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J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 1/12/19 Hotfix

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11 hours ago, Jadasong said:

In this case would you expect the Union at Shiloh to have 73,000 troops when it knows the confederates will only have 37k or is this not what you planned?

That's around what I would expect on MG for CSA Shiloh. Plus or minus about 5k on either side. I would definitely not recommend trying to win Shiloh on day 2. It can be done, but it's far harder than taking the VP day 1. Are you able to split the Union up the middle and get to the VP on day 1? Or are you having trouble penetrating the Union line to be able to do so?

Shiloh is a bit of a difficulty spike in the mod, so you may want to try changing removeSizeCap to false for that battle. This can be done in Ultimate General Civil War_data/Mod/Rebalance/AIConfigFile.csv. Just restart the game after the change. That should lower the troop count by about 10k. Changing varianceMode to false for the battle would also be recommended if you are having trouble. While it can be fun, if you are struggling with a difficulty battle the chance at extra AI units spawning isn't going to help.

The Union start is much harder in the mod. CSA Shiloh is comparatively easy in my opinion.

11 hours ago, Jadasong said:

1st Bull run seemed almost a bit comic (but I appreciated the Unions lack of command - my explanation!)  3,500 Confederates stopped 13,500 Union troops at the day 1 farm house objective where I could have been charged and routed easily, but they stood there in the open so I could have target practice, thank you!  Again later the remnants of 3 brigades (about (2,500 troops stopped 12,000 Union troops on 2 directions by sitting in the woods behind a creek while the Union are out in the open, nice and maybe plausible but still any attack and I'm dead.

This result is odd, because I feel like normally with that kind of advantage the AI is very aggressive. Any information you can provide on the weapons your units had equipped and the perks selected as well as what weapons you captured would be helpful. Are you using any of the tricks to cancel AI charges? If you have a chance, would you mind replaying the battle and seeing if it occurs again? Some screenshots of when it happens would be helpful.

We've generally been trying to make the AI more prone to charging when it should without turning the game into a nonstop melee grinder. We do most of our testing on Legendary though which obviously skews our results a bit.

One more note, you may want to check out this play through of the mod on MG. This is from a player who normally plays MG in the base game. He's doing a lot of experimenting, so the strategies aren't always optimal, but I believe he mentioned in his initial videos that he has made it past Shiloh so you might be able to get some tips there soon. 

Thanks for the feedback and glad you're mostly enjoying the mod so far :)

 

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11 hours ago, mosshadow95 said:

I just installed the mod today and began playing. Does Artillery still lose effectiveness over 12 cannons?

The base game curves still apply but it's now possible to out scale them. ~44+ cannon out scales 14 cannon. 1k skirmishers is only a few percentage points worse than 385. And 3k+ infantry out scale the 1875 limit.

Running out of supply also becomes a significant problem with very large artillery units and that's on our list to address.

Adding new curves to remove these limits will be in 1.3 but it requires a full weapon and perk rework so that damage doesn't get ridiculous. We're working on it, but probably at least a month or two away from having anything playable.

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4 hours ago, pandakraut said:

The base game curves still apply but it's now possible to out scale them. ~44+ cannon out scales 14 cannon. 1k skirmishers is only a few percentage points worse than 385. And 3k+ infantry out scale the 1875 limit.

Running out of supply also becomes a significant problem with very large artillery units and that's on our list to address.

Adding new curves to remove these limits will be in 1.3 but it requires a full weapon and perk rework so that damage doesn't get ridiculous. We're working on it, but probably at least a month or two away from having anything playable.

Ok, so does that mean that its not worth getting more than 14 cannons? By out scale do you mean kills per cannon or kills per unit? If 20+ cannons get more kills overall than a unit of 14 cannons but have less kills per gun it seems ok but if 20 cannons in total are getting say 1.1k kills while 14 cannons are getting 2k kills then I suppose its not worth getting large batteries.

 

Also I was wondering are semi-automatic weapons more useful in this version?

