mod J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 05/06/2023 1.28.4

[pandakraut]

49 minutes ago, nik_nv said:

Do you know there the same parameters to limit the palyer's units?

The player units use the same values as the AI for everything but infantry. Infantry would have to be modified in the resources.assets file using a hex editor since the values change as you increase in army organization.

Guide to the hex editing if you want to give it a try, though just limiting yourself to smaller units get the same effect with way less work

 https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26225-weapon-and-perk-modding-guide/

 

[pandakraut]

1 hour ago, nik_nv said:

Sometimes the scripts in battles are annoying like the Chancellorsville, there in the middle of the battle the script takes half of your army 

and moves somewhere far, hmm, I could do it by myself IF the map was big enough.. 

Not much I can do about the phase resets unfortunately. I can turn them off so the units already on the battlefield stay where they are, but any new units would spawn directly on top of them which isn't any fun either.

[Minas Moth]

@pandakraut Yes, I do invest in accuracy perks but even so, more often than not the AI is just keeping his brigades in front of the fire from 2 or 3 directions without wavering at all. This in turn enables it to stack a column 4 or more brigades deep and then GANG BANG the players lines. As a comparison, my MJ CSA Campaign is going to Peninsular Campaign (just finished the battle of First Winchester)...There a 1 star Union Brigade taking fire from 3 of my 2 star Brigades and a battery of Napoleons (point blank) and 3-inch Ordnance for 10 minutes without flinching... That is what essentially breaks the AI in a way you have to exploit programming errors to get the win although you are doing everything right. However on the other hand, the Morale in the Melee feels great and really intuitive...There are some AI UBER BRIGADES that can slice up players entire line in a single charge but overall melee morale is good.

Yeah... in my campaign AI shoots at skirmishers and charges the main line infantry, ignores the skirmishers completely in that case. Also, I don't like using skirmishers as assault infantry 'cause it doesn't sit right with me. To charge a 1.000 strong Skirmisher unit in a melee against a brigade of line infantry is exactly the exploitation of programming that I was talking about 'cause there should be no way a line of skirmishers would ever charge and survive such an encounter. I get it its a game but that is a hack move that essentially throws off the AI.

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining... As you see I detected stuff I could do to win, I just want to see if there is a possibility to win by doing everything right and not using hacks and programming faults. 

Have a good day

Also on the side note... seems I don't have optimal starting career points for the Union on Major General difficulty. so whats the best/optimal setup and choices before the Shiloh to do it as least painful as possible? appreciate the help

Edited March 19, 2019 by Minas Moth

[pandakraut]

For myself, on the higher difficulties I view taking advantage of the AI tendencies as normal. On legendary its probably necessary. But I understand if you prefer to not play that way. On MG at least I do think it's possible to make it through without needing to take advantage of that kind of thing to much. Especially if you made it through Shiloh you should be set. There are definitely some exploits that I don't like to use either, though disabling detached skirmishers covers most of those.

Getting the AI to perform better is something we keep trying, but it has proven difficult. Past a point whatever it tends to do the player can notice and take advantage of since it's a relatively static system. If the AI were better the massive advantage in men and experience that the AI gets could be scaled back a bit.

Something occurred to me, when you describe units taking fire for extended periods of time, this may just be an aspect of the game speed being slower in the mod. The mod game speed is slightly slower than half speed in the normal game. So in terms of real time it will take more than twice as long for a unit to break under the same volume of fire. I tend to spend a lot of time on 2x or 3x speed to speed things up. Not sure if this is the actual cause of what you're describing, but figured I'd mention it. Rifle damage in the mod overall is lower so units do tend to be able to stick around longer. This is one of the reasons I go very artillery heavy. 

On the topics of artillery, the napoleon and 3in are two of the worst cannon available in the mod currently. This isn't really intentional or historically accurate, but if you compare the damage percentage at range of those two cannon to other cannon available at the time you'll find that other options are just better. 

5 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

Also on the side note... seems I don't have optimal starting career points for the Union on Major General difficulty. so whats the best/optimal setup and choices before the Shiloh to do it as least painful as possible? appreciate the help

There are actually quite a few different valid paths for career points in the mod. I like to have some econ for cheaper officers and weapons(I setup multiple cavalry units and buy lots of good cannon and scoped rifles early which is not cheap). Training is nice for the bonus stats, and some points in recon and logistics for the extra weapon availability and the bonus spotting is very useful. Politics also offers very good rewards in general. Through Shiloh AO takes up most of the points if you are planning on fielding as many brigades as possible though.

