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TL:DR- Just read the numbered bits you lazy buggers @Banished Privateer

Just gonna chuck this out there. I think the 3 combat mission limit isn't great for the game. Admittedly its broken in regards to hostility missions not being separate from combat missions but the current capital gank fest is silly. I feel sorry for any new player who ventures out in there brand new herc just to get smashed by camping "vets" looking for "fair" fights. The mission cancelling needs proper explanation for new players.

The game really needs a hard look at what it wants to do with the New player/Capital area problem. I think the safe zone is good but badly implemented with to much attempt at pleasing both sides (new players- hardcore pvpers) and trying to strike a balance between the two is potentially impossible. My suggestion would be to force PVP away from capitals completely by increasing OW risk vs reward allowing the capital areas to be locked down correctly as they should be for new players.

The problems that need addressing:
1:AI fleets tagged in capital zone create open battles but missions in zone don't. That's just confusing for new players and is causing many a seal to lose there shit as its not explained.

2:Missions for new guys (people with less than 50hours gameplay) can spawn outside the zone. Again new guys don't no what the "zone" is and that there about to get jumped by "vet" pvpers. 

3:Capital missions provide the same rewards as missions anywhere else. Causes people to just work from caps which is shit. More risk more reward needs to be implemented drastically.

4:High level players still get the same rewards for kills at capital zones as they do anywhere else. (controversial comment I know)

5: RVR is lacking (we all know that and I wont touch on that)


My suggestions/ ideas (open for discussion):

1: Any battle in the zone VS AI should close immediately. None of this confusing meta that looks terrible and illogical for a new player. Lock the zone down.

2: New players IE players that haven't completed the tutorial or passed arbitrary play time say 50hours only get missions inside the zone. They can still leave the zone and tag AI like normal and get killed by "vets" to there hearts content.

3:Capital missions and OW fleets inside the zones rewards should be massively reduced and I mean massively. It should be 2x-4x more money and XP for missioning from port outside the zone and loot should be better also. Force the players to move on by making it slow and painful to level in a capital. This could be done hard like mentioned prior or soft. Soft being once a certain rank is reached the reward reduction takes place thus allowing the new players a bit of monetary income until a certain point.

4: For those pvpers that go and sit in the zone waiting to be tagged the pvp rewards for both parties should be reduced. Kill the rewards force people out of the cap zones.

5: Fix RVR and PVP will shift again. See other suggestions for this :) 


Now all of this comes from a player who levelled up without safe zones and without doing missions (because they were shit). I see the benefit of the zone for new players. It gives them time to build. To get immersed and to dream of where to take themselves in the game. It is necessary for new player retention and it should be a area that captivates players. It should however not be a place for players to hide after a certain point, the balance needs to be struck. 

PS
The tutorial is a bloody good start and has done wonders for new players and is genuinely impressive what it can do for a new player. We had a new guy join us last week and he's rocketing up through the ranks and really enjoying the game partly due to the fact we forced him to leave MT and because the tutorial was a challenge for him.  

Edited by Capt Jubal Early
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21 minutes ago, Capt Trashal Early said:



Now all of this comes from a player who levelled up without safe zones and without doing missions (because they were shit). I see the benefit of the zone for new players. It gives them time to build. To get immersed and to dream of where to take themselves in the game. It is necessary for new player retention and it should be a area that captivates players. It should however not be a place for players to hide after a certain point, the balance needs to be struck. 
 

Point is that developers (at least) stated clearly that they DO NOT WANT to struck a balance.

In this game the vet/hunter shall always have the advantage. It's their game design choice, not a problem or an issue.

Going to the merits of your proposal, if you nerf rewards in safe zones you will likely have some people quitting the game, while if you buff them outside you will likely have people trying to risk more. A players shall not feel punished for staying in the zones, rather shall feel rewarded for going out.

It would be enough that ships in AI fleets, only outside safe zones, will drop rare books or nice upgrades with let's say a 10% rate (now the drop rate is abysmal both inside and outside) and you'll get the result of luring out some players to risk their ship.

