Studding Sails

[Galileus]

A lot of this game will be based on decisions from threads like this one.

 

Nope. A lot of this game will be based on decisions by the devs, with pools like that helping to visualize the opinion of the vocal part of the community. Nothing less, nothing more.

[AKPyrate]

I love stuns'ls, but it would just add a lot more clutter while trying to aim, should carry away in most of the wind conditions we see in game, and inhibit maneuvering considerably.  Besides, you can't tack with stuns'ls set, and even maneuvering the yards must be done with great care.  They were much more of a passage through the doldrums sail, and during this era weren't used to maintain absolute peak speed like the clipper ships of the mid-19th Century.  Ultimately, this is a fine detail that should not be a high priority right now.  Heck, there's a lot of other work to do, so this shouldn't be a priority at all.  I'd much rather see the current sails get an overhaul so that shrouds don't poke through when close hauled or the sail is backed, a feature to back heads'ls/depower stays'ls, or better damage to rigging such as yards/gaffs or temporarily loosing braces for a yard.  So, while it might be nice to improve passage time in the open world (at a fairly high cost for the extra rigging-which is why many merchant ships not only didn't carry stuns'ls, but even got rid of the t'gallant sails), it's not something that needs to be worked on anytime soon.

[TommyShelby]

I'm sorry but all this "Useless" "We have more important stuff to be implemented" is really not arguments. It's just your personal opinion... 
- Right, we don't have calm winds ingame atm. So what? We can't discuss this topic as common folk? 

I'm sure calm winds will be implemented at some point and i think studding sails should be implemented at that point (Personal opinion). 

Why do i think such? Because it's a gameplay feature which adds depth, variety, detail, (Realism?) and options/choices to the game. Imagine a battle in calm winds, you can choose to spend, say 60-120 seconds on putting up "Studding sails" and gain a small "speed boost" so to say. - Disadvantage being you can't tack properly forexample. 

I don't think anyone said that it should be implemented right away, i believe the thread was merely made so as to start a discussion on the topic (And to see if it might be implemented some time in the future, when more important stuff have been added already) 

So instead of thinking "Hmm, what a useless feature if it was implemented right now" think of how it could be implemented in the future, a long with all the other features to be implemented. 
Cheers.

Tommy Shelby.

Edited April 7, 2015 by TommyShelby

[Jack Freedom]

Nope. A lot of this game will be based on decisions by the devs, with pools like that helping to visualize the opinion of the vocal part of the community. Nothing less, nothing more.

 

I take it you voted against adding studded sails and now you're displeased.

[Galileus]

I take it you voted against adding studded sails and now you're displeased.

 

Ah. Personal attack. Accusing me of hidden agenda to try and neglect my argumentation. Always popular, this one. Unfortunately, kind Sir, this is way too low a league to try on me.

 

Please refrain from doing it again, especially if you have no idea if I am indeed for or against the studded sails as the topic is.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Galileus

[Yankee jack]

I believe the Devs got a bit on their minds of late...........

 

This stuff may come? But all in good time. 

Let's get OW implemented first.

[Jack Freedom]

I believe the Devs got a bit on their minds of late...........

 

This stuff may come? But all in good time. 

Let's get OW implemented first.

 

Like Tommy Shelbys post said, Just because we want this feature doesn't mean we want it NOW. It's worthy of discussion at the least.

[Cdr.ODon]

With the introduction of the open world battles and particularly the ability to escape a battle instance (run away), I believe the introduction of studding sails would be more relevant.

 

  Studding sails could be used to significantly increase your speed (although requiring much manpower to operate) when one is trying to escape a battle, or chasing/closing in on an enemy.

 

 I think studding sails should be implemented as a purchasable module for your vessels. Operating studding sails should also divert any crew from gunnery, survival etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any thoughts?

[akd]

Studding sails didn't really increase speed.  They allowed you to maintain decent speed in lighter winds.   The wind is always blowing strong and constant in NA.

[Tryite]

In battle never used.

[maturin]

In battle never used.

Used in battle by John Paul Jones and by Nelson at Trafalgar.

[Hugh Latham]

As mentioned earlier, light airs sails. If you carry too much canvas for the strength of the wind you will have rigging and spar failures.

