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J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 1/12/19 Hotfix

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16 hours ago, pandakraut said:

Odd, the skirmishers shouldn't be firing much faster than infantry and I found that I rarely had problems with those running out of ammo. Unless you are taking several of the reload perks? I don't know of any reason they should be getting resupplied slower. 

I've been using 1k Skirmisher units with the left side speed/cover/light infantry perks. They don't seem to shoot very fast they just consume what ammo they have faster than infantry does. A lot faster. 

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1 hour ago, Tragopan said:

I've been using 1k Skirmisher units with the left side speed/cover/light infantry perks. They don't seem to shoot very fast they just consume what ammo they have faster than infantry does. A lot faster. 

I ran some quick tests comparing a unit of 1k skirmishers with all left side perks vs an infantry unit with all right side perks of the same size. Both armed with a Lorenz. The skirmisher perks give an extra 10% reload speed so they fire slightly faster, but otherwise as far as I can tell they are consuming ammunition at the same rate per volley.

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Now one thing I think needs to be changed is the Icons for perks. I think they need to be switched in some cases such as the calvary perks where Saber Profiency uses a spyglass. 

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8 minutes ago, mosshadow95 said:

Now one thing I think needs to be changed is the Icons for perks. I think they need to be switched in some cases such as the calvary perks where Saber Profiency uses a spyglass. 

I've been complaining about that since day 1 :) 

Unfortunately it's a technical limitation. The rightmost perk has 4 bonus slots and the leftmost has 2 slots so the melee perk has to go on the right. Swapping the icon references causes problems in the assets file so that isn't possible either. 

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20 minutes ago, pandakraut said:

I've been complaining about that since day 1 :) 

Unfortunately it's a technical limitation. The rightmost perk has 4 bonus slots and the leftmost has 2 slots so the melee perk has to go on the right. Swapping the icon references causes problems in the assets file so that isn't possible either. 

Oh, that sucks. 

 

Is it just me or do 6 pounders out perform 12pounder Napoleons? They keep on getting twice as many kills and then their stats are better.

Edited by mosshadow95

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1 hour ago, mosshadow95 said:

Is it just me or do 6 pounders out perform 12pounder Napoleons? They keep on getting twice as many kills and then their stats are better

They are currently better due to the far superior damage curve. This was a bit of an oversight that will be corrected in 1.3.

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I'm at the Battle of Hardin's Pike, last battle before Washington and most of my commanders are still colonels. I only have 19 generals, mostly 1 star with 3 2's and 3 3's. I know exp was made slower but wow, this is a little TOO slow. None of these colonels started off anything lower than a Lt. Col and many of them were colonels to start. So with the generals I've gotten for free, I've really only had 14-15 actually rank up past colonel.

Jackson and Longstreet are both only mid 1 star, despite being in almost every battle starting off as brigade commander for prob half the game, then division. LOTS of kills from their units/divisions. They have each commanded two brigades from mid 1 star to 3 star, while themselves gaining little in either brigade or divisional role.

Can the exp scale-back be...scaled back a little? I know that the way they promoted in vanilla was way too fast, with a roster of 3 star generals by the end, but I feel I should have more than just 19 mostly 1 star generals by this point.

 

Also that is very good confirmation on the Napoleons not working properly. I had noticed them being somewhat lackluster and was quite disappointed.

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What difficulty are you playing on? The levels are balanced for legendary where there are more units to kill. Those numbers sound a little low, but pretty close to what I would expect at the end of the campaign.

Something to keep in mind is that your high experience Colonels are giving the same command bonuses as generals would be in the base game. Lowering the rank cutoffs slightly is something that could be considered.

Ranking officers up is usually best done outside of division command. It's also necessary to make sure they aren't in units with capped stats as they will stop gaining xp in that case. 

We're considering increasing the xp gain again and counterbalancing it with some combination of slower officer xp, increased officer wounding, and increased veteran pricing.

If you'd like to customize the rates yourself until we are ready to release a new version they are configurable. Bottom four values in the unitModifiers.csv.

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Oh gods please don't increase the officer wounding/death chance!

Been playing on BG, although my next campaign is going to be MG. I had wondered if it was balanced for the highest difficulty.

I had already discovered that brigade command leveled officers faster, but didn't know they stopped gaining exp when the unit did. Is that when the unit is a 3 star but still has exp room, or once it's 3 star is completely full?

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25 minutes ago, Jorlaan said:

Oh gods please don't increase the officer wounding/death chance!

Been playing on BG, although my next campaign is going to be MG. I had wondered if it was balanced for the highest difficulty.