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By out scale I mean around 44 cannon you finally deal as much damage per volley as 14 cannon. What is happening is damage drops from 14 to 24, then starts going up linearly after 24. Basically it's not really worth going past 14 unless you're basically going to 50. A major flaw that we'd like to correct. Thankfully it's less of a problem for infantry.

I would label the carbines and repeaters as ok? The problem is they are expensive and rare enough that unless the AI starts fielding them it's not worthwhile. If you can capture them in larger numbers it's probably worth using spencers. Otherwise I probably wouldn't use them for much else other than small specialized units. They can be good but it requires a lot of micro and a different play style to get more out of them than just equipping skirmishers with infantry weapons.

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The Spencer rifle has a description that maintains it as a very fast weapon but it's fire rate is only 100, same as most every other rifle. Is this an oversight or intended? With a completely average fire rate it's description is highly misleading as well as honestly making it not really worth taking as it's always in such small numbers anyways.

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Repeating weapons are assumed to fire all of their rounds in a volley, hence their high damage, and then they reload their full magazine.  That reload usually takes just as long as reloading a muzzle loader.

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Tactics wise, from what I see, Muskets are terrible and 1855/1861 rifles should be your standard Union weapon. Thanks to the rebalance and range changes skirmishes can brutally slaughter musket columns at range. 

I'm thinking that muskets should be placed in the center during offensives backed up by a line of your regular troops the muskets act as meatshields and can be used to break through lines with their slightly better melee ability while your actual minie ball equipped infantry do the killing. 

Originally I placed all my good troops in the center and muskets on the flanks but that turned out to be terrible because the muskets could not get into range of enemies without stretching the flanks and then getting routed by skirmishers and collapsing the flank.

Calvary seems to work more like Total War calvary in that small amounts can easily charge straight into low quality infantry and heavily damage them. Which gets kind of rediculous when they kill a whole unit of artillery while a bunch of muskets adjacent to them fires a volley at point blank range and only hits 10 of them. The melee calvary seems a bit too tough. I've actually had a battle where they charged two pieces of artillery, recieved volleys from 2 different units of muskets right behind the artillery, were then charged by both units, totaling 1400 troops and defeated all of them and then broke out only losing 80/400 calvary while shattering both artillery and then routing both infantry units.

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I have been tempted to try out using skirmishers more heavily (modernized infantry made possible with new perks!), but the ammo limitations are what really turn me off to the idea. They go through ammo very quickly compared to infantry units, do far less damage, and for some reason seem to be very tricky to refill with a supply wagon. 

Edited by Tragopan

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52 minutes ago, Tragopan said:

I have been tempted to try out using skirmishers more heavily (modernized infantry made possible with new perks!), but the ammo limitations are what really turn me off to the idea. They go through ammo very quickly compared to infantry units, do far less damage, and for some reason seem to be very tricky to refill with a supply wagon. 

The skirmishers with the ammo problems, are they armed with infantry weapons or carbines?

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1 hour ago, mosshadow95 said:

Calvary seems to work more like Total War calvary in that small amounts can easily charge straight into low quality infantry and heavily damage them. Which gets kind of rediculous when they kill a whole unit of artillery while a bunch of muskets adjacent to them fires a volley at point blank range and only hits 10 of them. The melee calvary seems a bit too tough. I've actually had a battle where they charged two pieces of artillery, recieved volleys from 2 different units of muskets right behind the artillery, were then charged by both units, totaling 1400 troops and defeated all of them and then broke out only losing 80/400 calvary while shattering both artillery and then routing both infantry units.

Any situation that ends up with cavalry in melee with artillery is going to end very poorly for the artillery. Rifle, even more so musket, fire into melee is far less efficient than it is in the base game. It sounds like the cavalry is getting into your rear if they are regularly hitting artillery units?

What veterancy rating did the cavalry have? What did your own troops have? Were your infantry in good condition and morale prior to charging? Even the best cavalry will fair very poorly if they try and get to a line of experienced infantry in cover with accuracy perks. However, if those same units get caught in the open and unsupported things can go very badly for them.

