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Forthcoming Patch 23. Hercules, Tutorial and Map teaser

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1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

because I don't want solo only PvE, I want PvE/PvP game play.  This server not matter how much you want to call it a PvP server it is not a PvP only server.  I actually think the PvE server is a waste of space and useless in development and have no reason to go there.  I do enjoy the game and all aspects of it, but like many other games you got to let folks grow and level up in safety or they will stop playing your game.    How about you remind us how many folks went and played on NA:L a PvP only game, tell me again how many folks even got out of the basic cutter?   Only a few folks and those few are what we call die hard PvPers on here and they don't make up the majority of the game.  I don't even do missions myself, I grind open world fleets or hostility fleets, but i see the reason you need it.  Mainly cause I play in a nation that has the most causal and PvEer's per say.  What nation do you play in ADMIN?  I bet you it's not US or even GB?   When was the last time you got a new player in your clan that wasn't some one you brought from another game or Dev team?   Why are the PvPers not attacking each other ports?  Why are they not fighting each other?  Why do they need to farm capitals for newbs to kill all the time?  I love the PvP aspects of this game, but I also know we need the guys that love to trade, PvE and do the back ground work to make this game run.  You know the numbers of players that log in every day.  I'm going to bet you the majority of those players are causals that only log into the game for a few hours and don't go out hunting for PVP 100% of the time.  Yes they will PvP, but they don't want to do it 100% of the time.  There are *GASP* folks that actually like doing trade runs and running missions, learning new builds before they take them out and try them on other players.   I ask you what will happen if all those players leave right now, never log on again ever.  How many players will you have left if you have nothing but the pure PvP wolves left?  Show us the log in data from last week of how many players logged in each day and how many of them got a PvP kill or was killed in PvP compared to those that just logged in and did PvE/Trade runs.   I'm going to bet the number of none hard core PVP players is way more than folks try to play it off, and you won't show that data cause it will prove that you need the casual players to make the game work.

 

If you want a PvP only server than remove all safe zones, AI and missions and see how long this game last on nothing but pure PvP.

Better yet crank up a server with only that and see how man folks go play on it.  I bet it's numbers will be lower than the PvE only server.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

agreed. if you aren't aiming for casuals, if you want your PvP server and full risk and reward. remove the safe zones, remove missions, make everything OW only. the truth hurts and we know what would happen.

>2018
>Playing NA unironically
>Playing NA not from regret of not being able to get refund

>Not realising Devs see us less as customers more like subservient annoyances

I seriously hope you guys don't do this.

Edited by PenguPirate
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5 hours ago, admin said:

I really want you to explain to me.
Can you please elaborate or explain why did you choose pvp server and not pve server?

Admin, I love you for these very wise words. Couldn’t have said it any better

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5 hours ago, admin said:

Can you please elaborate or explain why did you choose pvp server and not pve server?

People choose a mixed PvE/PvP server because they want to feel part of something bigger than just themselves and shooting AI. 

People play MMOs so that they can interact with other people. If there's a larger RvR and PvP war going on around them, then the traders, crafters, and econ folks, and people more focused on PvE or exploration, etc. can still interact with that game world and derive some satisfaction from how it fares... In an ideal MMO world the PvE content intersects with PvP content in meaningful ways (i.e. economic activity, admiralty ship crafting or AI ship hunting affecting national production levels, etc.).  That way players across the spectrum of PvE-loving to PvP-loving can meaningfully feed into the larger game world. All players could be part of the war effort without directly going head to head against other players.  And, *gasp*, maybe those players of different PvP tolerances even like to dabble in PvP from time to time!

Limiting the social dynamics of the game to basically Red vs. Green is further pushing this game towards being the "World's Worst Match-Making Engine (TM)." 

