Tutorial feedback 2

[The Marinadtor]

I think it has been said before, yes the exam is hard, but I agree that it should be hard especially considering the reward. The only thing I would change is that the enemy in the final exam has double shot, while you don't(even if you have the perk). Either give the player double shot or take it away from the AI, that would level the playing field a bit. I also think that it maybe should be made more obvious that the exam is not mandatory to continue playing the game, but something you can come back to later. I know there is a skip button, but I had many comments yesterday in my clan that they didn't want to take a break from trying the exams for the fear of losing the reward.

Edited April 20, 2018 by The Marinadtor

[Vile Executioner]

Guys, the safest way to do the exam is to rageboard the first one and kill it using your guns on its defend, keep it afloat by not clicking sink, and fighting the Next AI nearby, use a repair cycle, then when your to much damaged, take command of the AI Cerberus, and finish the job.

[The Marinadtor]

2 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

Guys, the safest way to do the exam is to rageboard the first one and kill it using your guns on its defend, keep it afloat by not clicking sink, and fighting the Next AI nearby, use a repair cycle, then when your to much damaged, take command of the AI Cerberus, and finish the job.

I understand that this is the easiest way to do it, but have you really gotten the knowledge of how to do this if you just finished the tutorial? To me this "speed runner" tactic that you know if you are very familiar with the games ins and outs, and to me it should be possible with just the info you get from the tutorial(which it is, as doing the strategy posted by admin). To me it is only a little bit unfair that they have double and charge while you don't.

[Thonys]

in the lesson demasting 

i had boarded the ship to lay the schip dead in the water and after that i wanted to shoot the masts of the ship

chained the ship first in a minute,.. boarded it in 1  minutes.... ,i had still 4 minutes on the clock to do some demasting but i got 10 seconds and where thrown back in entering openworld 

it is a lesson in demasting and the way i do that is a tactic i wanted to use..

so my time was limited on the way i wanted to achieve my goal (when boarding in the demasting lesson the lesson is over.

i would recommend to keep the timer running and finish it after the demasting is done and not when the ship is boarded first .

i recommend more tactics to demast the ship (the final goal)  and not only demasting is the only thing (only shooting at the masts) you can do in the demasting lesson

i needed, or more time (to short ,i ran out of time )

 or more options to lay the ship dead in the water by  chaining and boarding and demast after that.( goal of the lesson )

 

also a point of issue is here is ,we have the level of difficulty 

we have to remember it is the rookie who is doing the tests

and not the veteran

reconsider the level of difficulty (it is known that rookies do not possess knowledge of all the possibilities of the fighting skills at the same time,that is something he /she needs to learn during the game)

Edited April 21, 2018 by Thonys

[Gregory Rainsborough]

11 hours ago, Hullabaloo said:

THE HARDEST PVE mission I have ever done or heard of in thus game ever, IN THE TUTORIAL! are you serious!!!!

 

Not done Epic Events by the sounds of it

[Archaos]

9 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Ok I been trying this all day and keep getting destroyed if I try boarding cause the defence mods on the AI are to strong.  I loose on a defence when they attack big time evne though we have equal or I have more crew.  Muskets do nothing hardly against a defence, same with grenades.  What the hell are you guys doing to win these boards to quick?   I know I"m not some elite player and call myself pretty much an average player, but I should be taking all day to do something that should be average players knowledge and skills. I mean i can kill three players in a PvP before of about the same range ships, but that is players.  I'm all ready frustrated and don't even want to try this again.   This should not be in the tutorial. I don't mind having an epic PvP Mission for rewards, but this shouldn't be for new players at all.

Feel like I wasted most my day cause of bad luck and apparently skill.  I had no problem doing the other parts and the endurance one, but this last part is freaking OP as hell.   

I found the trick with boarding is to instantly start with attack and switch to fire deck guns into his defend at the last second, repeat this every time your deck guns are available, building prep in between.

[z4ys]

2 hours ago, admin said:

Today's stats

Tutorials: 5000 attempts 1600 completions
Challenges: 5400 attempts 500 completions
Final exam: 1400 attempts 200 completions

Is that data per steam acc? Like 5000 unique steam accs tried 1600 succeeded?

