the Union casualties a bit more.

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1 minute ago, BCH said:

Well that went as expected..

57,483 CSA Inf. vs 16,254 Union Inf.  with at least two CSA brigades in excess of 4,000 men. That is not a recipe for victory or a draw under any circumstances.

I am surprised the scaling went that way, I am not sure what triggered it. I have not had any Union brigades in excess of 1,000 men in this campaign.

Back to Logan's Crossroads to see if I can minimize the Union casualties a bit more.

Shiloh still has the max unit size defaults from the base game. Since the allied units are so large it causes those max size AI units to scale even higher in the mod. So even if your units are all 1k you'll face very large infantry units.

16k is actually pretty decent if you're only including your own units. Facing 57k on MG is surprising. I only faced 47k on MG and on Legendary I was facing 57k and 263k on two different saves. What is your intelligence service reported army size? 

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12 minutes ago, pandakraut said:

Shiloh still has the max unit size defaults from the base game. Since the allied units are so large it causes those max size AI units to scale even higher in the mod. So even if your units are all 1k you'll face very large infantry units.

16k is actually pretty decent if you're only including your own units. Facing 57k on MG is surprising. I only faced 47k on MG and on Legendary I was facing 57k and 263k on two different saves. What is your intelligence service reported army size? 

Correction... Make that 58 - 61K Army; 43 - 48% Training; 21 - 26% Armory according to the intelligence service.

I was only able to bring in 10,100 in Inf. for this test of Shiloh; I need to go back to Crossroads and figured out how to greatly reduce the Union losses there (winning is not a problem, overall losses with the win is a problem)

Edited by BCH
corrected to show pre Shiloh intelligence
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21 minutes ago, BCH said:

I was only able to bring in 10,100 in Inf. for this test of Shiloh; I need to go back to Crossroads and figured out how to greatly reduce the Union losses there (winning is not a problem, overall losses with the win is a problem)

The general strategy to win with very low losses is start all your units as close to the river as possible, retreat across the river and hide all your units in the bottom left corner. Wait for a few minutes for the AI cavalry to reset it's position(this will take some experimenting). Cross the river along the bottom board edge, trap the cavalry if possible in the SE corner and setup your units in the treeline to the south of the VP. All your units should be hidden and you can get vision on units in the open and destroy half the army without taking a shot in return. From there just slowly push up after you run out of targets to get more vision. You'll probably have to engage your infantry directly a bit to take the point but sub 1k casualties is very achievable.

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2 hours ago, pandakraut said:

The general strategy to win with very low losses is start all your units as close to the river as possible, retreat across the river and hide all your units in the bottom left corner. Wait for a few minutes for the AI cavalry to reset it's position(this will take some experimenting). Cross the river along the bottom board edge, trap the cavalry if possible in the SE corner and setup your units in the treeline to the south of the VP. All your units should be hidden and you can get vision on units in the open and destroy half the army without taking a shot in return. From there just slowly push up after you run out of targets to get more vision. You'll probably have to engage your infantry directly a bit to take the point but sub 1k casualties is very achievable.

That is pretty much what I have been experimenting with recently; I did not try pulling back the initial units across the river though. This last run through I was able to reduce casualties by another 1,365.  Only 1,999 for the last one as compared with 3.364 the time before.

Biggest issue in the last play through was CSA skirmishers out spotting and out ranging me (or hiding in open terrain).

I did take 6 batteries of 10 guns each to the party; that pretty much eliminated successful CSA charges once I formed a battle line in the south woods. (by the way, that anecdote from the Avery Harris Journal about the train track rail being fired by the Confederates was at Chancellorsville, not Gettysburg).

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Set up to try Shiloh again..

I Corp, 4 divisions, 20 brigades - 7,021 manpower
II Corp, 4 divisions, 20 brigades- 5,870 manpower

Intelligence report:

Army - 50-55K
Training - 38-43%
Armory - 30-35%

Estimated odds w/o Union AI brigades is 4.2:1 CSA:Union based on maximum CSA from Intel Report
 

In game start shows 53,656 CSA vs. 29,483 Union (includes AI Union brigades), slightly less than 2:1 odds in favor of CSA.

Edited by BCH
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Those numbers are basically what I expect to be going up against on legendary. You're only about 5k above the minimum AI Size so that's probably not the issue. You could try converting some of your infantry to 1k skirmisher units and see if that reduces scaling any significant amount, but you may just have a campaign where your luck was really bad and you're facing more men than usual. 

Here are the 4 saves I have to check against currently. Actual numbers will move around a bit due to unit splitting and other variance settings, but you can see a bit of a trend. 

