Boarding + 'Determined Defender' suggestion

[Hethwill]

Let's chill, ships weren't at full sail all the time anyway, especially during battle  so... compromise, that's what we are discussing.

[Christendom]

Determined defender should act as if the first grapple lines were cut. If the ship is still in the position to be boarded a 2nd time after 90 secs it should be open to being boarded.  

Easy solution.  DD saves you once, but it’s not the ridiculous guarantee it is now.  

[Slim McSauce]

3 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Determined defender should act as if the first grapple lines were cut. If the ship is still in the position to be boarded a 2nd time after 90 secs it should be open to being boarded.  

Easy solution.  DD saves you once, but it’s not the ridiculous guarantee it is now.  

lol that you need a perk to cut a single grapple. Boarding is fucked, just admit it. Perks are a lazy solution to what should be a dynamic part of the game. Moral, Crew amount, and the actual act of initiating a boarding that decides the success of a boarding action needs to exists for boarding not to be crappy.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Christendom]

7 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

lol that you need a perk to cut a single grapple. Boarding is fucked, just admit it. Perks are a lazy solution to what should be a dynamic part of the game.

We have far bigger fish to fry than fixing one small aspect of combat.  Hence the fix to perks. Quick and easy to code.  Revamping boarding is not.  I would prefer imperfect balancing to none.  

Anyway the collective opinion is against DD just like it was the first time it was introduced.  Not sure why it was brought back.  No one requested it.  No one who actually plays anyway.  

Edited May 7, 2018 by Christendom

[Slim McSauce]

15 minutes ago, Christendom said:

We have far bigger fish to fry than fixing one small aspect of combat.  Hence the fix to perks. Quick and easy to code.  Revamping boarding is not.  I would prefer imperfect balancing to none.  

Anyway the collective opinion is against DD just like it was the first time it was introduced.  Not sure why it was brought back.  No one requested it.  No one who actually plays anyway.  

Once UI and tutorial and whatever big is being worked on right now is done, there really is no excuse for these quick half-ass features. It's been a while since we've had a good existential crisis for this game where everyone's wondering whether it'll survive or not. We'll know pretty soon when we see how able the devs are at creating full thought out, dynamic systems for the game.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Angus MacDuff]

11 minutes ago, Christendom said:

We have far bigger fish to fry than fixing one small aspect of combat.  Hence the fix to perks. Quick and easy to code.  Revamping boarding is not.  I would prefer imperfect balancing to none.  

Anyway the collective opinion is against DD just like it was the first time it was introduced.  Not sure why it was brought back.  No one requested it.  No one who actually plays anyway.  

It looks like the collective opinion of the small minority who post on this forum is split.  Most players (and all of the players who have been boarded by the pros) might be very happy with DD.

[Hethwill]

DD itself is not a bad idea, represents some pretty hardcore crew that will sell dearly their ship and even beat off enemy assaults a few times. Does the "enemy must have 30% more crew" represents this ? Or can we change it ? Would bonus to Defense be better ? Maybe Disengage + Defense bonus, like a mix of Axes and Expert Defender ?

 

[Archaos]

36 minutes ago, Christendom said:

The act of chaining/disabling a ship and boarding is perhaps the most historically accurate aspect of the combat in this game.  The boarding mini-game needs work but I actually kinda like it.  Majority of the ships historically were taken by boarding or disabled enough to the fact that the captains surrendered.  Unlike NA the price was always in the other ship and it's contents, not imaginary marks.  It was in fact very difficult to actually sink a ship.  

 

This may be true historically but as you say yourself the ships were chained and disabled which would indicate a lot of damage and most probably quite a few casualties so morale would have been low. I would like to know how many ships historically were boarded by another ship early on in a battle with only a few shots fired and the larger crewed ships company fully intact, I dont think it would have been many. Morale has to play a big part in affecting DD otherwise we will be back to the old boarding meta and ships being boarded and captured with hardly a shot being fired.

[jodgi]

21 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

lol that you need a perk to cut a single grapple. Boarding is fucked, just admit it. Perks are a lazy solution to what should be a dynamic part of the game. Moral, Crew amount, and the actual act of initiating a boarding that decides the success of a boarding action needs to exists for boarding not to be crappy.

 

10 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

there really is no excuse for these quick half-ass features. It's been a while since we've had a good existential crisis for this game where everyone's wondering whether this game will survive or not. We'll know pretty soon when we see how able the devs are at creating full thought out, complex systems for the game.

Lol

admin: "What do you guys think of this one specific thing?"

Slim: "We need a million billion other things! While I'm at it; The game sucks and unless you fulfill all my wildest dreams it's going to die... No, this is on point, can't you see that? Lol"

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Archaos said:

This may be true historically but as you say yourself the ships were chained and disabled which would indicate a lot of damage and most probably quite a few casualties so morale would have been low. I would like to know how many ships historically were boarded by another ship early on in a battle with only a few shots fired and the larger crewed ships company fully intact, I dont think it would have been many. Morale has to play a big part in affecting DD otherwise we will be back to the old boarding meta and ships being boarded and captured with hardly a shot being fired.