Very simple solution to begin with testing.

Edited by victor
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Absolutely right you are.

It's very simple, pvp is found where players are found.

The most players are found at capitals aka Reinforcement/noobie zone

The nooby zone doesn't even protect noobies, it protects people who don't need protecting while leaving actual noobs out to dry.

There's no incentive for experienced pvpers to fight elsewhere on the map. No end-game ow pvp, not even a mid game. There's nothing keeping people from only going to capitals to find pvp. You can make it 100%safe and people would still camp outside them.

That's a sickly pvp meta. People want fights, they want good fair fights, and they want to be rewarded for their effort.

@admin you need to start considering some OW incentive if you haven't already.
(Props to the devs, they've really been on the ball lately and I have no doubt the next patch is gonna be a big hit).

Your patrol missions, just as a simple objective are SO EFFECTIVE at facilitating pvp, please expand on them and make them more like real missions that get people fighting around the map. RVR is not enough, RVR and OW have very little to do with each other game mechanics wise. Player wise yes ports=population but population =/ pvp

Edited by Slim McSauce
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2 minutes ago, victor said:

Point is that developers (at least) stated clearly that they DO NOT WANT to struck a balance.

Got a quote from them ? Hear say is meaningless.

The current mechanics are non sustainable. If there's goanna be a player protection area it needs to be implemented properly.  

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Just now, Capt Trashal Early said:

Got a quote from them ? Hear say is meaningless.

The current mechanics are non sustainable. If there's goanna be a player protection area it needs to be implemented properly.  

It's a recent post in an answer to the comments when the contents for last patch were announced. They said something about they do not want casuals in this game and that this game is aimed only to hardcore players.

I'm too lazy to find it out now, sry.

Edited by victor
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Yeah I remember what they said. That says nothing about new player protection that says everything about killing casual players which the suggestion is fitting to.

Protect the new players to build the hardcore ones. Get them captivated with a fall back of ships/bank behind them and they will be ready to be shunted into the OW.

Don't make them sink or swim from day one that's killing the retention.

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1 minute ago, victor said:

It's a recent post in an answer to the comments when the contents for last patch were announced. They said something about they do not want casuals in this game and that this game is aimed only to hardcore players.

I'm too lazy to find it out now, sry.

context matters, I remember that specific post and it was on the lines of specific PVErs who feel like it's the games job to protect them on the PVP server anytime they want which I agree with, the game is not for casuals in that regard.

New players, are not casuals or are they PVErs. They're just new players and they should always be protected to properly foster them into a game like this.

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Just now, Slim McSauce said:

context matters, I remember that specific post and it was on the lines of specific PVErs who feel like it's the games job to protect them on the PVP server anytime they want which I agree with, the game is not for casuals in that regard.

New players, are not casuals or are they PVErs. They're just new players and they should always be protected to properly foster them into a game like this.

My point exactly. New players don't know if there casual players or hardcore players. Its up to the games learning curve, introduction and retention to decide that.

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2 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

New players, are not casuals or are they PVErs. They're just new players and they should always be protected to properly foster them into a game like this.

And they will not be protected since the mind of the developers is clear and summarizes in the "git gud" refrain, which works also for newbies as well as for casuals.

And BTW that's what a hardcore game is: a difficult game that does not help you in doing nothing, but makes just everything extremely time consuming and skill/experience based.

Edited by victor
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Just now, victor said:

And they will not be protected since the mind of the developers is clear and summarizes in the "git gud" refrain, which works also for newbies. And BTW that's what a hardcore game is: a difficult game that does not help you in doing nothing, but makes everything time consuming and skill/experience based.

Keep it constructive.

 

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6 minutes ago, victor said:

And they will not be protected since the mind of the developers is clear and summarizes in the "git gud" refrain, which works also for newbies. And BTW that's what a hardcore game is: a difficult game that does not help you in doing nothing, but makes everything time consuming and skill/experience based.

