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J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 05/06/2023 1.28.4


JonnyH13

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1 hour ago, pandakraut said:

If you are at medium range you would take the multiplier of 52% * the damage range of 4.5 to 6. So on average the weapon would deal 2.73 dmg at medium range.

Thanks.. thought that was how it works

 

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1.25 Mod on MG level - Union

Initial thoughts...

The Train Station/Phillipi plays as before, perhaps a bit less frustrating due to AI changes. I used the 'do not engage the initial CSA units, and push north of the village strategy'; in my play through that isolated the CSA units west of the river and subsequently trapped them when the CSA unit holding the village routed. I experimented with the entrenchments; they still are deathtraps (the ones outside of Phillipi proper), but they still are useful late in the battle. The two "reinforced positions" in Phillipi itself are worth putting the skirmishers in them; they seem to draw fire away from brigades positions in the town.

It is still a foot race when the Union needs to defend and hold Phillipi; I quick march two of the three Union infantry brigade reinforcements into Phillipi, and just let the third brigade advance at a normal rate so at least one of them comes into Phillipi close to top condition.

The CSA 'Land Monitor' is not very effective against brigades positioned in town; I just focus fire on it until it is destroyed. I posted one of the reinforcing Union batteries in that little sliver of woods in the southeast on the west side of river from Phillipi; that allows for flanking fire on the CSA train and any CSA brigades on their left flank. Eventually it is brought across the river to the Phillipi side.

Somewhat surprising, the CSA reinforcements coming in to attack the Union brigades holding Phillipi only brought one battery. That CSA battery was destroyed  while it was in limber trying to get from the northwest side of Phillipi to the south east side.

One of my strategic goals is to limit the casualties to the Union brigades that will become the Union first division. That requires some micro-management as the CSA brigades keep trying to assault the town. Once the CSA attacks are blunted and those brigades start to pull back; the battle becomes a mop up operation. The battle runs to approximately 22:18 and if you have a superior position and the numbers, it is well worth it to play it out. In my play through, this netted enough infantry weapons to supply two whole Union brigades (free is good).

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Just now, BCH said:

1.25 Mod on MG level - Union

Initial thoughts... 

continued,

Distress Call

I have played through this battle twice now, once with 10 brigades and once with 8 brigades (experimenting with allocation of the two career points from Phillipi); both were wins, with the easier win coming from the battle with only 8 Union brigades. As with the Train Station, once you gain a superior position and have the numbers; it is worth playing out the battle for the captured weapons and additional brigade experience until the timer runs out; in my second play through this was 14:38.

One somewhat strange occurrence (a surprise to me at least):

During a series of CSA charges against the Union line defending the south depot, I lost a Union battery of 6pdrs (as in it was no longer available in the battle). After the battle, back in camp, the battery shows up with 1 gun left and no commander. Four 6pdrs were recovered and available to refit the battery.

 

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15 minutes ago, BCH said:

1.25 Mod on MG level - Union

Initial thoughts... 

1st Bull Run...

First attempt was a complete disaster; the initial Union AI brigades were completely outclassed and out ranged (Percussion Muskets still only have a 300 yard range). Here, the down grade to 6pdr seemed to take away the balance that they provided. Trying to just defend the bridge resulted in that entire Union detachment being destroyed very early in the battle. Those Union brigades took fire from CSA units that remained unseen. Even pulling back the Union brigades did not alleviate that issue; moments after pulling out of range, they would begin taking fire again from unseen CSA brigades.

The second attempt started out with much promise; I sent the initial Union detachment to the ford area and positioned them in the woods. This preserved them until more Union brigades arrived. I basically waited until the entire Union army had arrived on the battle field. After resting the late comers, I began a slow push to Matthew's Hill and at the same time began pushing against the ford.

This was working well, several CSA brigades had been greatly battered and reduced in numbers while counter attacking the Union line advancing on the hill. Unfortunately, despite superior numbers the push to cross the ford was greatly delayed. This delay allowed CSA cavalry to exploit the gap and basically end up in the rear of the Union line (the Union lost their single cavalry brigade when this happened as well).

The 'icing on the cake' came when a battered 400+ man CSA brigade charged one of Howard's 800 man brigades located in the woods and actually completely destroyed that Union brigade that had morale and condition over 80 (it was shattered, one minute it was there the next it was not). Several other CSA brigades then poured around that flank and basically the battle was lost.

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Question on Division Commanders

I opted to place two Brigadiers as division commanders; but I rotated them through the army commander slot to activate the 'lives in the saddle' perk. Does this perk still apply when they are back in the division command slot?