I don't have numbers, but I can say for sure that a Victory size warship was never taken by a Prince

[Vile Executioner]

1 minute ago, Oberon74 said:

I don't have numbers, but I can say for sure that a Victory size warship was never taken by a Prince

If you lose a victory to a prince then you shouldn’t be sailing the victory.

[Angus MacDuff]

Just now, Vile Executioner said:

If you lose a victory to a prince then you shouldn’t be sailing the victory.

lol, not my point, but "touché"

[Hethwill]

5 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I would like to know how many ships historically were boarded by another ship early on in a battle with only a few shots fired and the larger crewed ships company fully intact

In truth the crew conducting the boarding didn't have to beat the bigger numbers entirely, just defeat the weather deck and castles . There's no way the other ship going to sail without a place from where to control the rigs , hence it is defeated and out of battle.

Say a 1st rate has 1200 crew. 900 might be in the gun decks, rest 300 up top ready for action and handling rigging. Those would fight a boarding action, not 1200.

 

[Corona Lisa]

Its a skill (awareness) to not be near enemies when going through the wind to avoid boarding. Determinded Defender just provides braindead safety for bad gameplay, especially for big ships which are too strong already anyway..

@admin I question your historical points about DD based on the example of Victory vs Detourable. Your statement:

Just like brave Redoutable was able to fend off all boarding attempts from HMS Victory, you, if you have enough crew, can avoid boarding attempts if you have this perk.

"The British superiority in battle was based on gunnery tactics and its ships were able to fire more accurate shots than the enemies. The French and Spanish had much more soldiers on their ships so it was in the British interest to have a battle based on gunnery. When a boarding party threatened, this showed British vulnerability."

Detourable tried to board Victory actually, but got raked and lost 200 - 300 crew while trying. It was hard to board the Victory because it had more decks than the Detourable, which is already in the boarding minigame integrated.

"The French crew were about to board Victory when Temeraire intervened, firing on the exposed French crew at point blank range, killing or wounding 200 men, including Lucas and Dupotet, struck by a bullet to the knee,^[23] who nevertheless remained at their stations.^[22] The crew of Redoutable rushed to man her artillery and engage Temeraire with her starboard battery,^[26] Soon, Tonnant took a position at stern of Redoutable,^[22] which thus found herself fired upon from three larger ships. In the ensuing cannonade, Redoutable lost most of her artillery, including two guns that burst, killing several gunners.^[22] Temeraire hailed for Redoutable to surrender"

https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/history-of-war/4-insane-military-tactics/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Redoutable_(1791)

 

TLDR

DD is bs, from gameplay perspective and from historic aspects.

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Hethwill said:

In truth the crew conducting the boarding didn't have to beat the bigger numbers entirely, just defeat the weather deck and castles . There's no way the other ship going to sail without a place from where to control the rigs , hence it is defeated and out of battle.

Say a 1st rate has 1200 crew. 900 might be in the gun decks, rest 300 up top ready for action and handling rigging. Those would fight a boarding action, not 1200.

 

Yes, those 900 down below are continuing to pound broadsides into the opponent.  If there is no target, they're coming up

[Teutonic]

7 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

DD itself is not a bad idea, represents some pretty hardcore crew that will sell dearly their ship and even beat off enemy assaults a few times. Does the "enemy must have 30% more crew" represents this ? Or can we change it ? Would bonus to Defense be better ? Maybe Disengage + Defense bonus, like a mix of Axes and Expert Defender ?

 

I'm not saying "Cut DD because it's terrible" and others who also dislike DD as it is currently also do not want to cut it entirely.

We would like it adjusted because currently DD gives a near guarantee of safety from all boarding.

30% is just too high, it's utterly ridiculous, top on the fact that we can just rum crew whenever we may be in a bad spot....

as it stands, DD needs to be adjusted. I am not saying Boarding is perfect, I would love for a change to boarding mechanics too. But the quickest fix I would argue is to lower the 30% to 15% and see how that works.

[Christendom]

@Jon Snow lets go preach it brotha!

[Hethwill]

4 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

Yes, those 900 down below are continuing to pound broadsides into the opponent.  If there is no target, they're coming up

 you sure ? Gun crews kept unleashing volleys, espeically true in ships with 1 or more gun decks ( which we do not have during boarding action... sad...). Once you get the weather decks and castles the 900 guys will be funneled in stairs, and slaghtered while coming up. No sir, not gonna work, they better keep firing until the colors are struck. RN proved this worked very well and Marines were posted to defend the stairs so no boarders could go down to struck the gun crews - they were precious.

Is DD correctly simulating this by mandatory 30% more crew ?!...