[Sir William Hargood]

14 hours ago, admin said:

The hidden goal of any endurance exam is this
Cut off players who dont fit.  

We dont want all new players - we want the right players who will fit.

2 hours ago, admin said:

Today's stats
Tutorials: 5000 attempts 1600 completions
Challenges: 5400 attempts 500 completions
Final exam: 1400 attempts 200 completions

I was under the impression that the function of the Tutorial was to gain more players ... now it appears that the hidden goal is a selection process to cull unsuitable players. Is this a game or Trials for the Navy Seals or SAS? Guys: your business model is very very strange indeed. If I was an investor or on your board of directors I would have a very stern conversation with you regarding your preceding post and its apparent objectives. This a very small niche market game to start with. Now it caters only for a very few select within that very small niche market...Just remember what most current supporters/players want: More player numbers and more PVP.  PVP players don't care for the quality of PVP, they just want more PVP, in whichever shape or form it comes. Your above statement is counter productive. IMHO the Tutorial is show new players the ropes...the basics...not hang them by the rope...

[Grundgemunkey]

5 minutes ago, Sir William Hargood said:

 

I was under the impression that the function of the Tutorial was to gain more players ... now it appears that the hidden goal is a selection process to cull unsuitable players. Is this a game or Trials for the Navy Seals or SAS? Guys: your business model is very very strange indeed. If I was an investor or on your board of directors I would have a very stern conversation with you regarding your preceding post and its apparent objectives. This a very small niche market game to start with. Now it caters only for a very few select within that very small niche market...Just remember what most current supporters/players want: More player numbers and more PVP.  PVP players don't care for the quality of PVP, they just want more PVP, in whichever shape or form it comes. Your above statement is counter productive. IMHO the Tutorial is show new players the ropes...the basics...not hang them by the rope...

i agree ... its all very confusing

the cynic in me thinks this is some kind of exit strategy where the devs can get out of a further development and full release of the game  as part of their agreement with steam .. based on low numbers of players

yet

they seem to be working hard implementing new features and gameplay

the game needs to atract new players and retain them ... not weed out those that are deemed not worthy

 

 

[Project Pluto]

Devs, Please for gods sake show rewards in the tutorial window! All new guys will be pressing skip. I never play tutorials in mmos unless I am forced to and always skip if there is nothing offered to me. You just spend time building it and forgot to give it life. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Project Pluto

[Simon Cadete]

I did it at my first attemp but i can see it being hard for new players. Maybe have a challenge before the last two showing basics on angling your ship before taking a broadside and having to get 20 shots deflected or something. I’m also surprised at how many people are still bad at fighting since most of the attempts were taken by people that have been playing for a while. Maybe letting us know how many attempts were taken by each nation would be a good indication of what’s going on...

Edited April 20, 2018 by Simon Cadete

[Hethwill]

2 minutes ago, Simon Cadete said:

Maybe have a challenge before the last two showing basics on angling your ship before taking a broadside and having to get 20 shots deflected or something.

+1

[Fenris]

5 hours ago, admin said:

Lets see if this will work first before thinking if something is wrong with that exam

Use this tactic. (this is the safest way but the longest)

• There are two ships  Ship A and Ship B
• Slow down one of the ships (Ship A)
  • Load chain in the beginning. 
  • Chain one cerberus (ship A) to 50% using up all chain (it will slow it down a lot) but be careful with aim.
• Destroy another ship Ship B
  • Start shooting the hull on the second one that has intact sails (ship B). 
  • Once you get damaged to 50% planking disengage and repair
  • Once repaired a bit come back and continue focus on ship B 
  • If you aim and turn properly you will get its planking to almost 0 on one side but you will still be damaged
  • Disengage a bit and repair (shooting from distance)
  • Come back to finish it off
  • If you are playing very safely you will destroy Ship B in 2 repair cycles (24 mins)
  • Now when this ship starts sinking - dont come back until it fully sank and pick up repairs if needed (i did not need them)
• Destroy ship A
  • You can do it three ways
    • Now because ship a is on low sails you can rake it and then grape it (a bit more risky) reducing reload
    • Or you can use 2 repair cycles (another 24 mins) to just destroy it by ball
    • Or you can be even more safe - and repair one more time by shooting top mast sections in the process removing all maneuverability from Ship A.