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11 minutes ago, BCH said:

Question on Division Commanders

I opted to place two Brigadiers as division commanders; but I rotated them through the army commander slot to activate the 'lives in the saddle' perk. Does this perk still apply when they are back in the division command slot?

The Corps commander perks only work when the officer is in a Corps slot.

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I've been playing the new version for a couple days now, I quite like most of the changes.

I am a little dismayed by the changes to Army Organisation. I pretty much NEVER used the 6th brigade, but I did almost ALWAYS use the 5th division. That the 5th division is now locked away behind I think level 8 of AO is very bothersome, and I'm finding myself having to shoehorn support brigades like cavalry and skirmishers in to the 6th slot. More than a few times I've selected the division to move and forgotten the new brigade was attached...

I don't think I ever even want beyond 6 AO before, now I have to invest 2 more points in the very crucial early game, which I find is stretches my points far more; OR I can deal with 24, instead of 25 brigades, but organized worse.

I am very much in favor of the other changes but this one is quite frustrating.

This is one thing I may have to ask for advise on changing myself.

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35 minutes ago, Jorlaan said:

I've been playing the new version for a couple days now, I quite like most of the changes.

I am a little dismayed by the changes to Army Organisation. I pretty much NEVER used the 6th brigade, but I did almost ALWAYS use the 5th division. That the 5th division is now locked away behind I think level 8 of AO is very bothersome, and I'm finding myself having to shoehorn support brigades like cavalry and skirmishers in to the 6th slot. More than a few times I've selected the division to move and forgotten the new brigade was attached...

I don't think I ever even want beyond 6 AO before, now I have to invest 2 more points in the very crucial early game, which I find is stretches my points far more; OR I can deal with 24, instead of 25 brigades, but organized worse.

I am very much in favor of the other changes but this one is quite frustrating.

This is one thing I may have to ask for advise on changing myself.

You are getting a few extra Career points with the mod. Check the notes in your download.

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29 minutes ago, Jorlaan said:

I've been playing the new version for a couple days now, I quite like most of the changes.

I am a little dismayed by the changes to Army Organisation. I pretty much NEVER used the 6th brigade, but I did almost ALWAYS use the 5th division. That the 5th division is now locked away behind I think level 8 of AO is very bothersome, and I'm finding myself having to shoehorn support brigades like cavalry and skirmishers in to the 6th slot. More than a few times I've selected the division to move and forgotten the new brigade was attached...

I don't think I ever even want beyond 6 AO before, now I have to invest 2 more points in the very crucial early game, which I find is stretches my points far more; OR I can deal with 24, instead of 25 brigades, but organized worse.

I am very much in favor of the other changes but this one is quite frustrating.

This is one thing I may have to ask for advise on changing myself.

I have to admit I don't quite understand the issue here. If you chose to stay at 6 AO you are short one unit compared to the previous setup, but only have to commit 4 officers to field those units. Do you move units by selecting the division and then moving the entire group frequently? I almost never use that so maybe that is where the disconnect is on the benefits of 5 vs 6 units in a division.

The first battle where you have the chance to field the full 30 units in a corps is 2nd bull run. Since the base game AO 9 has always been the requirement to be able to max out your units in that battle, so we're staying consistent there. There does need to be some opportunity cost to be able to field a full corps given that extra units on the field is arguably the single strongest stat in the game.

Overall, the AO setup is actually fairly restrictive because of the way battles are setup. Both campaigns have different mandatory breakpoints to allow the player to reasonably be able to field the units a battle allows. We went through several different options and the one we settled on managed to fit both the CSA and Union campaign requirements.

You will also be receiving up to 4 extra career points now. One after the first battle, Shiloh, Antietam, and Chickamauga so that should help out with the extra points needed to get 5 divisions now.

Changing these values is not particularly easy as it has to be done through hex editing and is not in a section that translates to text, so a lot of trial and error is needed to make changes.

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For some battles yes I move divisions together, mainly infantry. For many battles I admit I use mostly manual, individual movement, but for some I move by division. There are a few battles where I use leapfrogging lines to push through the enemy. I do an infantry line with arty right behind them and 2 more lines of infantry behind that. Get in position, arty blasts away enemies, last brigade moves up, arty then re-position behind them and I have fresh infantry line with fully arty support still. Keep flanks clear with skirmishers or whatever else and just leapfrog forward. Been finding it works quite well in some battles where you want to attack on a narrow front.