- 1.0 Legendary: 63k vs 37k size: 39-44k training: 50-55 weapons: 22-27. This was before variance, unit size reductions, and a scaling logic update so the actual numbers faced were 73k. 
- 1.1 Legendary: 59k vs 34k size: 50-55k training: 54-59 weapons: 24-29. Prior to the CSA left flank unit size reductions. Actual numbers faced 62k.
- 1.22 Major General: 49k vs 37k size: 40-45k training: 48-53 weapons: 18-23
- Base game MG: ~51k vs ~32k size: 49-54k training: 42-47 weapons: 21-26

With facing a bit less than 2:1 you've got a hard fight but a winnable one. Though that is a bit more than would normally be expected of you on MG. The big hurdle is getting through the first 2/3 of day 1 and then making it to day 2. At those breakpoints you get enough allied troops that they can usually bring you through the battle.

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59 minutes ago, pandakraut said:

With facing a bit less than 2:1 you've got a hard fight but a winnable one. Though that is a bit more than would normally be expected of you on MG. The big hurdle is getting through the first 2/3 of day 1 and then making it to day 2. At those breakpoints you get enough allied troops that they can usually bring you through the battle.

Here is how it is going so far:

At the initial Shiloh church phase, the Union brigades pulled back to the first wood line behind the objective; backed with 3 batteries. CSA brigades of course take the objective  but do not press their numerical advantage. Union reinforcements arrive with another battery, two Inf. brigades and a detachment of cavalry. The cavalry detachment is deployed to harass the left flank rear of the CSA line. The right flank of the Union line and the 3 batteries slowly pulled back to the second tree line; forming a crescent line with the rest of the Union brigades.

In the second phase, all Union brigades and 4 batteries pulled back to the NE of Larkin's Field, (tight to the corner of the river and map boundary). A 400 man skirmisher brigade was deployed between the two objectives (a bit south of both in the central woods) to spot and harass incoming CSA brigades. A cavalry brigade was sent south along the river to spot and hopefully harass incoming CSA brigades.

Hornet's Nest phase has the initial Union brigades mostly intact on the right flank and finds the Union brigades on the left flank (by the river) also intact. Larkin's Field was never taken.

The incoming Union reinforcements north of the Hornet's Nest have been deployed in depth (not as a single line) and include 3 batteries. Small skirmisher brigades have been deployed in wooded areas south of the Hornet' Nest proper. Other skirmishers have been deployed on the river side W and NW of the Hornet's Nest.

CSA brigades are 'slowly' moving toward the Hornet's Nest, and that perhaps is due to the amount of Union brigades on both the CSA flanks. The Union line now forms a large horseshoe, anchored on one flank just North of the Shiloh church and on the other flank a bit Northwest of Larkin.  Union cavalry brigades are still intact right and left flank rear of what is at the moment  a disorganized CSA line. Union casualties are very light, CSA casualties are unknown but at least two brigades were routed near Shiloh church.

Three large CSA cavalry brigades advanced against the Union brigades near Larkin; they were repulsed twice primarily by the 4 Union batteries there. The CSA cavalry brigades have pulled back out of range and sight.

Currently waiting on the large Union reinforcements due north of the Hornet's Nest; success will depend upon how long I can delay CSA advancement at the Hornet's Nest. The strategy will be to keep 'demonstrating' on each CSA flank to keep the bulk of the CSA brigades delayed in advancement north.

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24 minutes ago, BCH said:

At the initial Shiloh church phase, the Union brigades pulled back to the first wood line behind the objective; backed with 3 batteries. CSA brigades of course take the objective  but do not press their numerical advantage. Union reinforcements arrive with another battery, two Inf. brigades and a detachment of cavalry. The cavalry detachment is deployed to harass the left flank rear of the CSA line. The right flank of the Union line and the 3 batteries slowly pulled back to the second tree line; forming a crescent line with the rest of the Union brigades.

In the second phase, all Union brigades and 4 batteries pulled back to the NE of Larkin's Field, (tight to the corner of the river and map boundary). A 400 man skirmisher brigade was deployed between the two objectives (a bit south of both in the central woods) to spot and harass incoming CSA brigades. A cavalry brigade was sent south along the river to spot and hopefully harass incoming CSA brigades.

While you don't have to hold the VPs regardless of cost, both of these phases offer the opportunity to inflict a lot of losses on the initial CSA units. Pushing some skirmisher units well ahead of your line can bait out charges and and disrupt the CSA attack. If you can keep the CSA units from all hitting your line at the same time and with some of those units worn out you can inflict very heavy losses on them as they try to cross the river. Just be careful to fall back units as they get charged as the 4k units will annihilate your smaller units in melee unless you've prepped every other factor in your advantage.

I think the worst scenario you can end up in is all your forces deployed at the landing while having inflicted relatively few casualties. Eventually the CSA units will all blob up and once they charge it will be extremely hard to hold them off if you haven't degraded them ahead of time.