[Minas Moth]

Quote

 If the AI were better the massive advantage in men and experience that the AI gets could be scaled back a bit.

At least AI can figure out how to CARRY AN ENTRENCHED POSITION. And that is something Civil War era generals couldn't figure out for 3 years lol.

Quote

 So in terms of real time it will take more than twice as long for a unit to break under the same volume of fire. I tend to spend a lot of time on 2x or 3x speed to speed things up.

I am aware of the time speed ups... so on a x3 speed (second to fastest) it still takes way to long for units to break. I did compare stats for guns. I find 3 inch Ordn. good for long range sniping (as it is available as the Union really fast) and i racked up some 3 k kills with it in a single battle...but i will keep this in mind for the future.

Thnx for the advice...And keep it up... hopefully Ill crack the NUT called SHILOH eventually lol

[pandakraut]

28 minutes ago, Minas Moth said:

I find 3 inch Ordn. good for long range sniping (as it is available as the Union really fast) and i racked up some 3 k kills with it in a single battle...but i will keep this in mind for the future.

Are you sure you have the right cannon here? The 3in ord goes to nearly 0 damage at maximum range making it terrible for long range work. The 10pdr parrot works very well in this role though as it gets better at maximum range. I am certainly biased against the 3in as I value base damage more than firing rate, but others have certainly made good use of it as a short to mid range weapon. 6pdrs, 24pdrs, 14pdrs, whitworths, 20pdrs, and siege tend to be the only cannons I really use as the Union. Though for Shiloh I'll field whatever I have available.

I seem to keep guessing wrong on what could be improving performance for you  Hopefully some of my rambling helps a bit.

[nik_nv]

I realized the only serious problem of this game is the size of maps, the maps are too small. Sometimes I simply do not have space to unfold my 100k army!

Is there possible at least to do not limit the current map, to use it always the whole as it shown on the preview of each battle?

[pandakraut]

13 minutes ago, nik_nv said:

I realized the only serious problem of this game is the size of maps, the maps are too small. Sometimes I simply do not have space to unfold my 100k army!

Is there possible at least to do not limit the current map, to use it always the whole as it shown on the preview of each battle?

Tried it and failed unfortunately. If it can be modded I haven't figured out how yet.

[TechnoSarge]

I'm not at all sure how to build armies > 100K, at least before the final battle, from either side. I usually play BG because I play for enjoyment and being beat on for 6 hours in a major battle isn't enjoyable. I just played 2nd Bull Run (by the way, I grew up a dozen miles from that battlefield!) as CSA . I sold practically everything in my Armory before the battle that I couldn't turn into a unit, and the game reports I had ~31K infantry, 3K cavalry, 144 guns. The game lets you bring 85 brigades into that battle - for god's sake! - and I was trying to put together a big force. Wikipedia reports that the actual battle had 50K Confederates, and I only managed about 37K. I recognize that earlier decisions to train 2-star brigades cut the raw numbers, but I couldn't buy or capture weapons any faster.

 

I just realized I am using UI and AI Customization mod, not the Rebalance - whoops! Posted in wrong thread!

Edited March 20, 2019 by TechnoSarge
addendum

[TechnoSarge]

I just realized I am using UI and AI Customization mod, not the Rebalance - whoops! Posted in wrong thread!

[pandakraut]

36 minutes ago, TechnoSarge said:

I'm not at all sure how to build armies > 100K, at least before the final battle, from either side. I usually play BG because I play for enjoyment and being beat on for 6 hours in a major battle isn't enjoyable. I just played 2nd Bull Run (by the way, I grew up a dozen miles from that battlefield!) as CSA . I sold practically everything in my Armory before the battle that I couldn't turn into a unit, and the game reports I had ~31K infantry, 3K cavalry, 144 guns. The game lets you bring 85 brigades into that battle - for god's sake! - and I was trying to put together a big force. Wikipedia reports that the actual battle had 50K Confederates, and I only managed about 37K. I recognize that earlier decisions to train 2-star brigades cut the raw numbers, but I couldn't buy or capture weapons any faster.

Those numbers are fine for 2nd bull run. That's around what most players are bringing to the battle on legendary. Unless you are buying lots of cheaper rifles early on you just won't have the rifles to equip more. More men is also wildly unnecessary, you'd have trouble fitting 85 brigades onto the field in any meaningful way unless half of them were artillery units.