I usually use either 4 or 5 divisions per corps, 2-3 infantry, 1 arty and 1 support which is mixed skirmisher, cavalry and maybe more arty. Only in a few late battles do I use the 6th division, but by then I don't mind the point use.

The 5th brigade is really only needed in this organisational system in battles where I need 15, as opposed to 10 infantry per corps.

I had thought I had gotten an extra point or two along the way, I'm only just before Gaines Mill on CSA campaign right now and had wondered why I seemed to have more.

I suppose this is mostly me being used to doing it a particular way and now having to adapt. With the extra points I'm sure I can make it work.

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1.25 Mod - MG level

3rd attempt on Bull Run

The strategy tried in my 2nd attempt appears to be sound. To counter any flanking attacks on the Union left pushing toward Matthew's Hill, I sent Keyes around to the upper ford and brought them south down along the river. Sherman and the additional batteries supported the initial Union brigades positioned in the woods just north of the middle ford.

Keyes pulled back north due to being flanked by an unseen CSA brigade (turned out to be Bees); but took few casualties and morale was not greatly impacted. I sent one of the initial Union brigades to cross the upper ford in order to support Keyes' right flank; both brigades were then moved south to put pressure on the CSA defenders of the middle ford. This action also flanked CSA brigades defending against the Union left advancing on Matthew's Hill.

Once Matthew Hill was taken; the Union line held on the ridge line and recovered condition and for some morale. CSA brigades continued to advance toward Matthew Hill; but were now often flanked by Keyes and company. To counter any flanking movement against the Union right flank, I kept a skirmisher unit and the Union scouts far to the right of the right most Union infantry brigade. This served as an early warning system and allowed enfilade fire on  the few CSA units that attacked the Union right flank.

Stuart's Cavalry was a royal pain, split into several brigades they began harassing various sections of the Union line. Eventually they settled on mounting an attack against the Union batteries located at the middle ford. In addition to close range volleys from Sherman and one of the Ohio brigades, they took canister from six Union batteries while in the ford itself. Those two CSA cavalry units are now hors de combat... a third CSA cavalry unit came in from the eastern side of the ford and charged a Union battery starting to cross the ford. I counter charged with the Ohio brigade and routed them.. unfortunately they routed across the ford and ended up north of Matthew Hill.  They provided 'excitement' with several close calls when Union batteries were attacked. Eventually they were  hunted down and destroyed by the Union scouts (AI provided cavalry unit).

Jackson's brigade attacked the Union line mostly in the center; Sherman and the Ohio brigades were brought across the middle ford along with all the Union batteries. These Union brigades were able to provide enfilade fire on the CSA brigades. The Union line from Matthew Hill was 'slowly' advanced against Jackson's brigades, while Keyes, Sherman, et al were strung out along the ridge west of the bridge (whose defense was abandoned at this point). The battle now was mostly focus fire on the most dangerous CSA brigade or on the one most damaged. Most of Jackson's brigades were destroyed before they could get back across the river to Henry's Hill.

Hampton's Legion was almost the only CSA defender of Henry's Hill; once they were driven off Union brigades captured the Hill.  The Union now has 10 batteries in position to defend Henry's Hill; most of the Union brigades are above 90% in condition and morale (four brigades are recovering both).  Hampton's Legion has been driven off twice when they counter attacked, and there are only three CSA batteries present, only one of which is within range. There is another known CSA brigade lurking some where that is at half strength.

The Union cavalry scouts are in a hidden position to the known CSA line. The timer is now at 0:26, and the Union is waiting for the soon to be incoming CSA reinforcements to counter attack. With Jackson's and Beauregard's brigades mostly destroyed; I should only be facing the CSA reinforcements.

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14 hours ago, pandakraut said:

If anyone is having trouble with the Union Shiloh, here is how I got through it. 

Great video and super helpful (not that I can play the mod, but always interesting to watch how others play).

Out of curiosity - the AI seemed to get a lot more passive after pushing you back from the Hornet's Nest (and then got more aggressive again at Pittsburgh Landing). Is that because they were out of condition, you got lucky, or because there were no more objectives to take? I guess with the last option I'm curious as to whether the AI 'understands' phases and the advantage of destroying your army if it can, or if it just goes for the current objectives.

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14 minutes ago, quicksabre said:

Out of curiosity - the AI seemed to get a lot more passive after pushing you back from the Hornet's Nest (and then got more aggressive again at Pittsburgh Landing). Is that because they were out of condition, you got lucky, or because there were no more objectives to take? I guess with the last option I'm curious as to whether the AI 'understands' phases and the advantage of destroying your army if it can, or if it just goes for the current objectives.

