Fun PVP for everyone!

[vazco]

4 hours ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

I'd first need to grind up ships to 5 slots to be capable of doing that.

Oh please... A few days ago I had a fight where I won against 3 enemies on an inger with just 4 knowledge slots, no poods and cheap upgrades (and in a fight next day I got sunk). It's not about your ship, it's about enemy's mistakes. For some reason many people don't believe this, like you. 

4 hours ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

since pvp with 1 slot ship vs 5 slots is mostly suicide

I'm actually planning on leveling all my remaining ships on PvP only (like I did with last two) , cause it's more fun. 

 

BTW, you can load poods and spanish rig on any ship, it's the only advantage you need. 

Books and upgrades don't  provide you "I win" button, especially when an enemy has an advantage in br. 

[Capn Rocko]

6 hours ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

I'd first need to grind up ships to 5 slots to be capable of doing that. My 5 slots unlocked ships are mostly pb ships. Not the new meta ships. So I'd have to do a LOT of pve, since pvp with 1 slot ship vs 5 slots is mostly suicide. Plus grinding more PVE for epic chests would cost me a lot of extra PVE time + pve time of other players.

So do you have a couple of months untill I get to that point? Becasue the mechanics that let me succes fully do the kite/repair/kite trick require me to do a lot of grinding. Including ships that are 5/5.

Its best just to unlock slots through PvP, it goes by faster than you think 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

I'd first need to grind up ships to 5 slots to be capable of doing that. My 5 slots unlocked ships are mostly pb ships. Not the new meta ships. So I'd have to do a LOT of pve, since pvp with 1 slot ship vs 5 slots is mostly suicide. Plus grinding more PVE for epic chests would cost me a lot of extra PVE time + pve time of other players.

So do you have a couple of months untill I get to that point? Becasue the mechanics that let me succes fully do the kite/repair/kite trick require me to do a lot of grinding. Including ships that are 5/5.

The mindset of grind with PvE until you unlock all slots seems unfortunate.. It's so much faster and more enjoyable with PvP. When the LGV refit came out, I took it from 0 to 3 slots in a few hours of PvP (that's back when it was extremely expensive and rare). Recently I decided I liked the indefatigable, so I took it from 0 to 5 slots all through PvP. Both were mostly solo, a few trips with 1 or 2 others. 

I think the key is your mindset. If you think your enemy is better than you because of his slots and mods, you've already shot yourself in the foot. Gotta be confident in hunting and PvP, or you never get anywhere.

[admin]

2 minutes ago, Borch said:

Make it so that when you pick a PvP mission you automatically also get it's PvE version. For example raid the commerce around port A. Sink or capture 2000 BR enemy ships etc. This way even if there wont PvP availble, you will still have something to do and most importantly you will create content for other people. This one person could be a start for the PvP for which you encourage.

thats a good idea.. maybe you are right that patrol the area damage should not be depended on the pvp only damage, in this case if enemies are not there you can still feel progress

[Nelsons Barrel]

As long as you only smash seals you dont need any slots on any kind of ship. Speed is only needed for getting away from revengefleet and repair/mast mods are only needed in battle with somebody who knows what he does.

[vazco]

58 minutes ago, admin said:

thats a good idea.. maybe you are right that patrol the area damage should not be depended on the pvp only damage, in this case if enemies are not there you can still feel progress

You should be able to progress if noone fights you, however creating hostility-like missions won't work for a few reasons:

• once you're in a mission, you're much more vulnerable if someone joins in
• this way you encourage PvE, not PvP. People will probably find a way to get missions in areas where nobody is there

A better option would be to create an empty missions which everyone can join... It's still not perfect though.

A system would really work once it allows you to get 2-20 players in the same area to fight, and once it's clear to every participant that he will probably find someone at the location and that it's worth to sail there.

[Trino]

1 hour ago, admin said:

thats a good idea.. maybe you are right that patrol the area damage should not be depended on the pvp only damage, in this case if enemies are not there you can still feel progress

I'm really astonished! First PvP Marks for only done damage. now PvP Marks for PvE ...