The fact that you seem to want to make this an all or nothing PvP affair, through either unwillingness or the vision to create PvE and PvP content is short sighted. This will doom the game to a few hundred die/try-hards willing to put up with the lack of decent content for decent naval combat. This is where we are today.  If you merged the paradigms, like most MMOs do, then you'd have a much broader appeal, more diversity for people to stay interested and a much longer time-horizon for potential sustainability of the game population.

As it stands, there's just no content for both PvE and PvP, and we as players don't have the tools to generate that content like other games have.  It makes me very sad.

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5 hours ago, admin said:

I really want you to explain to me.
Can you please elaborate or explain why did you choose pvp server and not pve server?

You do realise that you would have a lot bigger population on PvE server if you would have proper PvE content in this game?

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7 hours ago, admin said:

we are not trying to attract casual crowd - sorry. And NEVER planned or plan to. in fact there is no place where we ever said this is a casual friendly game. 

Funny fact! (kudos to all of you). NO-ONE HERE IS CASUAL. Even if you think you are casual YOU ARE NOT.

You are playing one of the most hardcore games. Think about it.
Full loot. There is no insurance too. Everything you carry with you is lost on death. Full gank almost anywhere. You can lose most ports forever. Some nations can lose access to admiralty (forever). You are not safe ANYWHERE. You have to sail for hours. Most ships must be built by players. No resources are provided by NPCs (only players). Game is 99% skill based. And can destroy enemy 25 to 0 even in smaller ships if you are skilled. There is no tutorial and interface is non-existent.

Dont tell me you are casual.

There NEVER were a single casual player in this game. You are all BAD HARDCORE M****ERS. excuse my french. EVEN if you are on the PVE server.

For all this supposed "hard-core" crowd, the only real "hard-core" gameplay is for the new players while being very CareBearing for the veteran players who have grinded their way through or mostly through the progression tree. While increasing combat value through grind is nothing new, the special part of NA is that there is no filter between the max geared and the non geared. Instead of a matchmaker ensuring that the absolute spread in combat power doesn't fall out of certain bounds, the ridiculous bonus caps and Perk system mess up much of the supposed skill matching and also how the different ship types relate to each other.

This is further exacerbated by the winner takes all nature of combat rewards, which quickly teaches newbies every fight is an auto loss. Either they can't catch the ganker, or they can't kill it. So loss of considerable in game asset and progression for little return.

Progression, money sinks and the Module/SkillBook/Perk system mean the game is hardest in the first few weeks/months and then gets progressively easier after x hundred hours of playtime. My play experience now is mostly easy mode, in comparison the first 2 months were very tough. This is not due to skill increase, I still mostly lose PvP fights, but the discrepancy in gear is much less or non existent and I can now easily replace losses, which makes all the difference.

This is not skill based gameplay, but pure grind. This also shows in the focus on meta exploitation and the ganking/farming behaviour of many players (myself included, I gank if the opportunity comes along, though I don't farm) which is so damaging for newbies.

For all the talk of PVP some obsess over in this thread, there seems to be little organised PvP among the "skilled" max geared players here. Something that would be a given if it was all about "skill". Also, at least some of the lauded solo players here are just meta abusers, if one looks with what setup they are sailing with.

In conclusion, the average poster on this thread are not "BAD HARDCORE M****ERS"  but rich old overweight slobs sitting on their thrones of gold being served by the great unwashed while dreaming of their (imaginary) golden youth.

The problem with this setup is that here the great unwashed can choose to leave, and are not being given much reason to stay except for the unspoken and uncommunicated promise that life will get much easier later, if they are willing to sink in the playtime.

Edited by SigInt
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Lots to like in this update, great job Devs. I am particularly happy to see some clan management tools at last. Huzzah!

One thing I'd like to suggest as a tweak is the concept of ammo loadouts. I like the idea of limiting shot but I wonder if it would be more interesting and challenging if you had to decide what shot to load. Shot types e.g Chain, Standard, Double etc could be a craftable item which would open up more opportunities for crafting and income generation for crafters. If the shot also had an impact on your cargo capacity we could well see captains having to strike a balance between ammo load outs and repairs. 

