mod J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 05/06/2023 1.28.4

[BCH]

Pretty much a complete failure..

I had 20,364 vs 74,508

lost 10,893 vs, 23,944

Buells final reinforcements never arrived, but the battle timer was at 4:43 when the battle was lost; I did not expect those reinforcements.

Skirmishers with better weapons fared worse than the skirmishers with only muskets; CSA units charged the better skirmishers, and I was unable to have them withdraw quickly enough. I had 8 skirmisher units deployed in the mid-southern part of the map and on the flanks.

CSA units marched right past (by the river itself) the gunboats and took flanking fire, and rear flanking fire with little effect; they kept right on moving north.

3.7 to 1 odds on total manpower are pretty hard to beat; with the CSA brigades all being 2* or 3* (with the exception of a few cavalry units) the odds are even higher against the Union.

I am going to replay River Crossing and Logan's Crossroads a few more time to experiment with the Union order of battle; but I have low expectations of being successful at Shiloh as it stands now.

Currently, Shiloh is completely unbalanced.

Putting up a strong defense of both the fields might keep a lot of CSA units occupied in the center; but that would likely mean writing of those brigades for the defense of the landing. It also looks like the manpower odds for that set-piece are closer to 5:1

Playing Shiloh 50 times to luck out once on a win, is not my idea of fun.

[BCH]

11 hours ago, pandakraut said:

I never spend the money on the officers for a 2nd corps until Shiloh.

That part sort of worked; I had a lot of flexibility in setting up the Army for Shiloh.

 

Shiloh itself was not pretty

[pandakraut]

47 minutes ago, BCH said:

Playing Shiloh 50 times to luck out once on a win, is not my idea of fun.

I'm not entirely sure what the root cause is of how much trouble you are having with it. When I've tried on my old MG saves I can largely win the first two phases in place. They are fairly outdated though so I'll try and get a run through on MG in over the next few days.

[killjoy1941]

7 hours ago, pandakraut said:

I'm not entirely sure what the root cause is of how much trouble you are having with it. When I've tried on my old MG saves I can largely win the first two phases in place. They are fairly outdated though so I'll try and get a run through on MG in over the next few days.

Shiloh on MG with variance is far less skill than art just now. You have to play a very choreographed early match to win as Union. That's not a bad thing and it's probably well worth keeping for MG/Legendary players later, but I'm pretty convinced the CSA needs to be nerfed a bit for the moment if only to let your average player pass it and continue to test other mod changes that need further campaign play. The more the merrier in that regard, and unlike some of the later minor battles, Shiloh has an enormous impact on the campaign if lost or drawn.

Right now it's seriously harrowing and requires exacting play - single mistakes can prevent you from advancing with anything like an intact army.

Of course, if you get some favorable rolls when the battle is being set up you can win handily, but the potential for disaster is very high at the moment.

[BCH]

38 minutes ago, killjoy1941 said:

Right now it's seriously harrowing and requires exacting play - single mistakes can prevent you from advancing with anything like an intact army.

I do not mind 'harrowing' and 'exacting' play; and I do not mind major tactical strategy changes from BG to MG. I just do not believe that needing to 'game the system' to get a win on Shiloh represents good game balance.

The disparity in both numbers and skill level between the Union and CSA is too much, particularly in my opinion with the skill levels.

As I pointed out earlier, from a historical perspective both sides were at about the same level in regards to veterans/experience. The Confederates with the exception of Bragg's divisions were also poorly armed and a significant number had less experience than many of the Union divisions; some of the Confederate brigades went into battle armed only with 'pikes'. Bragg's divisions were another story, well armed and highly trained veterans for the most part.

I have some additional strategies to try out on Shiloh; so I will keep trying to find something that works consistently. I have been close, and have eked out several draws (Union losses on the draws were severe as to have basically destroyed the Union for future battles).

With as many times as I have played the battles leading up to Shiloh, I should be an expert on those by the time everything is over.