It'll take me a bit to get there, but I'm working on a series to show what I do to get through Shiloh: 

 

Edited by pandakraut
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Hello together

i have tried to win in my new union campain on shilo but after 4 attempts i realized that for me the battle is not possible to win.

I maxed out all my Money and Units. In the Mission screen i see that i Play with 42k vs. 64k csa Units.

my Problem is that the enemy is after Phase 3 has startet the AI is charging me to death! every time i have the same Problem. Ai is coming with many 3 star Units and is charging

very efectfly.

When some has win the fight on legendary pls  let me know it.

8 artelery batteries help only for phase  1 and 2, after that the big death ist  coming.

i go on in the campain with the loss on shiloh.

On legendary the game is really really hard 🙂

 

I wish you good battles  

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35 minutes ago, sirwaldi said:

On legendary the game is really really hard 🙂

That was the goal :) 

It's definitely possible, I know of several people other than myself and Jonny who have beaten it. I should have a video up within a few weeks showing how I approach it. If you have 42k vs 64k you should be in really good shape. 

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Almost pulled off Shiloh on the MG lvl.. needed to hold the Landing 20 more clicks on the timer, or if Buell comes in early...

The Union left flank (by the River) was not strong enough to inflict a great many casualties around Larkin's Field; in retrospect, it would have been better to start them moving up along the river sooner and be supported by the gun boats.

Union cavalry did well, destroyed two CSA batteries, captured two supplies, and kept several CSA brigades out of the main battle; both Cavalry units survived.

The Union right flank held north of Shiloh Church, and moved into the Landing in good order and provided a strong defense at the Landing.. unfortunately not long enough. I Corp was mostly intact at the end of the battle.

The Union center broke down in the withdrawal to the  Landing; two of the large Union brigades that came in as reinforcements ended up routing. They survived, but were not as effective in defense as they might have been. The loss of some artillery in the center during the withdrawal did not help the situation; I should have sent them back to the Landing immediately. It was a slight delay but it resulted in the batteries being over run.

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16 minutes ago, BCH said:

Almost pulled off Shiloh on the MG lvl.. needed to hold the Landing 20 more clicks on the timer, or if Buell comes in early...

Sounds like you're getting close at least. If you can get your retreat in the center and left to go a bit smoother you should be alright. For myself at least losing any artillery would be crippling as I heavily rely on it to deal with the large brigades.

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21 minutes ago, pandakraut said:

Sounds like you're getting close at least. If you can get your retreat in the center and left to go a bit smoother you should be alright. For myself at least losing any artillery would be crippling as I heavily rely on it to deal with the large brigades.

Same here on the artillery

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2 hours ago, BCH said:

Same here on the artillery

This are the numbers I faced just the other day...

Shiloh.jpg

What I am most pleased about is the fact i have managed to replicate my tactic that got me through this battle the first time I played it... once I perfected it, I'll try some other tactics and approaches but for now on to the Gaines Mill.

Edited by Minas Moth
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17 hours ago, pandakraut said:

Sounds like you're getting close at least. If you can get your retreat in the center and left to go a bit smoother you should be alright. For myself at least losing any artillery would be crippling as I heavily rely on it to deal with the large brigades.

Loaded the save from the start of the Hornet's Nest.

Thus far:

Retreat on the left is in good order, the 4 Union batteries have re-positioned North and along the river. The Union gun boats should be able to provide overwatch when they 'arrive'.  Those batteries will be able to join with the 3 center batteries (which have also moved slightly toward the river) to provide enfilade fire against advancing CSA brigades.

The 3 Union Inf. Brigades on the left flank are leap frogging each other on the way North, allowing one brigade to cover the other two before jumping around them as they move.

I sent the 150 man Union skirmishers from the far South left flank to scout toward mid-map (West of Larkin); managed to blunder them into a pair of large CSA brigades. The skirmishers with heavy casualties are in full retreat Southeast toward the river; the CSA brigades may be inclined to follow them into the swamps along the river. In any case, those two CSA brigades are no longer heading toward my withdrawing left flank units. I am sending my cavalry brigade from my far south left flank to demonstrate against the rear of the two CSA brigades. With luck, those two CSA brigades will be the last to arrive in the vicinity of Harrison's Landing.

The Union right flank (Northeast of Shiloh Church) is a bit more heavily engaged than I would like by two large CSA brigades; more CSA brigades have been spotted in the woods west of the Hornet's Nest but out of range. The good news is that those two brigades are in an open field and being pounded by 4 Union batteries, 3 of which are my best. Shiloh Church may be undefended at the moment, I am sending my Mounted Inf. brigade (which was left flank rear (CSA left flank)) to recapture if not occupied and/or to the left flank rear of the two CSA brigades.