I'd prefer to see that than a strict/arbitrary limit on the number of times I can fire a particular type of ammo. I'd like to see this approach for Double Shot & Double Charge as well - shot/ammo selection should be a skill/experience thing as well as general sailing ability.

 

Edited by Zorg the Merciless
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8 hours ago, admin said:

I really want you to explain to me.
Can you please elaborate or explain why did you choose pvp server and not pve server?

Because it is clear that over time AI fights will be boring and there is no alternative pve content tree that could keep ones interest. That becomes clear a few hours into the game. If the PVE was something like Port Royale with story modules, NPC/port interaction, Dev generated meta stories like in ED combined with the NA combat engine, this would look very different.

PvP offers the variability only human adversaries can offer and the resource sink any game needs. However, choosing PvP and being forced into PvP are 2 very different things. "Forced" not meaning having to accept combat when in tactically disadvantageous position, but having to accept combat when it materially damages ones resource base (only really concerns Newbie players) or impedes on Real Life time constraints (aka I have an hour to play, not 90 minutes). Time consumption for an AI combat can be gauged fairly well, PvP intrusion throws this all to hell.

 

Edited by SigInt
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9 hours ago, Hullabaloo said:

I agree with this, but as it is they are already camping capitals. But with these changes and with OW tagged AI battles already staying open in green zones, Capitals are now probably the least safe places to PvE. New players/PVE/slot grinding players would now be better off operating in more out of the way places, outside the protected Zone. This could be good, if new players are aware of this, camping capitals would then not be so prevalent because players would be spread more evenly across the map. But the worry is that in practice most newer players (who do not fully understand these mechanics) will simply risk running missions just outside the zone at their capital and tagging AI inside it, the sharks will be circling and these new players will be continually sunk, it will take too long to make gold and gain xp and they will quit. A lot depends on how strong the Ai reinforcements will be and how quickly players respond to the changes. We can only test it.

Also devs should create profitable trade routes that do not end in capitals. The system of trading national goods as it works now is too focused on capitals: no matter where you go and collect the goods, you shall deliver them in capitals to make a good profit (that justifies the time for the long hauling trip). This means - with the nerf of safe zones - that trader gankers do not have to hunt anything, since it will be enough for them to sit in front of capitals and wait for traders coming in and out.

Also - now that even doing missions will be a risky task - I do not see why missions shall have such a poor loot. Where is the risk vs reward here? More risk, the same - almost inexistent - loot.

The policy of beating dead horses never gave good results.

 

Edited by victor
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10 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Why not let folks level up and get training and than come out when they feel like it.

At first I have to thank @admin for revealing his true nature as the biggest badass mo**cka by finally clarifying what we deal with here. 

I would always have supported cub protection and I was fine with the safe zones. This patch is more like what i wished for though. 

@Sir Texas Sir you give a lot of thoughtful advise here, though the point is: most people will never "feel like it".

Please peeps, use the map. So many ports many people have hardly ever visited. I never understood why one does PvE at capitals. The feeling of safety given to some amount falsely by the safe areas is the reason people swarm this area. PvEers attract PVPers as the first just come in big numbers. Big numbers calls for numbers of hunters. Force me as a hunter to search for my prey. Make me roam the seas and not waiting in front of capitals.

The chain limitation will make me lose so many ships and my foes hopefully even more. Love that!

To all a good day, enjoy the sun. When I'm back darkness will fall upon u bitches!

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4 minutes ago, Palatinose said:

At first I have to thank @admin for revealing his true nature as the biggest badass mo**cka by finally clarifying what we deal with here. 

I would always have supported cub protection and I was fine with the safe zones. This patch is more like what i wished for though. 

@Sir Texas Sir you give a lot of thoughtful advise here, though the point is: most people will never "feel like it".