3 things that can help a lot

1. You can time the shots of the enemy - try to angle before it start shooting (reducing incoming damage drastically). If you are turning when broadside starts they will miss all the shots. 
2. Never fight both of them together.
3. And dont fight at close range. (stay further than 250 m as they miss more at this distance. 

In general you can destroy those ships in 1 hour if you playing safe and do not take any risks.
Players dont have to pass this exam to continue playing but if they do - they most likely will not have ANY problems in combat in the future both against AI or Players. 

 

 

First make it very hard, then give some manuals how to do it. Lol?

[Tom Farseer]

My two cents on the tutorials and exams:

The tutorials are fine as a basis but as of now incomplete. In my opinion there should be at least two more tutorials:

1. Adavanced Sailing Tutorial: Covering tacking, counter rudder, getting out of irons in case a tack fails (unlikely on a brig) and maybe speed control via sail trim (turning the yards)
2. Combat Navigation Tutorial: Explain why getting the weather gauge (and keeping it!) is important, and why it is so important to keep a decent angle relative to the enemy.

The demasting exam as it is right now involves a bit too much luck for my taste, mainly because of the atrocious dispersion of the guns used in the exam. Maybe give the players a bit of a hand, there by installing something along the line of Congreve's Sights on the ship. You can finish it on time the first try, but if you are unlucky it can take you hours. This frustrates otherwise potentially good players. (Btw. to any of you talking about hitting the mast 40odd times without demasting: Maybe there's a bug in there? I killed both masts with exactly ten hits at the base each.)

The tutorials should at least give the player sufficient knowledge (if not neccessarily the required practice) to finish the final exam. Right now this is sadly not the case. A player who doesn't know about angling, or when to run for a moment and repair will be crushed by the two cerbs and probably leave the game frustrated. If you give players a bit more knowledge and make it clearer, that they can always return to try the exams again, after gaining a bit more experience, you can get many more competent players aboard.

At the moment, the game basically suggests (not in clear words but rather via ommitting clear explanations) that succeeding in the exams is the minimum skill requirement to even start the game. So I suppose a bit more communication via the ingame interface could do wonders here. The final exams can (and should) be hard, just tell people clearly that it is above beginner level.

Fair winds and following seas, Gents!

[Vile Executioner]

3 hours ago, The Marinadtor said:

I understand that this is the easiest way to do it, but have you really gotten the knowledge of how to do this if you just finished the tutorial? To me this "speed runner" tactic that you know if you are very familiar with the games ins and outs, and to me it should be possible with just the info you get from the tutorial(which it is, as doing the strategy posted by admin). To me it is only a little bit unfair that they have double and charge while you don't.

The tutorial simply gives you all the tools you need to approach the final exam. It tells you how to defeat foes you will find on the open sea. It’s up for the captain to come up with a strategy. Your not going to complete it the first time as a newbie and it’s expected. But once you complete it you should be ready for pvp because you could then think for yourself in combat.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Vile Executioner
Mistype

[victor]

I passed the exam at third attempt using the lazy kiting (time consuming) strategy.

The key points are:

- not taking too much damage in the process of hitting sails at the beginning

- hitting the sails with single chain shots from stern or bow to maximize result

- loot the repairs when you sink the first ship

The rest is just flee (with ball shots in the sails of the pursuer) and repair, turn back and engage, switch side and repair, rinse and repeat with the second NPC.

I'm not that player, so it's feasible. Yet I'd tweak down a little the damage they deal, since those cerberus seem to hit like a carro indefatigable (and even at extreme angles).

Edited April 20, 2018 by victor

[Salty Sails]

Rageboard Exam....Done!

I chained the first cerberus, after that...i sailed away with cerb2... pushed them in the wind, boarding... jump on the full life cerb from NPC... sailed away, waiting for using rum, after that... i boarded the second cerb!

 

No need for boarding moduls or marines... its just a NPC!

[Percival Merewether]

18 hours ago, admin said:

The hidden goal of any endurance exam is this
Cut off players who dont fit. 

We dont want all new players - we want the right players who will fit.