The CSA advance is slow toward the Hornet's Nest. A small Union Inf. brigade has retreated from the one fortified position, but a skirmisher unit is still holding the other position. Buell's advanced reinforcements have arrived. I will need to send one of those brigades through the woods in the direction of the Union right flank to discourage any more CSA brigades from joining in the attack on that flank. The two other brigades from Buell will be positioned a bit left of the Union center (towards the river) and behind the smaller Inf. brigades now in position there.

and that is as it stands at the moment....

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Strategy and tactics are sound for Shiloh, but I can not quite pull it off, with existing forces.

Attrition on the left flank eventually leads to it being overwhelmed despite routing brigade after CSA brigade. Union Inf. brigades for both Corps only average just over 500 in size (more thoughts on that toward the end). Union I Corp 1st Div. on the right flank was able to hold and then pull back to Shiloh, but with significant casualties; they gave as well as they got as the saying goes. After battle reports show they killed twice their original number. Again, I Corp brigade size was between 500 and 600 men per brigade.

Incoming Union brigades for the start of the Harrison Landing phase were both too small, and did not include any additional batteries. Additional batteries would have provided covering fire for the Union brigades withdrawing to the center.

When the left flank finally crumbled, that was the end of the battle. Union brigades were down to 200+ men or less on that side. The gunboats did as expected, and help hold off the CSA advance for quite a while;  but the gunboats alone can not hold that flank. No Union batteries were lost on the left flank and center until the very end. Once the Inf. brigades in front of the batteries were routed or destroyed, the batteries quickly fell.

CSA had at least a 3:1 advantage in manpower at the start of the Landing phase. The final Union reinforcements never take the field resulting in a 53% casualty rate for the Union vs  30% for CSA.

The Union center held for a quite a while and routed many CSA brigades, but eventually because the Union right and left were weakening, the center pulled back due to overwhelming numbers. One or two additional batteries right center would have helped.

Analysis:

Union Inf. Brigade sizes of 500 were too small, especially for the area of Larkin's Field.

I Corp 1st Div. needs to have its 2 star Inf. brigades with at least 1,000 men each for the Shiloh Church phase; including at least one of the incoming reinforcements for that side. I Div battery size was fine; they also survived the battle with their Inf. brigades.

Where to get the extra men..

Reduce casualties to I Corp in the 1st Bull Run battle (needs a great deal of experimentation)

Ditto for Crossroads, I believe I now have the tactics and overall strategy to come out of this battle with less than a thousand casualties.

Other thoughts on some issues:

Knowing what Corp and Divisions come in at what phase and where is key in organizing the initial defense of the Landing. I will go back and look at my saves in order to write down that sequence, and tweak my Order of Battle. Smaller sized brigades and skirmishers are fine for flanking movements, etc. but not so much for holding a line against a frontal attack. I ended up with some inexperienced and small brigades in critical areas.

 

 

 

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I know folks can have issues with Shiloh, but I can't seem to get past the Supply Raid during the Chancellorsville Campaign on medium difficulty. I manage to trigger Stuart but it goes downhill from there. I've tried straight charging everything (fun when one whole unit gets deleted in one artillery blast) and trying to flank with dismounted skirmishers, who never want to stay in range long enough to actually shoot. Plus I think I'm at a numbers disadvandage and on the attack with no real way of mitigating it. Ideas?

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48 minutes ago, BCH said:

Union Inf. Brigade sizes of 500 were too small, especially for the area of Larkin's Field.

I Corp 1st Div. needs to have its 2 star Inf. brigades with at least 1,000 men each for the Shiloh Church phase; including at least one of the incoming reinforcements for that side. I Div battery size was fine; they also survived the battle with their Inf. brigades.

I would aim for most of your infantry brigades being at 1k. A few can be smaller if you're using up available weapons but as you noted most of them need to be larger so they can absorb some casualties.

47 minutes ago, coinich said:

I know folks can have issues with Shiloh, but I can't seem to get past the Supply Raid during the Chancellorsville Campaign on medium difficulty. I manage to trigger Stuart but it goes downhill from there. I've tried straight charging everything (fun when one whole unit gets deleted in one artillery blast) and trying to flank with dismounted skirmishers, who never want to stay in range long enough to actually shoot. Plus I think I'm at a numbers disadvandage and on the attack with no real way of mitigating it. Ideas?

I would recommend Something Compass' approach for this battle. If all else fails, setup a line in the trees near the map edge, make sure a few cavalry units stay fresh on the left side and once the timer ticks down mount them up, loop around the left and move them onto the point. As soon as it's contested hit finish for a win. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F5wsEcBM4w

 

Edited by pandakraut
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