 

[pandakraut]

1 hour ago, killjoy1941 said:

Right now it's seriously harrowing and requires exacting play - single mistakes can prevent you from advancing with anything like an intact army.

How much of an army do you feel you need to make it through Shiloh with? For myself if I get past Shiloh with even 5k remaining the rewards of that battle are more than enough to rebuild and beat the rest of the campaign. On legendary I took 50% losses and had about 7k men remaining and had no issues afterwords. Since I don't build big units, Shiloh is the last time I see giant AI brigades and the rest of the campaign is relatively easy. This in itself is a campaign progression issue since the difficulty peaks so early, but that's a larger issue to address.

Edited August 26, 2018 by pandakraut

[BCH]

{Shiloh has an enormous impact on the campaign if lost or drawn.}

From my perspective, it is a must win battle.

This play through was another complete disaster.. down to well under 3 minutes and no Buell.. bum rushed at the end and lost (7 Union brigades captured in the last rush).

II Corp destroyed completely, I Corp only came out of the battle with 3 brigades.

Shiloh Church Phase:
16,988 CSA inf. vs 3,325 Union I did mange to hold Shiloh Church until after the Hornet's Nest phase.

Fields phase:
18,173 CSA inf. vs. 4,300 Union - could not hold the VPs but held the woods in the middle.

Hornet's Nest:
Stopped counting the CSA brigades.. 

Actually held the Hornet's Nest with Horse Artillery, a Skirmisher unit, and a Brigade. I pulled the rest of the army back to the NE of the Hornet's Nest. Hornet's Nest held until right before the Landing Phase.

Landing Phase:

Inflicted many CSA casualties, and routed many CSA Brigades. But Union attrition played a big role; eventually all the CSA brigades that had been occupied by the Union at the Church, and by the Union brigades in the center woods between the two field, make their way up to the Landing. Once there, they rushed pretty much en-mass .

 

Starting Manpower:

Union - 26,404 vs CSA - 62,079

Losses:

Union - 20,096 vs CSA - 29,009 (lost roughly 8,000 + at the very end during the CSA rush)

I tried 6 in Training to get some 1* skirmishers; but having only 4 in AO reduced the total number of brigades for the Union, resulting in no Union reinforcements in the Landing Phase. I am going back to 5 and 5 for the next attempt.

 

 

 

[BCH]

All in all, despite the total loss; the experiment itself was successful.

Strategy and tactics tried:

At Shiloh Church, I pushed south of the VP with all II Corp units. This included one  battery of Horse Artillery. Skirmishers were armed with '41s; as well as one brigade. AI did not seem to know how to effectively deal with what amounted to an attack; rather than a static defense. Skirmishers were maneuvered to the flanks of attacking Confederate brigades.  Eventually, it becomes a fighting withdrawal north to the Church. Union reinforcements came in, but never engaged prior to the Phase II map. Union casualties are low at this point for II Corp.

At the two fields phase, I strongly defended the western most VP with three batteries. I pushed skirmishers and a 500 man brigade far south in the middle of the map. This did slow the CSA advance considerably.

When the Hornet's nest phase started, I pulled back any brigade not engaged in the south and/or any brigade that had withdrawn from Shiloh Church and the Fields. CSA brigades spent a lot of time trying to chase down the the remaining Union brigades.

As I said in the previous post, a battery of Horse Artillery, one brigade, and one skirmisher unit held the Hornet's nest for a long time. Union brigades which had been pulled back from the Church and Fields arrived NE of the Hornet's Nest in relatively good shape in both manpower and condition. CSA brigades take a beating trying to take the Hornet's Nest and never really threaten the Union brigades to the NE.

As for the Landing, not having any reinforcement in the beginning of that phase foretold the ending of the battle; even so, I was able to hold on to the Landing for a lot longer than I expected.