I had already discovered that brigade command leveled officers faster, but didn't know they stopped gaining exp when the unit did. Is that when the unit is a 3 star but still has exp room, or once it's 3 star is completely full?

Is officer wounding really that bad now that lower ranking officers replace them? It mostly keeps the unit going from what I've seen.

Officers gain xp based on the difference in a units starting and ending stats. So you won't see much growth in 3* units. Also if you reinforce units in multiday battles that resets the starting stats so you're losing xp as well.

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Hey there! I would like to thank you for this mod, vanilla game felt nice but these changes and rebalancing really bring game to a better place :) I am keeping an eye on this thread and it is nice to see the feedback that I myself had after playing. I have a bit more feedback, I hope it will be helpful.

I am playing on medium difficulty and I have just finished 2nd Bull Run battle as Union. Looking through army organization stat only the last 10th level will give me the 4th corp, right? Maybe the 4th corp could be given at level 6 or 8 as in 2nd Bull Run battle preparation you already have 4 corp slots and then in Antietam battle preparation you have 5 corp slots but brigades limitation stays at 24 brigades per slot on both battles which corresponds with army organization level 6 where you can have 25 brigades per corp.

Is there away to increase the speed of cavalry a bit? It feels that it should be ~15-25% faster as it is a bit strange to see skirmishers, infantry and even artillery often decently keeping up to be ahead of  the horses to the point as I it is harder and harder to justify to have them (cavalry) as skirmishers are cheaper and fulfil the role of flanking/scouting.

Also I have some questions, maybe you would be able to help:

Do your broken units disappear completely, as if they run away from map without having flag do you lose all the men, equipment and the officer? At the last day 2nd Bull Run battle I was experimenting with using AI on my side and gave all of my divisions to AI control while editing the attack waypoints for them from time to time. The results were peculiar as my AI has done pretty well (I had 3:1 advantage in men and 4:1 in artillery though) with getting ~15-20% losses he completely destroyed enemy forces but he routinely sacrificed or had some brigades way out of the main division which lead to complete losses of them. It felt realistic as I also lost a couple of brigades in Shiloh battle but I feel it is one of the worst things that can happen gameplay wise as those brigades are completely lost which means no veterans, no equipment and no officer.

I am not sure if I should finish this campaign or start another one on a more difficult level. I have already a share of battles where I had 1k-2k casualties against enemy 10k-25k but I still had fun doing but it really felt as AI was sometimes lacking something: on one hand I liked when AI was able to try to flank or surround me, use skirmishers as scouts and play the artillery duels but on the other hand AI was also leaving artillery units without any cover or charging with infantry from way too far distance.

I am looking forward to new updates, and thanks again for an awesome mod!

 

 

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3 hours ago, hliltwon said:

I am playing on medium difficulty and I have just finished 2nd Bull Run battle as Union. Looking through army organization stat only the last 10th level will give me the 4th corp, right? Maybe the 4th corp could be given at level 6 or 8 as in 2nd Bull Run battle preparation you already have 4 corp slots and then in Antietam battle preparation you have 5 corp slots but brigades limitation stays at 24 brigades per slot on both battles which corresponds with army organization level 6 where you can have 25 brigades per corp.

4th corps will be moving back to 6-7 in the next release. with a 5th at 10.

3 hours ago, hliltwon said:

Is there away to increase the speed of cavalry a bit? It feels that it should be ~15-25% faster as it is a bit strange to see skirmishers, infantry and even artillery often decently keeping up to be ahead of  the horses to the point as I it is harder and harder to justify to have them (cavalry) as skirmishers are cheaper and fulfil the role of flanking/scouting.

Making sure to take the speed perks and ensuring the cavalry unit is in good condition when you are using it will help a lot with this. Using them with a corps commander who has the speed perk as well can also help. It's probably possible to stack to much speed on other unit types which can cause situations where the artillery struggles to gain ground. Readjusting these is on the list for the next release.

3 hours ago, hliltwon said:

Do your broken units disappear completely, as if they run away from map without having flag do you lose all the men, equipment and the officer? At the last day 2nd Bull Run battle I was experimenting with using AI on my side and gave all of my divisions to AI control while editing the attack waypoints for them from time to time. The results were peculiar as my AI has done pretty well (I had 3:1 advantage in men and 4:1 in artillery though) with getting ~15-20% losses he completely destroyed enemy forces but he routinely sacrificed or had some brigades way out of the main division which lead to complete losses of them. It felt realistic as I also lost a couple of brigades in Shiloh battle but I feel it is one of the worst things that can happen gameplay wise as those brigades are completely lost which means no veterans, no equipment and no officer.