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4 hours ago, pandakraut said:

Any situation that ends up with cavalry in melee with artillery is going to end very poorly for the artillery. Rifle, even more so musket, fire into melee is far less efficient than it is in the base game. It sounds like the cavalry is getting into your rear if they are regularly hitting artillery units?

What veterancy rating did the cavalry have? What did your own troops have? Were your infantry in good condition and morale prior to charging? Even the best cavalry will fair very poorly if they try and get to a line of experienced infantry in cover with accuracy perks. However, if those same units get caught in the open and unsupported things can go very badly for them.

It was the battle of bullrun right side, the bridge attack. Inexperienced infantry that comes free. However they were in relatively good condition having not fought yet. Calvary was one star.

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1 hour ago, mosshadow95 said:

It was the battle of bullrun right side, the bridge attack. Inexperienced infantry that comes free. However they were in relatively good condition having not fought yet. Calvary was one star.

Ahh, the stats on those units are awful. I think you'll find as the campaign progresses that melee tactics will start to become less and less effective as rifle and cannon fire becomes more effective.

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So has anyone else had luck in Shiloh? Normally without the mod I can hold my right flank while my left gets shoved back, but now the enemy outnumbers me to the point that I just immediately concede both flanks and fall back. This time I'm just to fall all the way back to the Landing. 

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29 minutes ago, mosshadow95 said:

So has anyone else had luck in Shiloh? Normally without the mod I can hold my right flank while my left gets shoved back, but now the enemy outnumbers me to the point that I just immediately concede both flanks and fall back. This time I'm just to fall all the way back to the Landing. 

Which difficulty are you attempting? My general recommendation is to try to bleed both flanks before retreating so that you can reduce the enemy numbers as much as possible before more arrive.

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A while back I made a video of how I play the battle on MG. It's on a slightly older version and we've since reduced the CSA strength in the first phase a bit, improved the gunboat weapons, and made fortifications more effective. Didn't do audio at the time, but the description and comments have a lot of details on how and why I set things up as I did. I would suggest taking a look at the video and then if you have specific questions we can go from there.

 

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On 1/23/2019 at 1:15 PM, pandakraut said:

The skirmishers with the ammo problems, are they armed with infantry weapons or carbines?

Infantry weapons. I've had a very hard time finding carbines/skirmisher rifles.

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40 minutes ago, Tragopan said:

Infantry weapons. I've had a very hard time finding carbines/skirmisher rifles.

Odd, the skirmishers shouldn't be firing much faster than infantry and I found that I rarely had problems with those running out of ammo. Unless you are taking several of the reload perks? I don't know of any reason they should be getting resupplied slower. 

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Alright I've gotten through Shiloh to the next day. Defending the second line of defense works well. I think previously I had too few troops which meant the CSA just charged me repeatedly.

 

And I gave a 2 Star Unit Lorenz guns by using political points. They killed 4500 confederates.....

Edited by mosshadow95

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45 minutes ago, mosshadow95 said:

Alright I've gotten through Shiloh to the next day. Defending the second line of defense works well. I think previously I had too few troops which meant the CSA just charged me repeatedly.

 

And I gave a 2 Star Unit Lorenz guns by using political points. They killed 4500 confederates.....

Nice work :)

Shiloh certainly provides plenty of targets. Using rep on weapons is highly recommended given their cost in the mod.

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1 hour ago, pandakraut said:

Nice work :)

Shiloh certainly provides plenty of targets. Using rep on weapons is highly recommended given their cost in the mod.

Also I'm shocked at how much Ammo is used. Unfortunately theres no way to turn off ammo resupply for individual units because I would rather tell my Muskets to save the Ammo for people with the 1861 and Lorenz. 

 

One thing though is that I can't tell the difference between weapon stats.

According to the Hover data

Lorenz=73/52/44/42 Range bonus

Damage:3.6-4.72

Range =400

Fire Rate =100

SF 1861=73/52/44/42 Range bonus

Damage:3.38-4.5

Range =400

Fire Rate =100

 

As far as I can see the difference is a minimal increase in damage for almost twice the cost. Yet it seems that far more damage was done. So I'm not sure how to read the stats of these weapons.

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