[nik_nv]

9 hours ago, pandakraut said:

Tried it and failed unfortunately. If it can be modded I haven't figured out how yet.

I'm sure it's scripted somehow in that files level0-level28.. What kind of language do they use there, I can't recognize the signature even..

There should be encoded (for each battle in the season):

1. Map index.

2. Corps initial positions/appearance for both sides.

3. Four coordinates limiting the map for each phase of the battle.

I'm not that good in hex editing, but I feel I'm on the right way

Edited March 20, 2019 by nik_nv

[Minas Moth]

15 hours ago, pandakraut said:

Are you sure you have the right cannon here? The 3in ord goes to nearly 0 damage at maximum range making it terrible for long range work. The 10pdr parrot works very well in this role though as it gets better at maximum range. I am certainly biased against the 3in as I value base damage more than firing rate, but others have certainly made good use of it as a short to mid range weapon. 6pdrs, 24pdrs, 14pdrs, whitworths, 20pdrs, and siege tend to be the only cannons I really use as the Union. Though for Shiloh I'll field whatever I have available.

I seem to keep guessing wrong on what could be improving performance for you  Hopefully some of my rambling helps a bit.

Yeah I am pretty sure I am talking about the right cannon. And yeah, short to medium range for 3-inch Ordn. is quite good. When I am talking about long range I am talking early game. After the Battle of Philippi you can spend 4 Rep points to get 6 3-inch Ordn. and there are 7 more in the store so it is the only gun you can equip to your starting artillery unit which is equipped with Napoleon 12 pdr that is just underwhelming. I managed to get 4 10 pdr Parrots (just enough for a 2 section Battery) and there are six 6-pounders available prior to Battle of the First Bull Run. Atm there is just not enough of "better" guns to be had and fielded. Situation will improve when coming to Shiloh as some 24-pdrs will be available and more Parrots will open up in the store.

Basically it is a matter of "choosing the lesser evil" because 3-inch and Napoleon are just that...two evils you have to use in order to have at least some meaningful artillery support early on. I I find your ramblings really helpful indeed. it is time to "charge into the breach once more".

Btw your videos on Camp management are extremely useful and easy to follow... great job

 

[pandakraut]

6 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

Basically it is a matter of "choosing the lesser evil" because 3-inch and Napoleon are just that...two evils you have to use in order to have at least some meaningful artillery support early on.

Understood, in that context the 3in is the better choice.

Happy to hear the camp videos are proving useful.

[pandakraut]

8 hours ago, nik_nv said:

I'm sure it's scripted somehow in that files level0-level28.. What kind of language do they use there, I can't recognize the signature even..

There should be encoded (for each battle in the season):

1. Map index.

2. Corps initial positions/appearance for both sides.

3. Four coordinates limiting the map for each phase of the battle.

I'm not that good in hex editing, but I feel I'm on the right way 

The base game was coded in unity. I'm not sure if the level0 - level 28 files actually correspond to the battles, those numbers don't line up with the number of battles in the game. Could be though, I don't know enough about unity to know where it stores that kind of thing. The mods hex changes are all in the resources.assets file currently.

I tried changing the map size when it gets set in the unity code itself, but if that works I haven't found the right place or places to change it yet.

[Minas Moth]

And I understand the problem of being limited with the code and necessity to cut back or drop the ideas you have 'cause the game code will not allow for them to be changed... Been there, did that, liked it for a while but got fed up with it eventually...

@pandakraut What determines AI's aggressiveness in a given battle? 

[nik_nv]

1 hour ago, pandakraut said:

The base game was coded in unity

Hmm, this is not friendly solution for modders. If you are close to developers you can suggest them to use like LUA or XML for scripting in the next release, especially for scripting the battles. Really, there some battles (like that one where you have to attack a bridge) where you are in such tiny parts of the source map, so there is no choice for the players, it contradicts with reality where you always have a choice to attack or maneuver..

1 hour ago, Minas Moth said:

What determines AI's aggressiveness in a given battle? 

Same problem, there are no AI scripts are opened. How do they program the behavior of CPU army? It would be nice to see some mod or modding abilities in this part.

There a lot of games where you can programm NPC' behavior making them as really smart and formidable opponent. I understand the current game is like civil war' live encyclopedia, but anyway just with a little effort and with our help they can make it as a realistic simulator of war for those times..

Edited March 20, 2019 by nik_nv

[pandakraut]

1 hour ago, nik_nv said:

Same problem, there are no AI scripts are opened. How do they program the behavior of CPU army? It would be nice to see some mod or modding abilities in this part.