That's what we are discussing  

 

[Slim McSauce]

31 minutes ago, jodgi said:

 

Lol

admin: "What do you guys think of this one specific thing?"

Slim: "We need a million billion other things! While I'm at it; The game sucks and unless you fulfill all my wildest dreams it's going to die... No, this is on point, can't you see that? Lol"

whatever, POTCO (a kid's mmo) has more realistic boarding than NA where you actually grapple an enemies ship to board it . You either expect better or you don't, fake features like a hardlocked % perk don't count. I've seen better attempts at coding by children not getting paid for their efforts. Not even mad, just disappointed.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Archaos]

43 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Is DD correctly simulating this by mandatory 30% more crew ?!..

At the start of a battle for larger ships I would say yes, but as the ship takes damage and loses crew they start to become demoralized. But we must also bear in mind that the attacking crews morale may also be lower due to them having taken damage too, so maybe the effectiveness of boarding mods should be dependent on the morale of the crew too. A low morale crew are hardly likely to board when you are faced with equal numbers.

Whether we look at it historically or in game it is just wrong for a much smaller ship to board and take a larger one without surprise or having first inflicted a lot of damage. In game we do not have the element of surprise as all ships are cleared for action at the start of a battle.

[Farrago]

Obviously boarding needs a whole new process, but in the meantime...

The value of Determined Defender is it puts the brakes on the instant rage boarding which is also IMO not realistic. It seems to be a tactic for those who have trouble winning a sailing/gunnery battle but they've got that whole clicky thing down. Perhaps the percentage requirement is too high but I don't think it is: 30% more crew is not a very high bar. Kill some crew while preserving your own... then you can board.

For those thinking it is too high or want it removed, I'd like to hear examples of numbers scenarios between combat ships that they think don't make sense. The one I can think of is versus trade ships. Perhaps Determined Defender should not apply to trade ships??

But if you're going to nerf down  (or remove) DD, then I would at least like to see a short malus after winning a boarding: a period of time when you would have to get your crew back on your own ship, get them untangled, cut the grappling ropes, get your crew up in the rigging, etc. I'd say something along the lines of a reload/rigging shock effect that lasts a significant amount of time (~1 min?). Basically boarding and being boarded is a traumatic event even for the victors and should reflect that.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Farrago
corrected typo

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

I've seen better attempts at coding by children not getting paid for their efforts.

Classy.

Calm down, I don't think it's worth it 

[Sir Texas Sir]

7 hours ago, admin said:

Now that we have given some time to DD to settle in (with 30% bonus) lets have a honest discussion about its effects on the game play and the need for tuning?

What are your thoughts? 

I think it's been mention before that maybe it shouldn't be always active, maybe you have to have your boarding prep on to have it activated. I been in a few fights we all where sitting in a circle jerking off (excuse me explaination but that is what It felt like cause I was in the middle of a gank) and no one could board each other even though we where all sitting at zero knts cause we all had DD.   Even though I was sitting at 100% board prep with board mods and all and even had more crew than one of the ships by 20-30 guys but it was just a hair off the 30% needed to board him.  One of them (the one I was trying to board before his friends caught up) was not even running boarding prep when I pushed him into irons, that was when he blew the whistle when I get the dreaded, "NOT ENOUGH CREW."   Message even though I had more than them.  It was a lost fight, but I could of at least took out one of them before the others sunk me.   So I say if your not prepped than it isn't active.  This also means while it's active you can take more damage to your crew if your set to board prep all battle and you take crew from your sailing and gunnery.  It's a good trade off of the skill.

If you make any easy changes I would drop it from 30% to 20% crew needed.

[Sir Texas Sir]

3 hours ago, Christendom said:

Most people who do not understand the process of boarding think it's far too easy. 

I kinda think it's funny I notice a lot of comments about the easy rage boarders are folks I never seen PvP or on the leader board or doing RvR.   Yes some one can quickly push you into wind and rage board you, but if you fall for that than more than likely your a nob in the first place and they would prob out gun you in a fight if you don't spend it all running.   In an actuall PvP/RvR fight it's way more than that and not very easy to get some one turned, slowed down and boarded.  99% of the boards I done in Port Battles was cause some one turned into irons and got stuck and I said hell, screw it and started my board prep and pulled them while they where still stuck in irons.  They had zero prep and more crew than me but I beat them cause most folks don't have a clue how to play the rock paper scissors game either and they just mash buttons.  Than they complained we raged boarded them and it was unfair.

 

I liked it being tied to board prep, cause how are you going to push away that board attempt if your not ready and maybe a cool down would be good like the one they have to keep folks from doing chain boards.

[p i t]

#ImWithRediii

 

It completely destroys cool knowledge perk boarding axes... why use that when DD does a lot more.

Simply put, it allows people to sail however they feel like with no consequence of being boarded. That's a problem!