I doubt that's the intention of the devs. Why would they want their own game to fail? I don't blame them for getting it mixed up, 80% of the game is played in the safezones and it makes for a real mess trying to sort between what features affect what type of player (truth is it affects everyone equally because that's how the zones work)

But equal isn't good. New players deserve special treatment not PVErs or people who use the safezone to only to play safe. This is a pvp oriented game through and through. If you don't want to be exposed to player combat you should've chose the PVE server offered to you and use a PVP account for when you do feel like engaging in player combat.

But it's not only the safezone, like I said, you could make it 100% safe and it would still be camped to hell. Problem lies deep within OW not having any notable pvp features outside of patrol zones.

 

Edited by Slim McSauce
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Just now, Capt Jubal Early said:

Keep it constructive.

 

it's not a matter of attitude, it's just accepting the vision of the developers.

You will understand as well when you will see that each balanced proposal almost ignored, and the game will shift even further in favour of veterans and people that have a lot of hours to spend each day in the game.

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3 minutes ago, victor said:

it's not a matter of attitude, it's just accepting the vision of the developers.

You will understand as well when you will see that each balanced proposal almost ignored, and the game will shift even further in favour of veterans and people that have a lot of hours to spend each day in the game.


I'm well aware of the admins tendencies. Lets just talk about a problem in the game and ways to fix it rather than having a bitch fest of the intentions of the devs hey?

Constructive threads with good discussion is always worth a read and you never know it might just hit home. Call me a optimist I don't know but looking down at your shoes all day must give you a bad neck.  

 

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6 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

I doubt that's the intention of the devs. Why would they want their own game to fail?

They could have very good reasons, basically financial reasons in my opinion. But hey, the game is theirs ... it's up to the players be realist and avoid making too many illusions. And that's what I am just doing.

Also I think your reasoning is flawed in the part in which you put a division between new players and PVE players ... if new players will realize that it's not their game when they loose the "protected" status they will just leave later, but they will leave anyways. So - TBH - I find that the devs' way - whilst  harsher - it's way more sincere to new players.

Edited by victor
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Just now, Capt Jubal Early said:


Irather than having a bitch fest of the intentions of the devs hey?

 

Is anyone bitching here? I do not think.

Did I criticize the fact that devs have their view? No.

Stating that your solution will not be considered since is in conflict with the game "mood" is just part of the discussion. Or you take as constructive just the opinion that agrees with you?

 

Edited by victor
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5 minutes ago, victor said:

Is anyone bitching here? I do not think.

Stating that your solution will not be considered since is in conflict with the game "mood" is just part of the discussion. Or you take as constructive just the opinion that agrees with you?

 

Well just going on hear say of the devs direction is kinda bitching. :P 

How about we talk in a constructive manor on how to fix the problems?  What don't you like? why? Do you like the current capital camp? Open up talk, don't just throw the devs wont like it as a excuse.

Edited by Capt Jubal Early
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Just now, Capt Jubal Early said:

Well just going on hear say of the devs direction is kinda bitching. :P 

How about we talk in a constructive manor on how to fix the problems?  What don't you like? why? Do you like the current capital camp? Open up talk don't just through the devs wont like it as a excuse.

Mate, I have talked in the past so many times on this forum just to be accused of being a carebear. I proposed a lot of possible solutions. At the end of the story what I saw is the game that is shifting more and more to a "mortal online" style (but with even less contents).

Point is this game - in order to be a good MMO game - would need a lot of fresh new contents, not just little tweaks here and there. So my post was just a reminder about the fact that we are discussing about the color of a car that lack the engine and the wheels.

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16 minutes ago, victor said:

They could have very good reasons, basically financial reasons in my opinion. But hey, the game is theirs ... it's up to the players be realist and avoid making too many illusions. And that's what I am just doing.

Also I think our reasoning is flawed in the part in which you put a division between new players and PVE players ... if new players will realize that it's not their game when they loose the "protected" status they will just leave later, but they will leave anyways. So - TBH - I find that the devs' way may - whilst  harsher - it's way more sincere to new players.