There a lot of games where you can programm NPC' behavior making them as really smart and formidable opponent. I understand the current game is like civil war' live encyclopedia, but anyway just with a little effort and with our help they can make it as a realistic simulator of war for those times..

There is a lot of code in the game for judging the strength of unit compositions in terms of when to charge, fallback, etc. There are also various AI defaults for how aggressive or passive to be. We've made some progress at improving it, but it's simple figuring out which variables affect what.

[Minas Moth]

@pandakraut 

Shiloh Report... Take number 8... Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away...

So, I've decided to make another try at MJ Shiloh as the Union and I failed (again)... Managed to field 25 Brigades of decently equipped and experienced soldiers (same soldiers won landslide victories at Manassas, river crossing and crossroads). The part I don't get is how to field more than this 25 brigades (equipping a second corps)? In the camp prior to the Shiloh there were no cheap guns left; I have had acquired all of the musket, re-bored muskets and percussion muskets. My best units are equipped with Lorenz rifles and Springfield M1861s and I have watched a closely on the money I spend... Current Career build i have is Training 4, Economy 4, Army Organization 6, Logistics 1, Reconnaissance 1. I field guns from 6 pdrs to 14 pdr James rifles. Generally all units are in a good shape (few command/efficiency penalties), However, I noticed the lack of officers available in barracks... all that was left were Brigadier generals and Majors and you know how expensive those BG are.

Up to the battle...somehow during the Phase I i managed to hold the positions around the Shiloh church. Even managed to capture Rebel supplies and shift them to my position. However, AI had 3 Regiments of Artillery (700 men every single one of them). Also, as I have only 25 Brigades I didn't get any reinforcements during the first phase (I don't know if that is what determines the arrival of reinforcements). On the Second Phase my units made up mostly of militia managed to stall the confederate advance but eventually a mistake on my part made the Contested timer on Spain Field run down (and I didn't reset it) so the battle went to Phase 3. And that one hurt like hell.

My Right Flank at the Shiloh church still held but started to crumble due to overextended use...My 1000 strong regiments went down to some 200 men. And even though my 5th US Regular Infantry managed to rake 2.500 kills with support of 1st Excelsior Regiment of Artillery (12 Napoleons) who managed to get some 3.700 kills my units began to crumble and shatter. On the far east of the battle (Union left) AI brought up 2 regiments (one 2 star charge regiment 4.500 strong and another 2 star charge regiment 2.700 strong). In total 7.200 men against some 1.600 of my militia equipped with rocks basically... One moment of neglect and those behemoths charged in them and routed them and then just kept on steam rolling over my lines. On the 3rd Phase fall back wasn't very effective to break up enemies charges as they would just keep on going and going and going and going... Hell, I think some of the Rebels kept on going all the way to Chicago. All in all, in the Third Phase I was defeated within a hour of its opening. I managed to inflict 27.000 casualties on AI's 52.000 men army, but my units were exhausted and without ammunition.

Now after almost 10 tries at Shiloh I give the following conclusion:

1. 25 Brigade strong Army could be possible to get you to a draw at Shiloh but i doubt it will get you all the way to the win.

2. Building up a 35 Brigade Army seems like a best way to win the battle, however this one has its own very big problems:

• The cost of officers you need to make more army organizations will really hamper your economy and once you have shuffled all the officers you could and are left only with Brigadier Generals who cost 20+k and Majors who suck, you are really screwed,
• Amount of captured weapons is underwhelming. Counting Philippi, Distress Call, First Bull Run, River Crossing and Crossroads I have received (in total) 2.146 Muskets, 1.324 Percussion Muskets and 757 Re-Bored Muskets. That amount of equipment is barely enough to equip 4 Regiments 1000 men strong and mind you this is all in the time when you have only 2 divisions as you don't need more. In such times these numbers are enough, but once you go Shiloh it is not as nearly enough. And keep in mind that all of those battles were landslide victories for me with casualties inflicted in ranges from 77% to 88%.
• Choosing to go heavy on the Politics doesn't seem to be solution just because you have to take away in other areas (like economy or training), and if you don't invest into those areas your veterans will cost considerably more and your equipment will be more expensive and scarce. Basically I would have to crunch the numbers but it seems that money gains from Politics are eaten up if you don't invest in training and economy.

Also, I am considering of splitting my 1 Corps, 5 Division, 25 Brigades Corps into two Corps as it seems that not all of my units appear on the field, any ideas?