Yes, if your units shatter you lose them completely. I would probably change this if I could, but that'd be a long term research project. I can't really recommend using the AI division control. It works, but the AI will play just like it does with it's units and have no regard for keeping them intact for the next battle.

3 hours ago, hliltwon said:

I am not sure if I should finish this campaign or start another one on a more difficult level. I have already a share of battles where I had 1k-2k casualties against enemy 10k-25k but I still had fun doing but it really felt as AI was sometimes lacking something: on one hand I liked when AI was able to try to flank or surround me, use skirmishers as scouts and play the artillery duels but on the other hand AI was also leaving artillery units without any cover or charging with infantry from way too far distance.

If you want more of a challenge going up a difficulty level is probably the answer. Be aware that the difficulty jumps can be significant both in terms of enemy unit size and several difficulty modifiers that we have added only turn on at Major General and above. You may end up having to replay some battles several times until you get used to it. The Union start through Shiloh in particular tends to give many people problems initially.

I am a bit surprised to hear that units are charging from to far away? We reduced the charge distance to around range 500 compared to the multiple screen widths that it is in the base game. This seems to have mostly stopped the AI from charging at something it can never reach and exhausting itself.

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Can you guys explain experience gains to brigades, brigade commanders, division commanders and corps commanders? Just trying to figure out how it's applied and how to make best use of it

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2 hours ago, FrankHan said:

Can you guys explain experience gains to brigades, brigade commanders, division commanders and corps commanders? Just trying to figure out how it's applied and how to make best use of it

Officers gain xp at the end of battles based on a formula that compares the starting and ending stats of the unit/units under their command. The formula for division and corps commanders requires more stat gain per xp granted due to checking against multiple units. 

So the fastest way to level officers is in a low level unit that will get lots of kills(preferably in melee), fires a lot, and spends a lot of time moving. This also means that units with 100 in all stats will grant no xp increase to their commanding officer no matter what they do.

Adding men to a unit in between days of the same battle will reset their starting stats, so you will lose out on officer xp. I suspect that swapping officers mid battle will result in the commanding officer at the end of the battle getting all xp, but have not tested to confirm yet.

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Any plans to separate the supply wagon in to two like in the other mod? I found that INCREDIBLY useful and am seriously missing it. Having two wagons allowed me to basically keep my whole army supplied in most battles. One wagon and I've constantly got half my men at least running out of ammo.

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1 hour ago, Jorlaan said:

Any plans to separate the supply wagon in to two like in the other mod? I found that INCREDIBLY useful and am seriously missing it. Having two wagons allowed me to basically keep my whole army supplied in most battles. One wagon and I've constantly got half my men at least running out of ammo.

Was that in the Surrender mod? I didn't notice that WVPM had added that. 

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1 hour ago, pandakraut said:

Was that in the Surrender mod? I didn't notice that WVPM had added that. 

When I played the UI+AI mod it had 2 supply wagons. Found that super, SUPER helpful.

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Thank you for the answers!

20 hours ago, pandakraut said:

I am a bit surprised to hear that units are charging from to far away? We reduced the charge distance to around range 500 compared to the multiple screen widths that it is in the base game. This seems to have mostly stopped the AI from charging at something it can never reach and exhausting itself.

Wow never knew it was that bad in vanilla. I just feel that charges do most well when they are initiated under the rifle distance (~300-400) so the infantry does a volley and then charge. By too far I mean around 500-600 distance so it might work as intended then. AI might initiate a charge on me in the woods because he only sees my 1 infantry brigade while other 3-4 infantry brigades and  3-4 artilleries are invisible and that charge is destroyed so badly that I feel a pity for that enemy brigade :( Can the timer on charge button be tweaked? Charges are kind a easy to avoid just by retreating a bit and then when AI cancels the charge it cannot charge on to the adjacent  brigade because of the cool down.

About the bonus supply wagon - I think this is some vanilla bug / "feature" as I have it right now with this mod 1.24 version here's the picture from preparation screen:

wQhMCoM.jpg

It even says 3 supply wagons in that corp that is in the centre >< I do not know how it happened but at some point in one of the missions when the reinforcements arrived instead of one of the cavalry brigades the second supply wagon appeared. In previous battle I had 2 supply wagons in that corp.

edit: this might be connected with moving the supplies in between days of the same battle from one corp to another (or just adding more). I noticed that there is limit of 50k supplies per corp which is also the same limit per wagon so I think it might go like this: I had full supply (50k) before grand battle, then in between days preparation I added more supplies to the corp and then, when I complete the grand battle all supplies are automatically renewed which means if you had some leftover supply at the end of the battle the system adds 50k (as it should be) and you have now like 60k now so it creates another supply wagon. Right now I can bring 150k supplies for that corp 😁

Also one more thing: in artillery description there was that short very useful description (like - good grapeshot, mediocre explosive shell, poor solid shot) it helped me a lot in understanding which role the piece of gun should fulfil. It is not a big deal at all but it was nice to get what the gun is at a glance :)

 

Edited by hliltwon
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6 hours ago, Jorlaan said:

When I played the UI+AI mod it had 2 supply wagons. Found that super, SUPER helpful.

