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I don't know if you guys noticed it but there seems to be something wrong with the crew hitboxes on the Constitution. It looses crew much faster then any other ship in the game. You can set a Connie in crew shock with a bowrake pretty easy. Can you please take a look into this?

And after 2 years the model really needs an update.

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Connie is a 2 decker, a relatively big 2 decker, and less decks you have, more brutal the current damage model is.  Not sure if this is about Connie to be honest, but could be, or could it be that...

Special rules for Connie, so that the insanely broken crew damage can stay in the game?

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Connie is not a two decker. She does neither have two fully armed decks (gap between forecastle an quarterdeck in her armement) nor does she have a "roof" upon her weatherdeck guns - hence the name weatherdeck. I am not sure if you wanted to use that terminology anyway but at least in terms of technology - what I say is right ^^

If you think about it: more guns on the weatherdecks means more men behind lesser armor. I am not sure how thick the bulwarks of the consti are. An educated guess would be 30 cm and more. thats nothing compared to the gundeck's 60cm+

In addition the Constitution is a very thin vessel that means lesser room to spread the crew. When you rake her from either side (front/aft) you will have more hitboxes in the way than on a wider ship.

That said I am not saying there cant be a problem. But I gave a few explanations for why she is more prone to crew dmge than maybe another vessel of same (crew-) size

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It has a gun deck and a weather deck -> 2 decks?

The crew damage model has a pool of crew to be killed per deck, if I have understood correctly.  So you have 2 decks, and the crew is divided between these. (more or less, if I have understood correctly from what devs say).  So ->  450/2 = 225 crew per deck

3 deckers, (Including that weather deck).  450/3 = 150 crew per deck.

Then they have set a magic number, how many crew members you can kill etc.  If I have understood this correctly, devs can probably fix me.

So less decks -> More casualties.

 

1 deckers (Yes, the weather deck):

These are extremely vulnerable for grape damage.  That is why me and some other people have been repeating that grapes are OP atm. Even vs. 2 deckers the grapes are deadly.

 

But forum is full of people who simply love this insane crew damage.  So it can be that I am wrong.  For me the combat sucks now more than ever before.

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The crew is distributed between the stations you send them to.

For example: you F5 one broadside and fill your other side 100% with crew. that means you will have massive casualties if you get sternraked and aimed at your manned side. A long 24pd gun will require 9 men as full crew. 9*15=135 on the main gundeck per side. And a 12pd long weatherdeck is: 12*7=84 men.

source -> http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=Weapons#Medium_Guns

I cannot tell you where the men go when you hit sail. I assume somewhere on the decks.. Dunno where exactly.

But when you know your enemy is making ready for boarding (hit "8") you should aim at their weatherdecks. the men will be gently along the sides and provide good targets for you ;)

 

twodeckers are ships which feature two fully armed gundecks. consti as said before does not have a continuous weatherdeck gundeck. our 4th rate SoLs are twodeckers. the bellona is, the buc and pavel are. (even tho pavel can have 4 decks ingame she is not a threedecker)

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2 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

It has a gun deck and a weather deck -> 2 decks?

The crew damage model has a pool of crew to be killed per deck, if I have understood correctly.  So you have 2 decks, and the crew is divided between these. (more or less, if I have understood correctly from what devs say).  So ->  450/2 = 225 crew per deck

3 deckers, (Including that weather deck).  450/3 = 150 crew per deck.

Then they have set a magic number, how many crew members you can kill etc.  If I have understood this correctly, devs can probably fix me.

So less decks -> More casualties.

 

1 deckers (Yes, the weather deck):

These are extremely vulnerable for grape damage.  That is why me and some other people have been repeating that grapes are OP atm. Even vs. 2 deckers the grapes are deadly.

 

But forum is full of people who simply love this insane crew damage.  So it can be that I am wrong.  For me the combat sucks now more than ever before.

 

Jumping off of BungeeLemming's post, Constitution is a frigate, which by definition have a single gun deck, with the remaining guns on an armed quarterdeck and forecastle. Because she has deck connecting those two, instead of the usual gangways, she is called a spar-decked frigate (with the exposed deck properly called a spar deck because it's a convenient place to lash spare spars). Later American frigates like the Brandywine, which were built on improved lines of Constitution, armed the waist in the center of the ship, which is unarmed in Constitution, giving them two full decks of guns but they were still counted as only having one "gun deck". Constitution herself had that armed for a while too, but it strained the hull and those guns were removed. The aforementioned Brandywine class were a foot wider (a further six inches wider than the interim Guerriere class from the War of 1812) and could support the weight of two full decks of 32-pdrs and 8" shell guns.

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I can only say that 1 decker, as I calculate the decks.  Those lose all crew extremely fast if you grape the deck.  Like insanely fast.  Someone could ask that what is the reason for the ship in combat, as it is purely about crew.  I would say the game mechanisms are broken because of this.  I know the devs don't think that way, but honestly, this simply sucks.  We/I also wrote about this months ago already.

Also hitting the deck with grapes, you cannot really defend against that, so graping is easy mode.  You cannot angle to protect your ships etc.  You will be hit if the other guy knows how to aim grapes.

The devs also said at some point that crew is divided per deck.  I have no idea exactly where the crew is and when, and do not know if following F5 or sails is as said.  The devs can confirm how the crew damage is caused?

...

I understand Connie as a 2 decker.  It may not be the right way to say it irl, and I do not really care about that.  I have understood that the crew is divided between these 2 decks in game -> 2 decker.