[Crankey]

So the only response from admin is they look ugly ?  Soooo nothing that isnt aesthetically pleasing is allowed in the game. Thats not really a reason and would actually prevent some ships even being modded as they were by comparison to others downright ugly.

 

I would advocate having studding sails on appropriate ships when different wind strength and weather comes back into the battles and OW. Denying their use is like denying carronades "Because they are short and ugly".

 

There were several famous fleet 'chases' where all plain and all studding sails are set both by the persued and the persuers and when the light air winds failed, boats were put in the water to tow the ships.

 

I can think of no valid reason why they cannot be in game.  I can imagine there involves extra dev time to both model and interact with the ui and environment. I would like to think they are part of the project that must be completed in order to add varying wind strength into the game.

 

 

EDIT:  No-one is suggesting that studding sails take priority over anything else, merely that it is considered for inclusion with dev time alocated as they see fit. Differing wind strengths in game would open up the opportunity to utilise studding sails.

[Robert Danforth]

Can we at least get royals?

 

E: I think some ships have them and some don't. The Trincomalee does not, which seems odd.

[Wicked Mouse]

I for one would welcome the ship upgrade to add studding/stun sails when weather is really going to vary along with wind speed. It's a feature that is used from at least 1755, I'd imagine mainly on square-rigged ships of the line.

 

Chapter 23 of the textbook of seamanship makes mention of it.

 

[BK-KnightRider]

its funny you should bring up the victory - as for not having them up in battle, all British ships in the battle of Trafalgar used studding sails to close with the combined French/ Spanish line and no doubt the vic and others still had them up when engaged.

 

to prove this Google battle of Trafalgar and go to images. you will see more than one painting of the battle with ships still having them on whilst engaged.

 

The problem with using paintings as a reference is that painters did not always have an interest in historical accuracy, and sometimes they didn't know enough details to even try for high accuracy in their image.   I have seen more than few paintings of historical events with which I had sufficient knowledge to know for a fact that the painting was not accurate.

[DazednConfused]

Be that as it may, it is still fact that british ships cut the line with studding sails set.

[maturin]

John Paul Jones' sluggish Bonhomme Richard also fought Serapis with stunsails set.                                  

 

AFAIK topsail and topgallant stunsails don't add any serious complication to maneuvers, besides sailing close-hauled and tacking. A very few men per sail, I'd imagine. Lower stunsails, on the other hand, would make rapid maneuvers impossible, and couldn't be set anywhere near the wind.

[AKPyrate]

John Paul Jones' sluggish Bonhomme Richard also fought Serapis with stunsails set.                                  

 

AFAIK topsail and topgallant stunsails don't add any serious complication to maneuvers, besides sailing close-hauled and tacking. A very few men per sail, I'd imagine. Lower stunsails, on the other hand, would make rapid maneuvers impossible, and couldn't be set anywhere near the wind.

 

So, if you set stuns'ls, you'd be okay only sailing on a broad reach and possibly wearing (though that usually meant striking stuns'ls on one side and setting them on the other, as there's usually not much point to setting leeward stuns'ls due to the wind shadow of the rest of the sail plan.  Additionally, it does take a lot more coordination as there are many more lines involved and they are more finicky.  These sails are set 'flying' and are not nearly as easy to control as the majority of the standard sails.  Any damage to them would exacerbate the potential damage to the rest of the rig, as the extra booms could easily poke holes in the main stack of squares and possibly foul the braces as well.  Additionally, if we all are on the same page without them, then there's really no point to having stuns'ls except that some people kind of think it looks neat.  Additionally, it should be noted that sometimes more sails actually slows the ship.  I really wish this would happen in higher wind so we don't see people with full sails in a hurricane.

 

 

Be that as it may, it is still fact that british ships cut the line with studding sails set.

 

Many of the British ships did not, in fact.  For example, Tonnant had her stuns'ls torn away by enemy shot before cutting the line, Nelson ordered Neptune to take in her studdingsails and drop astern of Victory, and Temeraire cut her stuns'ls away as was stipulated in Nelson's tactical memorandum of October 9th.  

 

Ultimately, it just isn't necessary in this game, though I would be all for it if an over press of sail caused damage in this game.  That way, I could laugh as my opponents tore up their own rig for me on their way in to battle.