The second is a little bit much in my opinion ...

Im repeating me: why bind it to a mission? Why not reward the noob in front of his capital for the heroic fighting and sinking against the ganking fleet? 

[Fenris]

17 hours ago, Liq said:

What prevents players from bringing lineship fleets to the area where others get their frigate missions? This idea here will work worse than pvp event

Pvp event was fix, players knew when it was, where it was. Now the pvp missions will be different for everyone and chance of actually meeting someone will be significantly lower

But im happy to test and get proven wrong

I don`t know.

The whole idea is based on one single question: "How to motivate people to sail out, do PVP, reward them appropriately , even if they lose?" So, doing damage on an enemy, and getting rewarded for it, might be a proper ignition.

As you know, most players rather sit in safezones and ports, and idolise their fancy boats, instead looking for action. That seem to be understandable, since many upgrades cost more than the ship... On the other hand, what purpose has each warship in this game if it`s not used by his owner? Why the hell players collect 20 ships, look at them all day long, or every time they log in, but rarely sail out and "shoot something" else than bots?

So, finding balance, between the loss and reward, could be the step in the right direction,although many others are needed too.But that would be another topic.

[Sea Fox]

These are great changes!

Wasn't a big fan of the PVP zones when they were here but I still went and I will go to the new ones. I am more excited about the hostility Mission changes which are going to turn this game inside out and in a fantastic way and a great New Direction!!!!

When will this be implemented? When is Christmas coming? 😀

[Hethwill]

We all get what we wished for. Maybe not what we expect  

 

[Sea Fox]

Still 10 Aggies 😔

[vazco]

2 hours ago, Borch said:

On first point, the same way you're more vulnerable when you enter PvP fight and someone joins in. No difference really.

The difference is that PvP fight closes after 2 minutes, this would have to stay open - like hostility.

 

2 hours ago, Borch said:

On second point, this will encourage sailing out of safe zone and not haveing the feel of lost time whenever you wont find PvP to finish your mission.

This feeling would be still there. In other section of the forum you can find people organizing PvP fights to flip ports, since they hate hostility mechanics. Putting PvE mission in order to give something to someone who wants PvP is a very bad patch for a problem. Instead, a system should guarantee that on the place of your mission someone will be there, or that you will get notified that probably noone will and you shouldn't bother.

 

2 hours ago, Borch said:

Also I expect more players in the game after release so those lone spots will be much harder to find that it is now.

In the current state the game is a leaking bucket, which leaks players. In order to make this game great, devs still need to handle just this one user story:

As a PvP player I want to be able to have a meaningful (and fun/epic/engaging) PvP action with my friends, within 30 minutes of logging into the game.

Once this is possible, all the rest will fall into place - as PvP action is really great already when it happens (which is rare now).

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, vazco said:

In the current state the game is a leaking bucket, which leaks players. In order to make this game great, devs still need to handle just this one user story:

As a PvP player I want to be able to have a meaningful (and fun/epic/engaging) PvP action with my friends, within 30 minutes of logging into the game.

Once this is possible, all the rest will fall into place - as PvP action is really great already when it happens (which is rare now).

You are so right about this. The biggest thing that draws me away from this game is just how much time I can put in with no results. There is nothing solid or sacred in PVP. No borders, no hotspots. No epic wars to speak of. It's almost all pirate like hunting that has bleed my enjoyment from this game.

As far as any new player knows, there is nothing going on in the world of NA. Take a look at the map, do you see any action? Nope.

[z4ys]

Yep i want to sink for a reason. A meaningless dot on the map is no reason to press sail and face 5 other players the same time.

[vazco]

21 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Yep i want to sink for a reason. A meaningless dot on the map is no reason to press sail and face 5 other players the same time.