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5 minutes ago, Talos said:

 

Jumping off of BungeeLemming's post, Constitution is a frigate, which by definition have a single gun deck, with the remaining guns on an armed quarterdeck and forecastle. Because she has deck connecting those two, instead of the usual gangways, she is called a spar-decked frigate (with the exposed deck properly called a spar deck because it's a convenient place to lash spare spars). Later American frigates like the Brandywine, which were built on improved lines of Constitution, armed the waist in the center of the ship, which is unarmed in Constitution, giving them two full decks of guns but they were still counted as only having one "gun deck". Constitution herself had that armed for a while too, but it strained the hull and those guns were removed. The aforementioned Brandywine class were a foot wider (a further six inches wider than the interim Guerriere class from the War of 1812) and could support the weight of two full decks of 32-pdrs and 8" shell guns.

Actually, as built the Consitution sailed with a mixed battery of 14x 12pdr and 16x 18pdr guns, later replaced by a full battery of 32x 32lb carronades, before being reduced to 16-20x 32lb carronades during the period just before her victories over the RN frigates in the war of 1812.

So she was truly a spardecked frigate.

 

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11 minutes ago, Lieste said:

Actually, as built the Consitution sailed with a mixed battery of 14x 12pdr and 16x 18pdr guns, later replaced by a full battery of 32x 32lb carronades, before being reduced to 16-20x 32lb carronades during the period just before her victories over the RN frigates in the war of 1812.

So she was truly a spardecked frigate.

 

Yes, but the 32x 32-pdr carronades on her upper works really strained her hull and she couldn't carry it, that's why they were stripped off. Certainly a spar deck, as that's the way the upper deck is built, not how it's armed. She was never a true "double-banked frigate" like her follow-ons.

Edited by Talos
Adding a bit

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2 hours ago, BungeeLemming said:

The crew is distributed between the stations you send them to.

For example: you F5 one broadside and fill your other side 100% with crew. that means you will have massive casualties if you get sternraked and aimed at your manned side.

Not sure this is the case.  For example, it was originally planned / assumed that boarding mode would send most of the crew to the open decks, but turns out this is not the case.  When you switch to boarding mode, crew remain distributed normally across all hitboxes (despite reduction in men on guns), but "armor" is ignored for penetration purposes so that the hitboxes are easier to connect with.

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58 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Someone could ask that what is the reason for the ship in combat, as it is purely about crew.

The purpose of a warship is to carry a battery of guns.  The purpose of a battery of guns is ultimately to kill or incapacitate enemy personnel.

Do you really think that naval combat consisted of ships firing at eachother until their "hitpoints" reached "zero"?

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Just now, akd said:

The purpose of a warship is to carry a battery of guns.  The purpose of a battery of guns is ultimately to kill or incapacitate enemy personnel.

Do you really think that naval combat consisted of ships firing at eachother until their "hitpoints" reached "zero"?

So you say that ship design had no reason at all?  I do not know if I should believe you or not.  So which one of us misunderstood?

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1 hour ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

So you say that ship design had no reason at all?  I do not know if I should believe you or not.  So which one of us misunderstood?

Please don't start this again. If you still think crew kills are OP then go to the splinter damage topic. I personally think we hit the sweet spot in crew damage through splinter and rakes. It just feels unfair to me that you can set a Connie in crew shock shooting the bow from 200m away and every other ship you only kill 10 - 20 guys at best.

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1 minute ago, Pada said:

Please don't start this again. If you still think crew kills are OP then go to the splinter damage topic. I personally think we hit the sweet spot in crew damage through splinter and rakes. It just feels unfair to me that you can set a Connie in crew shock shooting the bow from 200m away and every other ship you only kill 10 - 20 guys at best.

I said in that other topic that we can fix the splinter damage, or we can fix and balance the rest.  So, lets start from fixing Connie then.

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@adminwhat is the reason the connie ingame can equip 42pd carronades on the weatherdeck? i've searched abit over the internet and checked threedecks.org, but from what i've found it used 32pd carronades in the years after it had longs on it, allthough! from what i've found it did equip 18pd longs on the spardeck in its first setup.

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38 minutes ago, Wyy said:

@adminwhat is the reason the connie ingame can equip 42pd carronades on the weatherdeck? i've searched abit over the internet and checked threedecks.org, but from what i've found it used 32pd carronades in the years after it had longs on it, allthough! from what i've found it did equip 18pd longs on the spardeck in its first setup.

We explained this in the other Constitution thread:

On 9/9/2018 at 3:18 PM, Capt Aerobane said:

Most frigates in game can equip inaccurate or fantasy carronade loadouts, so I suspect it's an across the board gameplay decision. In fact the Constitution is one of the more reasonable as it can only mount carronades on the upper deck.

 

On 9/10/2018 at 5:01 AM, Lieste said:

Well, both the United States and President had 42 lb Carronades on the spar deck. Constitution started with a mixed battery of 12 and 18lb guns, before settling on a lighter battery of 32lb Carronades.

As 2/3 of the class carried this slightly heavier Carronade it isn't unreasonable to allow it, even if the Constitution herself was considered incapable of doing so.

 

On 9/10/2018 at 5:44 AM, Hethwill the Harmless said:

So, despite the "ship name in game" being Constitution, by usage of all types of alterations we can equip on the ships we can effectively "model" any ship of the class, not specifically the Constitution all the time.

 

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Are you sure that is Constitution, and not something like Wabash, Colorado or Virginia? I wonder whether the vertical mark in the mid-ships area might be a stack for a steam frigate...

I not saying it isn't - just that it has some features or photographic artefacts which look out of place.

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