Remember we are not making games just for the money - here is a story about our "F*** you" to Apple Inc and money in general  -  described in USA Today - https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/06/25/apple-pulls-confederate-flag-games/29287163/    or polygon https://www.polygon.com/2015/6/25/8846695/apple-confederate-flag-civil-war/comment/313260912

The real goal of the tutorials to cut off whiners right from the start. Let them refund or do whatever. We want the right players in the game. Wrong players will just go refund after couple of attempts. 

As much as I agree with you - wouldn't it be an idea for the "final" exam to sink 5 players in OW PvP to get them into it? - give them a redeemable cheap ship to do it in. Something like a Sab/Crew Space Frigate - I've had plenty of fun in those.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Percival Merewether

[Vile Executioner]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I'm going to wager that no new player, without coaching or finding some way to cheese, would ever complete the final exam without significant extra time spent learning how to fight AI on the open world.

This in and of itself isn't a problem, but I think some extra explanation in the Final exam screen would be useful to set expectations. I'd also let people know in the Endurance exam that they, "Should preserve their armor and capture repairs because as a captain you should always prepare for an extended engagement," or some such. As a new player who might just barely scrape by the first brig (which is a huge step up in difficulty from the previous exams) and all of a sudden facing the second unexpectedly is a potential rage quit situation, especially if the player has been cautious and taken their time.

I’m sorry, but how did you learn how to play the game? Practice? Setting goals? New players goal should be to complete and claim reward of the final exam. Thus asking the nation and attempting tactics and learning how to fight a hard battle. Most elitist players in this game have learned how to play by setting goals and practicing and consistently putting themselves in hard situations. It’s a learning experience, like admin said, once you complete the mission as a new player(no matter how many times you tried it) you will no longer need someone to hold your hand for you and you will be able to compete with other players in pvp.

[StaleMemes]

5 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

I’m sorry, but how did you learn how to play the game? Practice? Setting goals? New players goal should be to complete and claim reward of the final exam. Thus asking the nation and attempting tactics and learning how to fight a hard battle. Most elitist players in this game have learned how to play by setting goals and practicing and consistently putting themselves in hard situations. It’s a learning experience, like admin said, once you complete the mission as a new player(no matter how many times you tried it) you will no longer need someone to hold your hand for you and you will be able to compete with other players in pvp.

Not to mention anyone who asks in nation or global (at least in France) will be BOMBARDED with advice and offers to help them. 

Just today we were helping a Brit learn how to use de power and handling yards to fire without heel, as he was struggling with that in the exam.

[Sir Texas Sir]

7 hours ago, admin said:

Lets see if this will work first before thinking if something is wrong with that exam

Use this tactic. (this is the safest way but the longest)

• There are two ships  Ship A and Ship B
• Slow down one of the ships (Ship A)
  • Load chain in the beginning. 
  • Chain one cerberus (ship A) to 50% using up all chain (it will slow it down a lot) but be careful with aim.
• Destroy another ship Ship B
  • Start shooting the hull on the second one that has intact sails (ship B). 
  • Once you get damaged to 50% planking disengage and repair
  • Once repaired a bit come back and continue focus on ship B 
  • If you aim and turn properly you will get its planking to almost 0 on one side but you will still be damaged
  • Disengage a bit and repair (shooting from distance)
  • Come back to finish it off
  • If you are playing very safely you will destroy Ship B in 2 repair cycles (24 mins)
  • Now when this ship starts sinking - dont come back until it fully sank and pick up repairs if needed (i did not need them)
• Destroy ship A
  • You can do it three ways
    • Now because ship a is on low sails you can rake it and then grape it (a bit more risky) reducing reload
    • Or you can use 2 repair cycles (another 24 mins) to just destroy it by ball
    • Or you can be even more safe - and repair one more time by shooting top mast sections in the process removing all maneuverability from Ship A.

3 things that can help a lot

1. You can time the shots of the enemy - try to angle before it start shooting (reducing incoming damage drastically). If you are turning when broadside starts they will miss all the shots. 
2. Never fight both of them together.
3. And dont fight at close range. (stay further than 250 m as they miss more at this distance. 

In general you can destroy those ships in 1 hour if you playing safe and do not take any risks.
Players dont have to pass this exam to continue playing but if they do - they most likely will not have ANY problems in combat in the future both against AI or Players. 