 

 

 

[lightningg]

My strategy for MG Union victory at Shiloh is as follows.

The battle starts from when you set up the campaign - I know others don't advise it but I use a career point to get the 2 logistics and 2 medicine in Career Skills.  Reason for this is that every man you don't lose as a permanent casualty fights again and brings his own weapon  I think this also helps with efficiency as you are using fewer rookie recruits. . I'm assuming they stay with their brigade rather then return to the manpower pool (?)

This also gives you a better start in the weapon pool that you can build upon - refreshed twice before Shiloh after Philippi and 1st Bull Run

Keep losses in earlier battles to a minimum (I know this sounds obvious but I mean it) but if you have time left over to kill/capture enemies do so, apart from experience your troops/officers gain you also get a % of equipment.  Remember to use the #game# forces as much as possible to keep the Brigades you created as strong.fresh as you can and have troops you wont keep at the end of the battle bear the major loses..

With some battles I have noticed that slight changes to where you deploy your initial forces can make a big difference in the level of attack/loses you are exposed to before you get re-enforcements.- Crossroads is a good example

On to Shiloh itself.

I never use cavalry

Always avoid muddy ground.  Bear this in mind for when a brigade may rout, so give it a wide berth if you can.

Dependent on what I am bringing to the battle I may not use skirmishers - if I do use them it is for screening the enemy when I withdraw - I do not factor them into my defensive plan. unless its to chase down a rebel unit that breaks through

 Deployment is crucial to me.  Unlike in history you can manipulate which of your units appear where.  On the battle set up screen the first Corps I place is my new and weaker II Corps.  This places them as the initial defensive force at Shiloh Church, position now on referred to as ONE.  I also swap my best troops from the I Corps 1st Division with my I Corps 2nd Division.  This places my best troops in-between the 2 Field Flags on the second initial area TWO

In both ONE and TWO I maker my defensive line as straight as possible, based on the terrain.,  I maximise my firepower this way on any CSA attack.  I want 3 of my brigades firing at any CSA charging my line.  I do not expose my artillery to being drawn into melee by being too close to a frontline unit that may rout/fall back under the attackers momentum into them.  I tend to use smaller batteries but placed strategically in my Corps set up for where I want them to appear in the overall battle

ONE - withdrawing my left flank slightly across river and advancing right flank slightly to take advantage of higher ground.  Infantry are spread evenly across map but leaving a gap on right flank next to muddy ground.  My artillery is usually placed in centre and centre right.  By swapping my 1st and 2nd Divisions (above) The re-enforcements received are the new 1st Div Infantry of I Corps (the old 2nd).  I rotate them into the frontline asap putting 2 brigade on the left flank.  I now have a strategic reserve to move across the battle as and when needed.

I do not let my brigades rout unless unavoidable, I keep rotating my reserve/frontline brigades.  I will merge a weak brigade rather than see it break.  If you can break any enemy brigades than do so.

For ONE I also adjust my defensive front for how CSA is concentrated to keep my Infantry firepower concentrated.  I try to keep the ONE VP if at all possible.  If I cant then I know in advance that I will have to retreat from TWO as well and plan for this in how I defend the TWO area.  I will also make a planned fall back if I know my forces in TWO will be too weak to hold out

TWO - my line here uses the high ground on the left flank and a slight withdrawal north of the right flank VP.  In nearly all battles the CSA may initially attack my right but most of the TWO battle is concentrated on the left.  Because of the swap of 1st/2nd troops, my most experienced Division is here along with brigades from II Corps.  I also tend to have more artillery (3) here spread across the line more evenly than in ONE

If I am using skirmishers then they will appear here for the 1st time as some/all of my re-enforcements that will arrive.  As the battle progresses I again concentrate firepower to stop enemy attacks and keep my artillery ammo reserved for this and hold fire when possible.  After the initial attack on my right flank I gauge if I can re-deploy a Brigade to the left flank (based on what I can see of CSA and at some point will also consider moving artillery.  This is a tough fight and I will fall back as soon as re-enforcements arrive if I know it will be inevitable based on ONE outcome and What my troop level in TWO is telling me.  Again if I can I will rotate  any new infantry brigades and concentrate this on my left flank.