On the other hand imagine if you could:

• launch PvP missions which if successful, would influence eg. enemy's port, and give you some of their profit, or some limited power over them - eg. open their port for some time (Cartagena, Copper, French sails ) 
• increase your PvP rank thanks to fighting in challenging PvP battles, and thanks to your high PvP rank:
  • have bragging rights to be one of the best in the game, being listed publicly (like PvP list)
  • get access to unique visual upgrades (stupid idea - red/grey/dark sails )
  • have unique icon on the forum
  • have somewhat increased difficulty level to increase a challenge for you, in the same time giving you a bonus if you succeed (eg. your enemies get smaller penalty to PvP marks for sinking you with larger BR advantage, but you get 20% more gold from PvP)

 

A gamification system is good if when you progress, you gain:

• public recognition (fame)
• unique  rewards which others don't have (eg. visuals or some small advantage)
• have control over others (eg. you're able to be a moderator, set some game mechanisms etc.)

Then you don't need hard rewards to motivate people - they act to get access to power, recognition and elite status.

Edited February 27, 2018 by vazco

[z4ys]

4 minutes ago, vazco said:

On the other hand imagine if you could:

• launch PvP missions which if successful, would influence eg. enemy's port, and give you some of their profit, or some limited power over them - eg. open their port
• increase your PvP rank thanks to fighting in challenging PvP battles, and thanks to your high PvP rank:
  • have bragging rights to be one of the best in the game, being listed publicly (like PvP list)
  • get access to unique visual upgrades (stupid idea - red/grey/dark sails )
  • have unique icon on the forum

 

A gamification system is good if when you progress, you gain:

• public recognition (fame)
• unique  rewards which others don't have (eg. visuals or some small advantage)
• have control over others (eg. you're able to be a moderator, set some game mechanisms etc.)

Then you don't need hard rewards to motivate people - they act to get access to power, recognition and elite status.

that would make to much sense and offer to much depth. we cant have that. its not simple enough ;-) Even a stupid captains log would be nice with some achivements.

xx battles yy won zz lost ii escaped

Edited February 27, 2018 by z4ys

[Farrago]

Ok, let's try this new idea. I'm afraid it's just going to provide a short term increase in opportunities for the PVP pros to find and kill the PVP amateurs. A few amateurs may become pros but for most, they'll realize they have little chance to win and there's no meaning in their death. So, no change.

I am personally skeptical that there is a solution for significantly increasing the percentage of players who want to PVP with the current game. It's going to be a bell curve always. We all fall somewhere on the scale of 0 desire (should probably be on the PVE server) to 10 (damn the torpedoes I'm going to fight no matter the odds). No fiddling with rewards, free ships, cheap ships, missions, durabilities, safe zones, mods or no mods, is going to change the curve in a significant way. If one thinks they are going to lose -- sink -- many/most will avoid the fight even if everything they lose will be replaced for free. We humans don't like to lose. We especially won't risk losing when we feel like the deck is stacked against us. We just won't play (PVP) in that instance. 

There are two situations in a game -- and in life -- where self sacrifice happens. 1) Loyalty to your buddy. I know I've stayed in or joined a battle when I could escape because a teammate was in trouble, even though I knew that it probably meant I would be sunk. 2) Loyalty to nation. We see this in port battles and screening but sinking the enemy at great sacrifice in OW means little to our nation or the war effort. We just don't have an economy that interdiction of trade and those who protect it, and killing those who raid it matters. Changes have been suggested in many threads that will increase content, and therefore increase the number of PVPers because game population increases but dealing with anything other than combat and sailing models doesn't seem to interest the Devs. So, this will always be a small population game. Small population will always equal small number of PVPers.

[vazco]

9 minutes ago, Borch said:

You can have exactly that in NA Legends and in fleet practice currently. In my opinion its more about giving players something to do while looking for PvP. If players dont understand that sometimes in this sandbox MMO they wont find PvP then ofc they will leave the game.

Legends completely miss "meaningful" (same as fleet practice) and almost completely miss "with my friends". In legends I can't influence the world, I can't get recognition, join elite group, or have any kind of influence or power. It misses all aspects of gamification, except for grind. 