 

 

This was pretty much what I would try yesterday, but the problem is I couldn't get enough space between the two ships to solo one.  As some one else stated the lead ship which you didn't do sale damage would hang back with the wounded sails ship.   We use to joke that some times AI is so stupid that they are smarter than some of the GLOBAL US/GB players, I think this is one of those cases.  That and I was very tired when I got home from work right after patched dropped and it prob snow balled my fighting with each missions not being finished. I was taking hour pluss each time with them and not getting any where in the fight.  Every time I got one down I ran out of time or got sunk by the other ship cause just didn't have enough repairs to keep up with there auto pen, odd angle shots and damage out put.  That and as some one stated I'm sure our ship is no where the same wood type as there, it felt very very very squashy.

Got home today and took a nap just now so going to go in fresh and try it again before I have to get some sleep for work tonight.   

I do think this shouldn't be called final exam or something, it needs to be seperated as a Master Com exam or something not  part of the normal tutorial.

Oh and this methoed was exactly how I beat the two brigs easly as you can demast them.  Don't know what is up with the cerberus and why folks including my self can't get demast with over 50 hits to mats.  Maybe HIGH HP of the ship hulls are also towards the mast?  Cerb's mast AR is 79, but the 250M pen of mediums we are using is only 76.  This is what I think is giving folks problems with demasting one of the ships.  If your any where close to that normal fighting range those mast hits aren't penning.  So lucky distance shots aren't counting 

[Sir Texas Sir]

6 hours ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Not done Epic Events by the sounds of it

I actually thought Epic was easier, but than we are in completely fitted out ships with our own double shot and charge (I run double poods on my aggy).   I think they should allow us to use our combat perks in this last exam though since we should be level up by time we do them to have such perks.

19 hours ago, admin said:

We agree that exam is hard.
But we wanted it to be hard.
Maybe it will make feel easier for you that itt was harder initially, (cerberus vs bellona) but it failed to pass the approval as everyone in the office (including people not related to NA) had to pass the final after 1 day of practice 2 cerberuses were passed by everyone. i am very confident that everyone can do it. 

My personal feedback was only one - heel is excessive 
But this exam will be much easier once we fix our old pet peeve pointed out by @Banished Privateer - reworked depower separated from sails. And heel needs to be  slightly reduced for light frigates.

That heel was very much to excessive and I didn't notice the AI being effective as much by it.  The other thing is when I went to battle sails trying to slowly lead them along as I work on one, it would almost drop me to dead calm.  You had to have it more like half sails to keep a decent pace.   It might just be I don't play this tier of ship much so not use to how it handles, closes I have is a Reno I play on one char.  With the Frigate Patrol areas and maybe more battles being around the frigates I might jump into some more light frigates and play them more.

5 hours ago, Archaos said:

I found the trick with boarding is to instantly start with attack and switch to fire deck guns into his defend at the last second, repeat this every time your deck guns are available, building prep in between.

Yah I normally avoid boarding AI cause of there mods for boarding.  Players you can pretty much easly rip through them if you get Prep on them and they don't have the mods.   

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I suspect these buffed AI are mast modded which makes penning more difficult.  I gave up demasting or dealing with the long drawn out cautious approach and just rage boarded them (which a new player would never do). 

I think it's more the distance thing, cause they hit hard with double charge most folks don't want to get closer to them to get the proper pen.

 

Ok I'm going back in wish me luck guys maybe I'll get it today...lol

[DeRuyter]

3 hours ago, Tom Farseer said:

My two cents on the tutorials and exams:

The tutorials are fine as a basis but as of now incomplete. In my opinion there should be at least two more tutorials:

1. Adavanced Sailing Tutorial: Covering tacking, counter rudder, getting out of irons in case a tack fails (unlikely on a brig) and maybe speed control via sail trim (turning the yards)
2. Combat Navigation Tutorial: Explain why getting the weather gauge (and keeping it!) is important, and why it is so important to keep a decent angle relative to the enemy.

The demasting exam as it is right now involves a bit too much luck for my taste, mainly because of the atrocious dispersion of the guns used in the exam. Maybe give the players a bit of a hand, there by installing something along the line of Congreve's Sights on the ship. You can finish it on time the first try, but if you are unlucky it can take you hours. This frustrates otherwise potentially good players. (Btw. to any of you talking about hitting the mast 40odd times without demasting: Maybe there's a bug in there? I killed both masts with exactly ten hits at the base each.)