3. Seems more and more to me that Shiloh isn't that hard of a fight. It's a logistical nightmare to get the number of brigades and necessary equipment to make it doable.

4. In all of my attempts I have found out that AI bugs out a lot... could be because of the AI unit sizes, issues with path finding etc. 

All in all... i'm not gonna surrender just yet... However a tutorial or some hints on how to build a 35 Brigade 2 Army Corps Army for Shiloh would be nice...

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Minas Moth

[pandakraut]

6 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

However a tutorial or some hints on how to build a 35 Brigade 2 Army Corps Army for Shiloh would be nice...

Regarding officers I make it a point to be able to buy up everyone in the barracks by the time of Shiloh since this enables the ability to generate new officers. If the barracks is empty you can create an infantry unit and a new officer with 0 xp will generate for that position. 

A unit on the field with low efficiency due to a major is still better than no unit at all. About 15 of my units at Shiloh have red efficiency, but they do well enough. While the stat is important, the lack of it doesn't cripple a unit like low morale or exhaustion would.

Sorry, if you answered this in a previous post and I've forgotten, but are you using reputation to buy weapons and sometimes officers? Going negative morale is not that big of a penalty and can be well worth it.

For some numbers to compare against here are my K/D rates for the battles leading up to Shiloh. You can definitely make it through with worse numbers, but with these the battle was fairly easy.  I usually get most of my allied units killed to acquire their weapons.

Phillipi: 7k losses, 14k kills

Distress Call: 2.6k losses,  9.6k kills

1st Bull Run: 6k losses, 20.5k kills

River Crossing: 900 losses, 11k kills

Crossroads: 500 losses, 10k kills

In terms of corps setup. I would recommend front loading your 1st corps. The way the deployments at Shiloh work you get more units on the field earlier if you have a 1st corps with the largest number of brigades. Anything left over goes into 2nd corps.

I would normally recommend giving up the VPs in phase 2 early on to be able to go to the next phase. Especially if you don't have many or any units in the 2nd corps you need to rush to phase 3 so you can pull back and consolidate your lines.

Edited March 21, 2019 by pandakraut

[nik_nv]

On 3/20/2019 at 11:40 PM, pandakraut said:

judging the strength of unit compositions in terms of when to charge, fallback,

Ohh thats very very basic approach so far.. There should be geometric calculations about the overall formation/coordinates of own and enemy units so the AI can always track the Cannes scenario and protect flanks. It's actually does not matter how strong the units, I managed to completely wipe out huge 100k enemy army having only 50k+ my brave 2-3 stars men. I just surrounded them by skirmishers (!) and artillery (so they have constant damage and morale drop), so after 10-15 min almost half of enemy' army start to surrender..

[pandakraut]

5 minutes ago, nik_nv said:

Ohh thats very very basic approach so far.. There should be geometric calculations about the overall formation/coordinates of own and enemy units so the AI can always track the Cannes scenario and protect flanks. It's actually does not matter how strong the units, I managed to completely wipe out huge 100k enemy army having only 50k+ my brave 2-3 stars men. I just surrounded them by skirmishers (!) and artillery (so they have constant damage and morale drop), so after 10-15 min almost half of enemy' army start to surrender..

There's a lot more going on than what I described, it's just very hard to determine what parts have what affects with the limited access we have to the game's systems.

With enough experience many battles become fairly easy. At this point I consider 2:1 odds as a nearly assured win and 4:1 or higher can be won in the right circumstances. If I'm remembering right the the opening phase of Union Shiloh is something like 6 or 7 to 1 odds and that attack can be stopped in place if you've built up a strong enough army by then and have a little luck. That's a pretty extreme example though.

[Minas Moth]

@pandakraut I have done it!!!!!!!! And what a victory it was... I will post a tactics if that is ok with you tomorrow, it will maybe help someone

Note... The 1st Excelsior Light Artillery is equipped with Napoleons... Look at those boys killing everything lol....

Edited March 22, 2019 by Minas Moth

[nik_nv]

Potomac fort for CSA, legendary difficulty.. Is that so legendary?

Edited March 21, 2019 by nik_nv

[pandakraut]

5 hours ago, Minas Moth said:

I have done it!!!!!!!! And waht a victory it was... I will post a tactics if that is ok with you tomorrow, it will maybe help someone

Nice work! Feel free to post on how you got through it. Lots of players have had trouble with that battle.