Please peeps, use the map. So many ports many people have hardly ever visited. I never understood why one does PvE at capitals. The feeling of safety given to some amount falsely by the safe areas is the reason people swarm this area. PvEers attract PVPers as the first just come in big numbers. Big numbers calls for numbers of hunters. Force me as a hunter to search for my prey. Make me roam the seas and not waiting in front of capitals.

The chain limitation will make me lose so many ships and my foes hopefully even more. Love that!

To all a good day, enjoy the sun. When I'm back darkness will fall upon u bitches!

 

seriously?

why do PvE at capitals its simple there you can buy and sell alot of stuff if people split into unused ports hunters will just follow becouse there are so called spys plus in order too get good price on your goods you may need too transport it.

People like too play it safe.

as for bold text:  do not kid yourself it would be intresting for a week then you would be back at capitals

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15 hours ago, admin said:

the sooner players realize that ship loss is nothing to worry about - the better.

Most important statement so far, anyone playing this should finally realise this. :)

 

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11 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Tell me why we hardly ever see players killed in front of the Spain, Dutch, Dane, Swedes capitals?  Hell even the French?

I tried all capitals. Problem with Spain and Swedes is that there are rarely good fights with a lot of players there. Dutch are far away. French get visitors. Noone visits Prussia and that's my problem. If I sail to generate content for someone, would be nice to have someone do this for me as well. I preferred to be hunted in Commonwealth, more content. 

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5 minutes ago, vazco said:

I tried all capitals. Problem with Spain and Swedes is that there are rarely good fights with a lot of players there. Dutch are far away. French get visitors. Noone visits Prussia and that's my problem. If I sail to generate content for someone, would be nice to have someone do this for me as well. I preferred to be hunted in Commonwealth, more content. 

Noone visits prussia because they only revengegank (hansa)

same with danes, they come in masses with fast ships

And tbh same with swedes

If french come you get a fight vs 25 with 1sts and fast ships

 

etc.

only KPR is too stupid ... sorry to say that :D

Edited by rediii
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I have to admit that I am addicted to this game, I Keep trying to take a break, but still log into Forums every day to see whats new.

I am really looking forward to the new patch, in my opinion it is another step in the right direction.

Admin is correct, this game is not for the casual Player, I have been asked by friends  is this a game for them, and my answer is always, only if you are prepared to invest time in the game, if they only want to log in, sail for 30 minutes and then log off again, I tell them to go Play PUBG or WOWS.

I have to admit I do get attached to my Pixels, but I am receiving therapy, and in a while I will be able to lose a first rate without kicking the wife or having an argument with my pets (or possibly reversed).

The admin is never going to be able to make everyone happy with their plans, they have always said that. If you dont like how the game is going, go and Play something else, instead of trying to bring everyone round to your opinion.

 

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11 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

NO one is asking for more safe zones or what not, what we are asking is stop changing things that aren't broken and work.   If these PvPers want more action than they should be hunting each other down, flipping each other ports, killing each other in the Patrol zones, not camping capitals.   

This would be happening if such players could find each other and be able to have fun meaningful fights. The issue is that all mechanisms for such meaningful fights are broken:

  • for hostility you have to spend 3-4 hours PvE'ing in order to have a 45 minutes of PvP in PB (I just tried this yesterday)
  • Patrol Zones worked for some time until some teams started ganking them. Fights turned from meaningful to random and frustrating, not based on skill level but on your gank count
  • there's no other way to find other experienced people for a meaningful fight - that's why eg. fleet practice is so unpopular

People go to country capitals as it's the only place where other people go. Recently Mortimer became something of a meeting place. Two capitals can't be a meeting place, as it would defeat the purpose.

In my opinion we still miss fix for patrol zones and hostility, as well as some other means of finding each other in OW for a meaningful and fun fight.