The details are mostly obscured to me, but the AI definitely has different aggressiveness settings that change between phases. It also seems to have internal timers where it will push for VPs it doesn't control towards the end of timers. This is most noticeable at a battle like Cold Harbor where you could abandon a point entirely for most of the phase and the AI will come in and steal it at the very end.

For all 3 starting phases the AI mostly seems aggressive up to the point where it captures the VPs. It only seems to push beyond them if your units are in sight and that results in a cascade of charges to push its units forward.

The AI also seems to rely on initial battle deploy orders in many cases. Crossroads and Rendevous are good examples of this. The AI is expecting to move to the center of the map and have player units to engage. But if the player withdraws and hides the AI just moves to the middle of the map and stands around. While there are some conditions that seem to break the AI out of this loop often they will remain very passive. Reloading saves does seem to override this at least partially as I've seen it significantly change up AI behavior on these maps.

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1.25 Mod - MG level

1st Bull Run - Union Victory

This final phase worked as I had hoped. Basically, only the CSA reinforcements were left to make the attack. About 4,000 of the CSA reinforcements never engaged in the main battle; they were kept distracted by the Union cavalry to their rear. When they did start toward the victory point, both CSA supply units were seized and the CSA brigades turned back to try and recover the supply.

With the Union line arranged in a wide V formation with the point of the V behind the victory point, CSA units moving to take the VP took enfilading fire from both wings including fire from the 10 Union batteries. Two of the three CSA batteries were knocked out by counter battery fire.

The bulk of the Union losses were confined to the Union AI brigades.

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1.25 Mod - MG level

Shiloh

First phase is over, I was not paying attention to the clock; that means I Corp has not been pulled back, but at the present the CSA brigades are not attacking so I expect to be able to extricate I Corp when that map comes up again.

My take away on the Mod...

The damage modifier for terrain seems to make a big difference; I am seeing 1 * infantry brigades stationed in wooded areas being able to hold against larger manpower 2* AI brigades attacking from the open (and occasionally against 3* brigades as well).

I believe I saw the results of the changes to morale regen during the 1st Bull Run Battle. While holding Henry Hill, I had 2* Infantry brigades (max condition and morale) to the immediate rear of some low morale 1* brigades (morale under 40), ostensibly to hold the line if and when the 1* brigades pulled back. To my surprise, those 1* brigades morale rose to over 80 despite taking almost continuous fire from AI.

The increase in carbine damage is greatly appreciated; the carbines in the right hands made significant contributions in Civil War battles. The following is from Colonel William C. Oates of the 15th Alabama letter in 1888 to Major Stoughton of the 2nd US Sharpshooters.

"Oates offered similar encomiums to Stoughton himself after the war. In a letter written in 1888, Oates told his former adversary:
'The great service which you and your command did was, first, in changing my direction, and in drawing my regiment and the 47thAlabama away from the point of attack. You drew off and delayed this force of over 1,000 men from falling on the Union left at the same time of attack of Law’s other three regiments, . . . and but for the service on your part I am confident that we would have swept away the union line and captured Little Round Top, which would have won the battle for us. . . . You and your command deserve a monument for turning the tide in favor of the Union cause'.
70"
The  2nd U.S.Sharpshooters deployed as pickets (skirmishers) on the Union left in the vicinity of Little Round Top were estimated to have been outnumbered 42 to 1. (for more info, this document was produced by the National Park Service
http://npshistory.com/series/symposia/gettysburg_seminars/11/essay5.pdf )

Artillery is still a major factor in battles despite a 40% reduction in damage; I believe the change in range curves and increasing canister range offsets the damage reduction.

Supply wagons not taking up a slot when reinforcing is also greatly appreciated.

Tip o' the tam tae ye (@Panda & Johnny)

Edited by BCH
correction
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27 minutes ago, BCH said:

The increase in carbine damage is greatly appreciated; the carbines in the right hands made significant contributions in Civil War battles. The following is from Colonel William C. Oates of the 15th Alabama letter in 1888 to Major Stoughton of the 2nd US Sharpshooters.

I have conflicting sources on whether the 2nd U.S. Sharpshooters had Sharps carbines or Sharps rifles at Gettysburg. I am inclined to believe they actually had the latter, after further reading.

That being said.. I still appreciate the increased damage for carbines.

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1.23 Mod - MG level

Shiloh still needs work..