[Voi_Ta]

Not a bad idea but very low priority for me. There are more important things that need development time.

[maturin]

 

 

Ultimately, it just isn't necessary in this game, 

Not unless they want to make chase gameplay and/or races deeper.

[Jord]

Seems like a great addition to the larger ships. Mastering the wind speed and direction combined with controlling the sails is a huge part of what makes this game enjoyable so adding these would give extra bit of control and allow for better chase gameplay.

[Captain Obido]

Well in fact I love to use "improvised stuns'l and other similar stuff when sailing cups with my cutter in reallife. (At lake Konstanz, Germany. Mostly no considerable waves and often less then 2 bft or even 0-1). As those sails are no original part of the rigging, it's really risky to try it with more wind, even though it's just a small 2masted 10m Cutter.

I actually once saw my bowspriet splinter while experimenting with gennakers and a friend of mine got a loose yard coming down, piercing the boat like a giant spear. He luckily cleared the sails/rest of the riggin and left the yard in the hole to prevent heavy flooding. He manned his pump, trimed the ship to decrease flooding even more and ran for the port at full speed... met him 5min after his arrival in port. He really was a "bit" shocked, but all in all not one crewmember got hurt. They were really lucky!

So now what I want to say: I'd love to have Stuns'ls. But assuming I can just scale up my experience to larger dimensions, it should be only usable with light winds, at some risks, usable at special courses, add effects due to shifting trim of the sails (ships starts turning into the wind or leeward) and all in all hard to handle. As a result it would be something difficult to use, maybe hard to handle and with some risks if not used proper. Like that it would be something a skilled Captain would use to gain the upper hand on unskilled. (I have heard of captains sailing sotl before the wipe without being able to use manual sails and can't believe it.)

Edited January 23, 2016 by Captain Obido

[AKPyrate]

So now what I want to say: I'd love to have Stuns'ls. But assuming I can just scale up my experience to larger dimensions, it should be only usable with light winds, at some risks, usable at special courses, add effects due to shifting trim of the sails (ships starts turning into the wind or leeward) and all in all hard to handle. As a result it would be something difficult to use, maybe hard to handle and with some risks if not used proper. Like that it would be something a skilled Captain would use to gain the upper hand on unskilled. (I have heard of captains sailing sotl before the wipe without being able to use manual sails and can't believe it.)

 

I'd be all for them (though still a lower priority) if having too much canvas up would potentially damage the rig.  As it is, I get annoyed when people are sailing with full sail through squalls and full on storms.  But, it's how the mechanics of the game currently are, and thus I do it as well.  The only downside to having more sail is the heeling angle.  This can easily be managed by dousing headsails and adjusting yards just prior to shooting.  The speed and maneuverability more than make up for the heeling.  I don't want to see stuns'ls becoming the 'norm' for battles.  Sure, there are a handful of battles that they were used in, but the vast majority of battles were fought using plain sail or even reduced sail for conditions because that meant more people could man the guns while still managing the sails.  Not every captain believed that fancy maneuvering was the way to win a battle (and some of them were proven right).  Additionally, if they are just a 'new full sail', then people will still be trying to go close hauled with them set.  That said, if they could come up with a way to have rig damage for using too much sail in stronger winds, I'd be all for it.  I've suggested earlier that having the rigging/sails take damage if more than a 'recommended' sail amount was used (could be ship specific as well) in certain weather conditions would be a great way to do it.  Just losing 1-2% of your sails per minute if pressing on would add more judgement to the game.  If I'm trying to close the distance for carronades to do their dirty work, then I could temporarily take some sail damage in order to get in range before reducing sail.  If the enemy compounds that by firing at my rigging, then I might need to use a repair when I'm close in for battle.  It might also be nice if at a certain point of damage it were possible to lose a mast (maybe just an upper one at first) if you've got too much sail set.

 

Who knows, maybe this is beyond the scope of the game, though I'd love to see it personally.

[maturin]

It really shouldn't be hard to code a proportional speed boost for storms. Slow setting would provide the same speed as Full does in normal instances. And if you go above that, you have a chance of your topgallantmasts falling off every few minutes. Or the sails simply being blow oun. We already have the visuals for all of this. There just need to be some scripted safeguards and warnings added.