That would be better than providing a false sense of security waiting to get shattered while simultaneously creating a lazy, unmotivated player population always falling back on the game to protect them from the mean evil-spirited pvpers who want to destroy their comfortable way of life.

If you can't put in the action to protect yourself and your territory, you don't deserve to be safe.

If you won't protect people with 1 hour from people with 3k hours, you don't deserve new players

It really is that simple.

 

Edited by Slim McSauce
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Just now, Capt Jubal Early said:

PS. Do you think there's no problems currently with camping capitals? Should the game stay like this? Is this how the game is intended to be?



 

there's a problem, and I proposed a lot of times the solution: give some good loot (notes, books, upgrades) only from ships in fleets outside safe zones (while in safe zones you get just xp, gold and the usual garbage). It's simple to implement. Will they do it? I think not.

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1 minute ago, victor said:

Mate, I have talked in the past so many times on this forum just to be accused of being a carebear. I proposed a lot of possible solutions. At the end of the story what I saw is the game that is shifting more and more to a "mortal online" style (but with even less contents).

Point is this game - in order to be a good MMO game - would need a lot of fresh new contents, not just little tweaks here and there. So my post was just a reminder about the fact that we are discussing about the color of a car that lack the engine and the wheels.

Ah a Jaded Vet haha. Thanks anyway

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Just now, Slim McSauce said:

That would be better than providing a false sense of security waiting to get shattered while simultaneously creating a lazy, unmotivated player population always falling back on the game to protect them from the mean evil-spirited pvpers who want to destroy their comfortable way of life.

If you can't put in the action to protect yourself and your territory, you don't deserve to be safe.

If you don't protect people with 1 hour from people with 3k hours, you don't deserve new players

It really is that simple.

 

You deserve this you deserve that. Lazy unmotivated players. You (and some others) like very much tell other players how they should play this game.

But a good game is a game that is funny for everybody.

So it's baiscally this kind of attitude (and developing direction) that is making this game less and less funny for so many players. And we ended up - after130.000 copies sold - with 500-600 players prime time, where the 40% of the players bascially tell the other 60% to go to another server where there are 100 players.

 

Edited by victor
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I posted this on another thread to ringing silence, but I will post a precis here as well as I agree with OP big time :) and it mirrors my thinking as well.

The issue with NA is that you don't have zones to work with like other MMO's  the whole world is one zone so you have to be inventive.  In addition, what we are talking about is not a rule system or a player system.. it's an Ecology of the game, so every time you change a rule.. you are threatening the ecology of the game and as such every rule change has knock on effects (usually unwanted)..  however, changing the ecology is never possible if you just change one rule at a time to see what the effects are without changing all the others round it.

So the following suggestions, for me would be all or nothing..  each one relies on the others to provide the experience.

1)   Safe Zones...     Safe Areas..  Reinforcement Areas   call it what you will...

Most games of the traditional type work on providing a risk v rewards system to encourage players to get out there and interact and meet other people in a staged way.  They have Newbie areas which lead into more risk areas which lead into rougher areas which lead to the full experience of the game..  which lead to end game  (bosses.. major instances etc etc).  NA has two of these..  being in port is the safe area and OW is the full experience of the game.

Changes I would offer....     The current safe zone is a start in some respects, but it's not safe and it's a misnomer.  If you tag an AI then you are open to and will be attacked..  which is not really safe and as such it's referred to as a reinforcement zone (or in the game..  gank central).  The only thing safe about the safe zone is it's a safe zone for PvP'ers that want easy PvP marks by killing newbies.

How could this change...