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3 minutes ago, vazco said:

This would be happening if such players could find each other and be able to have fun meaningful fights. The issue is that all mechanisms for such meaningful fights are broken:

  • for hostility you have to spend 3-4 hours PvE'ing in order to have a 45 minutes of PvP in PB (I just tried this yesterday)
  • Patrol Zones worked for some time until some teams started ganking them. Fights turned from meaningful to random and frustrating, not based on skill level but on your gank count
  • there's no other way to find other experienced people for a meaningful fight - that's why eg. fleet practice is so unpopular

People go to country capitals as it's the only place where other people go. Recently Mortimer became something of a meeting place. Two capitals can't be a meeting place, as it would defeat the purpose.

In my opinion we still miss fix for patrol zones and hostility, as well as some other means of finding each other in OW for a meaningful and fun fight.

Flipping a old 4th rate port takes 3 missions with 10 1sts = around 60 min pve

Old 1st rate ports take way too much time tho

Patrolzone BR limit is way too high. patrol should be for small geams not for trafalgar battles

Edited by rediii

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33 minutes ago, rediii said:

Noone visits prussia because they only revengegank (hansa)

same with danes, they come in masses with fast ships

And tbh same with swedes

If french come you get a fight vs 25 with 1sts and fast ships

 

etc.

only KPR is too stupid ... sorry to say that :D

Good news everyone - Hansa is not in the game any more! Come visit Prussia! We're at LT and Rio Seco.

  • In Denmark I rarely see anyone. I would be happy to have multiple fast ships fighting against eg. our few tanky ones. It's rarely anything happens there.
  • Swedes usually don't come at all, or come in numbers and skill, outnumbering you 4 vs 1 with skilled players in bigger ships. It seems they don't want content, they want empty home waters. That's what they get (and that's why my "friend" has an account there).
  • Fights with French are fun. I had multiple interesting fights there. Yes, they try to outnumber you, but so do Pirates at Mortimer. Even outunumbered, you have some chance for a fair fight
  • Pirates are like French. They come in numbers, with a bit less skilled players. Multiple people come to Mortimer as well, a lot of interesting fights there, not only against Pirates.
  • My experience with KPR is that they out-gank you 25 vs 5, or they don't attack you. The only reason to go there is a break in their safe zone, which attracts other people as well. Maybe something changed recently though.

 

It seems everyone's experience varies a bit :) 

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2 hours ago, Palatinose said:

 

. I never understood why one does PvE at capitals.

For trading

Profitable long range national goods trade routes ALWAYS end up in faction capitals

In capitals you can sell things easily since there is higher demand of goods

For missions

In capitals you buy easily crafted ships, cannons, repairs and fittings that in any other port are difficult to find (due to very low low population).

In short: and summarizing

in every MMO game PVE activity focuses around the so called "trade hubs" of the factions (in EVE - in example -  they are Jita, Amarr, Dodixie and the Minmatar one whose name I do not remember)

Edited by victor
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On 2018-04-17 at 12:49 PM, Capt Trashal Early said:

Message should read.

 

You are leaving the safe zone. If attacked you will no longer be able to call in local reinforcements. Leave at your own risk. 

Well that might scare People off from leaving the safezone ...

Better to inform that indeed danger might lie ahed bit also adventure and great things to experience and discover.

Edited by Niagara
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40 minutes ago, rediii said:

Flipping a old 4th rate port takes 3 missions with 10 1sts = around 60 min pve

Old 1st rate ports take way too much time tho

If you include the fact you have to get to enemy's port, get repaired a few times in your port (if you don't have abundance of repairs in the area), and you have 8 players, it's a nightmare. We started the grind by sailing out at 21:00, we finished at 1am - 4 hours

Instead, enemy should get a note you're planning to do hostility once you take a mission. He should be able to respond that he's defending. If he doesn't in 30-45 minutes, you should be able to flip a port in 15 minutes - with a total of approx. 60 minutes invested, including average of 15 minute of sailing. If he does, enemy could get more time to sail to area.

A result would be that you invest a bit of time and you know if you're going to have PvP. If not, you're not forced to do a lot of PvE.

There are ways to design such mechanism so that it's secure from exploits and has a basic level of immersion.

Edited by vazco
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