I'm kind of bored with the argument that if I want pvp in a reasonable time, I should play legends. It's a game for completely different audience. 

If someone searches for pvp and you give him pve, it's as bad as the other way around. Imagine that you search for a girl to invite over to your place, and someone forces you to invite a guy instead. Some might like it, most will hate it

Just check other threads to see how people like pve to kill their time while waiting for pvp in hostility. 

[vazco]

1 hour ago, Borch said:

And nobody forces you to do PvE with missions. PvE aspect is only the side part of PvP mission. You do 5000k dmg in PvP and if you dont find any, you still can sink few AI's for the PvE reward so you wont feel like you lost time.

To translate to my analogy - if you don't find a girl to invite to your place, you can always spend some time with this handsome guy who works out next to you. At least you won't feel like you lost time.

Immersive is also meaningful. If missions are immersive and two or more people get missions that point them to the same location, it suddenly starts to be something better than a standard pick-a-boo from a freeport.

I guess I'll repeat again - things are meaningful to people if they give you some power over others, if they change the setting around you, if they allow you to get to to an elite club that others can't get to, or if you get some recognition for doing this. All of this can be archieved by a well designed missions.

Edited February 27, 2018 by vazco

[VonVolks]

On 26/02/2018 at 12:17 PM, Jon Snow lets go said:

Because then people can just damage alts and farm marks in some empty corner of the map while all PvP missions will probably direct people into the same area which will be busy.

Surely this can EASILY be detected and then insta banned from game?

Damaging the same player over and over ??? Very suspicious.....

[VonVolks]

On 26/02/2018 at 3:31 PM, Pada said:

Just want to say thanks that you still care about us OW PvP plebs. 

In the end all we want are nice and challenging random fights. Rewards come last.

Exactyl! well said!

[Knobby]

On 2/26/2018 at 11:32 PM, Cornelis Tromp said:

I'd first need to grind up ships to 5 slots to be capable of doing that. My 5 slots unlocked ships are mostly pb ships. Not the new meta ships. So I'd have to do a LOT of pve, since pvp with 1 slot ship vs 5 slots is mostly suicide. Plus grinding more PVE for epic chests would cost me a lot of extra PVE time + pve time of other players.

So do you have a couple of months untill I get to that point? Becasue the mechanics that let me succes fully do the kite/repair/kite trick require me to do a lot of grinding. Including ships that are 5/5.

Always more excuses why you don't pvp...

So this whole mechanism you are saying is OP meta, you have never actually done it... How then do you know how its done?  You're Dunning-Kruger-ing in your reasoning. You never pvp cus you perceive some unfairness in gear advantage, while for a large part ppl are beating you because they spent a lot of time doing pvp, including being sank in pvp, and get good at it. And are always playing together and work like a team, capitalize on enemy mistakes, recognize their own mistakes and correct them etc.

[Kloothommel]

Just now, Knobby said:

Always more excuses why you don't pvp...

So this whole mechanism you are saying is OP meta, you have never actually done it... How then do you know how its done?  You're Dunning-Kruger-ing in your reasoning. You never pvp cus you perceive some unfairness in gear advantage, while for a large part ppl are beating you because they spent a lot of time doing pvp, including being sank in pvp, and get good at it. And are always playing together and work like a team, capitalize on enemy mistakes, recognize their own mistakes and correct them etc.

Tried to pvp yesterday. Was ganked. much fun. Back to trading.

[Kloothommel]

Just now, jonnysweden said:

Getting ganked IS pvp. 
Why did not you kite and repair, kite and repair and use OP mod stacking to win 1v7?

Nope. My ship was too slow. Was an old teak/white oak hermoine.

 

[Anne Wildcat]

5 minutes ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

Nope. My ship was too slow. Was an old teak/white oak hermoine.

 

I'm probably wrong, but you may be sailing too close to ports. If in enemy waters in a battle-built ship, stay away from coasts, hunt farther out.