The tutorials should at least give the player sufficient knowledge (if not neccessarily the required practice) to finish the final exam. Right now this is sadly not the case. A player who doesn't know about angling, or when to run for a moment and repair will be crushed by the two cerbs and probably leave the game frustrated. If you give players a bit more knowledge and make it clearer, that they can always return to try the exams again, after gaining a bit more experience, you can get many more competent players aboard.

At the moment, the game basically suggests (not in clear words but rather via ommitting clear explanations) that succeeding in the exams is the minimum skill requirement to even start the game. So I suppose a bit more communication via the ingame interface could do wonders here. The final exams can (and should) be hard, just tell people clearly that it is above beginner level.

Fair winds and following seas, Gents!

+1 My thoughts exactly.  In particular an advanced sailing tutorial covering manual tacking and wearing. That should be before the advanced maneuvering with yards. I was surprised that the advanced maneuvers tutorial didn't cover tacking/wearing.

I did also notice that it is not clear you can skip tutorials and come back later. I know the skip button is there but the question has been asked on the forum.

[Archaos]

54 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Yah I normally avoid boarding AI cause of there mods for boarding.  Players you can pretty much easly rip through them if you get Prep on them and they don't have the mods. 

I have done the final exam twice today on alts and both times I started by getting prep up and sailing straight into one and boarding it or letting it board me. Immediately you can initiate attack or counter attack and the AI will go to defend then at last second change to fire deck cannons and you will kill around 16 of his crew to your 1, you can then either counter attack into his grenades or musket if you have enough prep left of you can just brace till your deck cannons are ready again. Just watch out in case he attacks and be ready to hit defend. Will take a few rounds to get him down but you should win. Depending on the position of the second AI you may be taking some damage from him, if you have taken too much damage by the time you capture the first then switch ships (dont forget to transfer across your repairs and rum). Hit surgeon to replenish your crew and then take on the remaining AI. With only one then to face I usually dismasted him then graped his stern and boarded once he had less crew than me.

For dismasting you need to be quite close for your shots to count, on one of my original tries I did the kite method turning now and again trying to dismast and I got around 160 mast hits but no masts. I think that is because they were all at longer ranges. I find when quite close the masts go down relatively quickly. Also if you use the first AI you capture the stern is indicated as loaded with charge so maybe that can help too.

The final exam is not skill its just knowing the tricks to beat the AI. I still think the final exam should be separate from the tutorial as a separate challenge.

 

[Christendom]

I logged into an alt yesterday that needed the XP and breezed through the exams and the final.  For the final I just played the angle, kite and focus 1 side game until one was gone.  Then I disengaged, repaired and set upon the 2nd one.  I had to repair another time during that one and hate to kite away from a bit.  Was a little annoying, but not overly difficult.  Actually the most annoying bit was finding out I couldn't trade the new ship to my main account and now I have to go through it again....

I am however not a new player and I don't think the tutorials were enough prep to adequately teach a new player the ropes to pass the endurance test and the final exam.  I also think the notion of only allow players who pass the final able to join clans absurdly stupid and completely counter productive in a game that desperately NEEDS new players.  

I would make the following additions to the tutorials if this were my shop. 

Tutorials - 
- the current 4 are fine
- add an additional one that teaches players to evade fire and sail off and repair
- add another one that teaches them basic OW navigation.  Undock, use map, use protractor, set a course sail and dock back up.
Pass the set of tutorials and that person can now join a clan and is an ensign or whatever

Exams - 
- Rename the endurance one and change to to just 1 enemy.  Call it like "sink and Destroy"
- Remove the final exam portion and replace it with the endurance one.
- Call the entire thing like "leftenant's exam.  Player passes and he is then given the rank just under master and commander

Final Exam - Rename this to be like Advanced Post Captain exam or something like that.  Have this be a separate thing and an in game achievement or title.  Kinda like in world of warcraft where if you wanted to join a certain group you would link an achievement to show you're not a moron.  I'd like the current final exam to be some sort of feather in your cap to separate @admin's men from the boys without excluding too many people and actually retaining players.

Just a few thoughts.

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Christendom