If I held ONE and I have held onto TWO then I will ignore the Fall Back to Hornets Nest (THREE).  Why waste your energy falling back and loose troops shot in the back. Instead I will feed in the new infantry troops into ONE (minimal) and TWO while not ignoring the gap in the centre.  Any new skirmishers will join existing ones to form a line ready to screen a withdrawal and most of new artillery will be left at THREE.  There is no point moving them to TWO if there get passed by my Infantry running the other way before they can open fire.  Remember to use your ammo and allow artillery already at TWO to now fire at will.  I am now confident of victory but keep rotating and moving troops around  (even from ONE across to TWO.) and keep concentrating my firepower.

 

If I lost ONE or TWO so have to withdraw to THREE then its not the end of the world.  Artillery are sent back by the quickest route well before I need to move the infantry.  THREE can be a strong defence but although I follow the diagram in making it the point of a triangle I don't ignore the wider flanks.  If you are outflanked here then falling back to the Landing (FOUR) will cost too much.  I also concentrate my artillery in the centre where the best routes back o FOUR are.  

Plan the withdrawal so you save as much as you can.  If you do have to lose something then lose skirmishers

Again rotate troops, merge brigades, feed in fresh troops do whatever it takes not to rout.  Hold your position at THREE if you can and again ignore thee call to fall back.  After all if you make it to the next day then you get pulled back for free

[lightningg]

I meant to say about moving your Generals around.

I also used to have 1 skirmisher in initial deployment in ONE and TWO areas and 'hide' them in advance of my line and try to use them to capture a Supply Wagon but found the micro-management of the battle more important to something that may/may not be possible and would rather have an extra unit where I can make the best use of it for the duration of the fighting.

[lightningg]

Also when falling back I would stagger this if not using any/many skirmishers.  Alternate brigades across the line fall back and hold, fall back and hold so you always have troops facing and  firing at any enemy in close pursuit 

I consistently win on MG level, based on everything I do from the creation of the campaign being geared towards being in as strong a position to fight at the start of Shiloh, rather than it just being the next battle in the campaign and in making sure that during the Battle of Shiloh I retain the control of what my strategy is and when/where I choose to fight

[BCH]

1 hour ago, lightningg said:

Also when falling back I would stagger this if not using any/many skirmishers.  Alternate brigades across the line fall back and hold, fall back and hold so you always have troops facing and  firing at any enemy in close pursuit 

I consistently win on MG level, based on everything I do from the creation of the campaign being geared towards being in as strong a position to fight at the start of Shiloh, rather than it just being the next battle in the campaign and in making sure that during the Battle of Shiloh I retain the control of what my strategy is and when/where I choose to fight

Your overall strategy for Shiloh is not too much different from what I just tried. I am starting again from just after Bull Run; took relatively few casualties there and that will allow me to experiment with some of your suggestions.

 

Thanks

[lightningg]

Philippi fighting until game stops

 

[lightningg]

Distress Call all enemy units destroyed

Tactics here were to withdraw from Supply Camp 1 before battle - forming an infantry line north of SC 2.  Doing this allows quick CSA capture of SC 1which triggers your re-enforcements immediately rather than trying to hold SC 1 & 2 and waiting a hour for the rest of my troops

All artillery were included in the first 3 units deployed before combat - gets them on the map in position - because of immediate extra troops this works

skirmishers in SC 2 and protecting right flank 

Long fight too many losses I think, CSA got bonus cavalry and artillery  I got some bonus troops to with the variable set up.  