In particular, in my opinion Buell's initial AI reinforcements need to come in at least as all 1* brigades if they are only going to field Re-bores, and Muskets.

There is an at least 3 to 1 CSA advantage due to scaling before Harrison Landing opens up for the Union to withdraw. And while I know how to game the battle to give the Union a chance overall; it relies upon what would have been poor tactics to do so.

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22 minutes ago, BCH said:

1.23 Mod - MG level

Shiloh still needs work..

In particular, in my opinion Buell's initial AI reinforcements need to come in at least as all 1* brigades if they are only going to field Re-bores, and Muskets.

There is an at least 3 to 1 CSA advantage due to scaling before Harrison Landing opens up for the Union to withdraw. And while I know how to game the battle to give the Union a chance overall; it relies upon what would have been poor tactics to do so.

Buell's reinforcements felt very useful to me as is. Even 0* and with muskets they can give your units a valuable break.

Delaying the CSA advance and inflicting casualties as you go is critically important to making it to the landing phase. If you let the AI stack up there is no defensive line on the map strong enough to hold their entire army.

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4 hours ago, pandakraut said:

Buell's reinforcements felt very useful to me as is. Even 0* and with muskets they can give your units a valuable break.

Delaying the CSA advance and inflicting casualties as you go is critically important to making it to the landing phase. If you let the AI stack up there is no defensive line on the map strong enough to hold their entire army.

I understand that aspect.. in this last case, I Corp had a firm defense of the Shiloh Church area and were inflicting heavy casualties. I Corp should have held their ground, it was tactically the correct decision. In moving them back, they then set up in an unfavorable defensive area (practically no maneuverability) ; in which Buell's brigades are not strong enough to delay the CSA hordes.

Part of the issue is the way the maps work on multi-phased battles; and I understand that there is no easy solution for that. One large map for all the phases would lead to very different in game tactics.

Disclaimer..

I had not built the ideal army for going into Shiloh; I have been looking at how the 1.25 mod changes impact various aspects of the game. I know what it takes to win Shiloh. I was all the way into the last phase of taking Richmond with the 1.24 mod when 1.25 was released.

Not a criticism of 1.25

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8 hours ago, Rick W said:

I updated to 1.25 and now I can not maually detach skirmishers. Is this intentional? Or is something amiss??

It is part of the mod.

Panda will be able to explain in more detail. But in my opinion the benefits out way the detriments once you get used to it.

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9 hours ago, Rick W said:

I updated to 1.25 and now I can not maually detach skirmishers. Is this intentional? Or is something amiss??

Detached skirmishers have been disabled for several versions. Perhaps you re-enabled them if you previously had 1.24 installed? 

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Ultimate General Civil War\Ultimate General Civil War_Data\Mod\Rebalance\ConfigFile.csv. Edit with notepad and set disableSkirmishers to false if you would like to turn them back on.

The mod is balanced around them being disabled and bringing dedicated skirmisher units armed with infantry weapons in the extra deploy slots provided. But if you'd prefer to play with them on go for it.

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Pandakraut...

I watched your entire video on Shiloh, very nice and extremely helpful.

On the gunboat damage reduction that you mentioned, did the gunboats get the increased range? (I can not see if the range was increased or not).

On both of my play throughs at MG level; the gunboats were adequate and helped rout the smaller CSA brigades on that flank. They were not so effective against the CSA super brigades; but I am not sure the super brigades were within range. One thought to make them more effective without changing the current damage percent would be to give them longer ranged runs with more damage. 14pdr James or the 10pdr Parrot (for all I can see, perhaps they already have them).

I am going to rebuild my army starting just after the 1st Bull Run and economize for the River Crossing and Logan's Crossroads with the objectives of having more funds available to build up what I need for Shiloh. One thing I noted about the River Crossing, taking both VPs does not seem to equate to much gain other than a few extra captured weapons. In my last play through on that, the downside to the extra weapons was increased casualties that were expensive to replace. Logan's Crossroads was not that hard, but trying to do extra damage after the VP was taken became a  bit of a Pyrrhic victory.

One other aspect of my army which may not have been worth the expense at this point in the campaign was placing a Brigadier General in command of the 1st and 2nd Divisions of I Corp. I had done so to see what effect it had with the 1.25 mod changes to command.

 

Edited by BCH
grammatical edit
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Question on Supply wagon commanders:

I noticed that Hoke, who is the 1st division supply commander) received a promotion after the 1st Bull Run.

Does this do anything in regards to that unit?

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