First.. I would have a radiating  range from the coastline of the starting areas..  example  around the British starting area of Jamaica..   This would be a line around jamaica set at (for sake of argument)  5/10/15/20km km from the coastline.  These areas would be the reinforcement zone.    ALL battles initiated in this zone would close immediately no matter who initiated them.   Now..  if the Battle was initiated by a British player in his RZ (Reinforcement Zone)  all good and done.   If it was initiated by a non British player against a British Player then in the 5km (first zone) Reinforcements would be provided automatically  and instantly to the british player to a value of 120% BR of the attackers at close range to the British player(s).   If in the 10km (second zone)  Reinforcements would be provided automatically  and instantly to the British player to a value of 100% BR of the attackers at short range to the british players(s).   If in the 15km (third zone) Reinforcements would be provided automatically  and instantly to the British player to a value of 80% BR of the attackers at medium range to the british players(s) and at 20km Reinforcements would be available ON Request to the British player to a value of 70% of the attacking BR at medium range.  In all the above  if it's non British players fighting each other.. it's a normal battle but should still close immediately to prevent griefing of adding british players to either side..  if your British and want hard core  get outside your own RZ.  If you are not British and want hardcore.. get out of the easy zones.

In addition...  the rewards would need to increase by range as well for BOTH sides (where british players are involved)....    both exp/gold and PvP marks should scale based on the zone the combat is in with attackers of the home nation not being eligable for PvP marks in those zones.

2) Now.. thats all  very well..  but it has a major problem..  on it's own..  those rules turned the game into almost a PvE server (or could do) and that's not what all people want..  some want a full on hardcore PvP game  and that is fine..  there should be options for all...  so  my comment about ecology of rules.. not individual ones.

Safe players.. (or any other semi insulting term you want to use) should be able to play safe and hardcore (or any other semi insulting term you want to use) should be able to play hardcore  BUT  and here is the huge BUT..  they should be playing at that level together.. there should not be a case of one type of player having it easy over another type..  you want safe.. play safe but don't expect as many rewards..  you want hardcore.. great go play hardcore.. but not at the expense of players who don't want to play hardcore.

And this is where the importance of an economy comes in..  because it is the economy in games that DRIVE the need to get out of the safe areas....  OK some may never do so  but so what..  if they are there..  present in the game  having FUN  they will write good reviews and they will help the game just with chat and being around.

So let's look at the economy..  In the same way as there is diminishing risk from staying close to home, there has to be diminishing rewards in all aspects in that same area...    so some  suggestions :-.

Only the most basic items for trade should be in home areas  so for example..  you should be able to learn to craft in those areas but ONLY the very basics...  so  production buildings in the reinforcement/home  areas should be max level 1..   the supplies available should be the simplest..  ie  a level 1 shipyard in an RZ can only build a fir/fir ship and it should never be more than a green ship.     Level 1 shipyards outside the RZ operate as now..  and can be expanded to level 2/3.  Same with resources buildings..  some of these should not be permissable in RZ areas and if they are they should be max lvl 1.    There should be no huge fortunes ammased in RZ areas.. but there should be basics for people to learn from and enough to keep them happy(ish).

The further you get from the various nations RZ's  then the more valuabe stuff is available.    So if you want to build great PvP ships then your shipyard and all your resources will be outside and coming from outside the RZ's. 

3) Teleport  sorry I mean Tow to port should ONLY be to national capital, never to outpost and if we want real hardcore should not exist (although I do see the need for it in a game).

OK this is becoming an essay and if I add some of my other ideas regarding balance etc, this wont fit the post limit,  but let me finish by re-itterating there should be an ecology of rules all of which intertwine and not the individual ones we have now.   This ecology gives a risk-reward at all levels..  you decide your risk and get an appropriate reward.

You want to stay safe.. fine.. then you have limited options but you do have options...   you want to be hardcore.. then fine be hardcore..  but with like minded people and reap the rewards that only hardcore can give you.

This way you cater for all types of players and retain them and the world gets used and lots of people fill up the game and are all happy. (well mostly.. some will always be unhappy)

 

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Yeah I read your post the other day. I think its way to complex. Simplicity is bliss.

We shouldn't limit crafting in capitals. Capitals should always be a trade centre but at a increased cost which they are currently. What shouldn't be happening is people fulfilling all there gold grinding, ship building and trading all in one place.

Kill the gold grind force the players out of the caps. 

 

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