[lightningg]

1st Bull Run as Union MG

This was a good example of having a plan and not being able to use it

The plan - defend the bridge without drawing fire and the ford on its right where I knew that CSA would attack with cavalry and probably skirmishers with Infantry holding position.

I would advance my 2 Divisions when they arrived but delay my attack on the Matthews Hill VP until both were in place then advance to attack CSA while not taking the VP in order to weaken CSA as much as I could while giving time for the rest of my #game# re-enforcements to arrive either side of the river.  I would also send my cavalry scouts to attempt to kill/capture one or more CSA Artillery if any were in sight before a similar dash to capture a supply wagon if possible.

Once all forces were in place I would then attack the 1st Hill VP but delay crossing the river points until CSA ordered a withdrawal to the final VP

Well

River crossing forces in place and CSA attempt to cross the ford being repulsed

 

Cavalry advance but find the bridge defended by 2 artillery and several other units in vicinity.  I head across to the area near where the CSA withdraw to, so I can cross back over another ford and up the hill.  Meanwhile back at the ranch, my 1st Div still haven't got to position, 2nd Div is only halfway where I want them and other troops have either just started appearing o,r across the river, have not yet appeared.

I spot a supply wagon with my cavalry give chase and capture when all of a sudden the withdrawal command appears with hours left on the clock (is this because of where my cavalry was when capturing CSA unit?).  With none of my forces in place the clock is now ticking down to CSA counter attack and they are already getting more re-enforcements. 

I now have to rush my forces to try and destroy some of the artillery leaving the Hill while not over playing my hand as I don't know what I am heading into.  Worse, the CSA cross the bridge with 2 skirmisher units and one cavalry  I stand my ground - just before they withdraw but the CSA do not fall back from the river crossings.

My final #game# units arrive, my 1st and 2nd Divs are pushing the CSA back towards the VP area, the captured supply wagon is safe behind my lines but at the cost of sacrificing my cavalry.  All looks ok when 2 CSA cavalry units attack my force guarding the bridge in the rear - sneaky - have only had that happen once before. My small force of infantry and artillery are mashed but survive as my re-enforcements draw near.  The cavalry run off and disappear.

My forces push CSA left flank across the stream but CSA still hold tight at bridge/ford.  My forces swing round to start rolling up the crossing defenders but its slow as the CSA are throwing units forward in various places..  CSA send 2 Inf brigades across the bridge and the cavalry returns but I have lots of artillery there now - variable gave me two extra batteries and split two of the inf brigades so I drive them off but still cant force the bridge with the CSA guns in place.  My main force is firing across the stream bullets and shells with several CSA units floundering in the water, there is a lull and both of my divisions charge across the water, other CSA units fall back and I finally hit the bridge defender in flank breaking them all

I am running out of time before the counter attack so I stay just  north of the VP , 3-4 inf ranks deep with batteries behind but have to leave one depleted inf brigade at the bridge and at the ford as the cavalry are still trying to attack my rear.

The rest is basically CSA attacks and Union defence. but as I rotate new units to the front they do so by advancing towards the VP so that I finally capture it and can then defend it in depth.   CSA continues to attack until all units are destroyed with the last one surrendering.

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by lightningg

[lightningg]

River Crossing MG

Hold left flank and centre attack with right flank take 1st VP.

Pivot centre swing round right flank so CSA is surrounded on 3 sides and backs to the river

Advance slowly and wipe them out

 

 

[lightningg]

Crossroads MG

I experimented with extra Artillery here 50/50 on whether I'd go that route again

Anyway tactics here are withdrawing to a point two thirds of the distance between the VP point and the railroad track.  Re-enforcements are used as a second line