That wasn't something I actually changed. There is a bug where if you retreat a supply wagon on day 1 of a multiday battle then you get two of them. Or something along those lines I never use that one. I could just duplicate supply wagons by default, might make things a bit to easy though, would have to think about it more.

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1 hour ago, hliltwon said:

Wow never knew it was that bad in vanilla. I just feel that charges do most well when they are initiated under the rifle distance (~300-400) so the infantry does a volley and then charge. By too far I mean around 500-600 distance so it might work as intended then. AI might initiate a charge on me in the woods because he only sees my 1 infantry brigade while other 3-4 infantry brigades and  3-4 artilleries are invisible and that charge is destroyed so badly that I feel a pity for that enemy brigade :( Can the timer on charge button be tweaked? Charges are kind a easy to avoid just by retreating a bit and then when AI cancels the charge it cannot charge on to the adjacent  brigade because of the cool down.

Part of this is medium difficulty. On MG and Legendary it is significantly harder to get the charges to cancel unless you really do have significant amounts of units in the area. Properly managing charges is fairly essential as the AI would just roll over you in melee with it's larger numbers. Lowering it slightly might be an option, but it's something that could easily go to far and then every battle turns into a non stop melee charge fest.

Getting the AI unit to fallback after it cancels the charge, or forcing it to charge as a group would help, but that kind of decision tweaking has been very difficult to implement.

1 hour ago, hliltwon said:

edit: this might be connected with moving the supplies in between days of the same battle from one corp to another (or just adding more). I noticed that there is limit of 50k supplies per corp which is also the same limit per wagon so I think it might go like this: I had full supply (50k) before grand battle, then in between days preparation I added more supplies to the corp and then, when I complete the grand battle all supplies are automatically renewed which means if you had some leftover supply at the end of the battle the system adds 50k (as it should be) and you have now like 60k now so it creates another supply wagon. Right now I can bring 150k supplies for that corp 😁

There are several bugs around changing supply amounts between days and getting free money out of it.

1 hour ago, hliltwon said:

Also one more thing: in artillery description there was that short very useful description (like - good grapeshot, mediocre explosive shell, poor solid shot) it helped me a lot in understanding which role the piece of gun should fulfil. It is not a big deal at all but it was nice to get what the gun is at a glance :)

The range damage multiplier section is a much more accurate version of that. Poor, average, good really wasn't descriptive enough to actually explain the differences between cannons. In general short to medium is canister, medium to long is shell, and max is shot.

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3 hours ago, pandakraut said:

That wasn't something I actually changed. There is a bug where if you retreat a supply wagon on day 1 of a multiday battle then you get two of them. Or something along those lines I never use that one. I could just duplicate supply wagons by default, might make things a bit to easy though, would have to think about it more.

 

OK I didn't realize that was a bug, as it happened every battle for me with that mod I think. Still I do think it's something worth considering as normal if it's feasible. Seeing as supplies tended to be split up and dispersed to many wagons/caissons across the battlefield for easier distribution, I don't think two in the game is too many. I still was not able to keep everyone supplied at full the whole time so it's not like it was TOO easy or anything. I still had brigades screaming for ammo half the battle.

But that's just my point of view. I find only one absolutely infuriating at times.

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8 minutes ago, Jorlaan said:

OK I didn't realize that was a bug, as it happened every battle for me with that mod I think. Still I do think it's something worth considering as normal if it's feasible. Seeing as supplies tended to be split up and dispersed to many wagons/caissons across the battlefield for easier distribution, I don't think two in the game is too many. I still was not able to keep everyone supplied at full the whole time so it's not like it was TOO easy or anything. I still had brigades screaming for ammo half the battle.

But that's just my point of view. I find only one absolutely infuriating at times.

If I could cleanly split the wagons into two I would probably do so. But I'm not sure if I can do it without basically giving the player free supply as I don't think the second wagon will get tracked properly. Added it to my list to research, thanks for the suggestion.

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7 minutes ago, mosshadow95 said:

I kinda wish supply was its own division that let you select how much ammo you wanted in each wagon. 

Having supply be linked to division instead of corps would be neat. That's definitely in 'hope the developer includes it in the next game' territory though.

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