This gives CSA an easy capture of the VP which is really what they are after.  Although CSA still attack it is on a lower scale than if you were defending the VP against them.  A lot of CSA units line up within Union artillery range so just blast them from distance.  Then when there are only a couple of CSA units in view the Union advances the second line and repeat blast as more CSA arrive.  Repeat your advance with the second line and this time bring the artillery forward a bit too and repeat blast.  By the 3rd or 4th advance you should re-capture the VP (making sure you do this before the clock runs out), the CSA will be more aggressive as they want the VP back but by now they are much weaker and most of their units are ones that have routed/taken heavy casualties.  Don't choose too many howitzers for this as you want to fire at range when the CSA units are just standing there - that was my mistake on this try

 

I didn't destroy all CSA units but as you see in casualty figures I got most of them just by exploiting their tactics to my advantage.  On to Shiloh

 

 

 

 

[BCH]

Is the maximum CSA brigade size for Shiloh fixed at a specific number under ver. 1.22d?

[pandakraut]

2 minutes ago, BCH said:

Is the maximum CSA brigade size for Shiloh fixed at a specific number under ver. 1.22d?

No, most of the units are near or at the maximum vanilla sizes and the scaling cap was removed so they can go up to the same limits as the player has with max AO.

[BCH]

Interesting.. might need to see how large I can get them to scale.

[lightningg]

OUCH!

 

[madmatg]

On Washington on the south map far east side: as my howitzers marched behind a unit of infantry they walked into a batch of trees to setup but then acted like they were in melee with the unit in the far southeast fortifications and were quickly killed. I never had any arty that far southeast in vanilla so I'm not sure whether this is a vanilla bug or not, I suspect it is.

[pandakraut]

34 minutes ago, madmatg said:

On Washington on the south map far east side: as my howitzers marched behind a unit of infantry they walked into a batch of trees to setup but then acted like they were in melee with the unit in the far southeast fortifications and were quickly killed. I never had any arty that far southeast in vanilla so I'm not sure whether this is a vanilla bug or not, I suspect it is.

Probably a vanilla issue. Any chance you have a screenshot? If not don't worry about it, I don't know how to fix that kind of thing anyways.

[BCH]

If that Shiloh Battle was played at the MG level, I am impressed.. nice job.

Are you playing under the 1.22d mod?

 

[pandakraut]

Here is the result of my playing up through Shiloh on MG. Video below. First half or so will hopefully be useful in terms of charge management. The AI wasn't terribly aggressive so pulling back to the hornets nest was much easier than on legendary. The battle was basically over by the time the landing opened and I got real lazy, so don't put to much stock in the second half. You can watch me suicide half a cav unit and chase routing units all over the map if you like though. My cavalry play in general was not great.
Edit: I didn't take the time, but for maximum benefit leave something alive and go to day 2 so you can kill forest as well.

On legendary I would have started with 2 more skirmishers in phase 1, but the extra cannon worked so well while I was working out deployment slots that I didn't change it. If you only care about maxing the units you get in phase 1 you can choose to only go up to 5 AO. But 6 gives you an extra unit in phase 2. I played distress call with 8 units and Bull Run with 10. Starting with 2 logistics/2 medicine would have allowed me to field a unit of whitworths, 20pdrs, and siege units but I'm not sure if it's worth what you lose in econ and training. The biggest benefit to having those cannon is that you would have enough counter battery units to easily clear out the mass of CSA artillery in the later phases. Would have saved me several hundred casualties as I ended up having to shoot them out of the woods. Still, only 4k casualties from my own units and a good chunk of them are on the skirmishers with 1842s which will be getting disbanded anyways.

The AI has muskets or terrible rifles all the way through Shiloh which makes it really easy to beat them with firepower as long as you avoid getting charged. This does mean that melee usually ends badly for me and it felt much harder to force surrenders. Oddly legendary is easier in terms of AI equipment since better rifles have lower melee values. It's much harder in terms of size, rewards, and far more 3 star units. 

@BCH Some of your earlier screenshots showed the AI with over 70k troops. That's more like what I normally see on legendary. Are your kill ratios around the same as me and @lightningg? Or are you just getting incredibly unlucky with the variance stuff?

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by pandakraut