Guest Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Too much to learn....brain cramp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubbyZebra Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 (edited) 55 minutes ago, maturin said: That's not how leeway works. Why would you ever need to tap anything? If you want to sail at 80 degrees, you aim at 75 degrees. It's that simple. Look, I understand how leeway works, thanks anyway. The implementation of "leeway" has lead to several handling changes. Forgive me for using the term as it is used in the patch notes. What you completely miss is you can't steer 75 degrees to hold 80 without tapping the rudder keys repeatedly. 34 minutes ago, Odol said: Or trim your sails so you dont have much leeway..... there is always that option. A ship, sailing upwind, will tend to "fall off" because of the lateral force on the headsails. This is often countered by steering slightly back into the wind, to hold the bow on a constant bearing. (since you can't really trim the sails to counter this while still maintaining headway). We cannot do this, however, because the rudder control is either neutral or full over. We can lock it full over, but anything in between requires constantly tapping the rudder keys. Edited December 28, 2017 by BPHick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphic Radiance Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, admin said: lose ship - lose paint they act as permanent upgrade. But due to sheer volume of accounts (120k) we might never run out. People will sell them or can be captured with them is there any living source for these paints? PvE events, Fleets, PvP drops? Or we will expect never returning people to sell them to public? 600/120000 , I don't know what you have in store for us, but how do you want 600 to become at least 2000? Any particular strategy, just curious. Edited December 28, 2017 by Seraphic Radiance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim McSauce Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Papa bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 1 hour ago, BPHick said: What you completely miss is you can't steer 75 degrees to hold 80 without tapping the rudder keys repeatedly. Why not? I see no problem and no difference from how it is in reality? If you make 10 degrees of leeway and need to hit a mark 10 miles distant, you can do some basic trigonometry and find the right course. Quote A ship, sailing upwind, will tend to "fall off" because of the lateral force on the headsails. This is often countered by steering slightly back into the wind, to hold the bow on a constant bearing. (since you can't really trim the sails to counter this while still maintaining headway). We cannot do this, however, because the rudder control is either neutral or full over. We can lock it full over, but anything in between requires constantly tapping the rudder keys. Most real ships in proper trim are 'ardent' and carry weather helm. Being slack and wanting to fall off is an undesirable trait, and such lee helm is ideally counteracted by the spanker. If you need to sail in a straight line in this game, you use autoskipper. It's only when you are trying to hold position using your yards that this aspect of rudder control becomes an issue. I find that full left/right rudder is just fine for controlling rotation at low speeds, even if you can't ever find equilibrium. Real ships also struggle to maintain perfect control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urchin Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said: So yah bring back paint chest please. To many bland wood color ships out there that look the same. Ok I made one and put paint on it..... As long as the added paints are historically accurate, last thing the game needs is ships with paint schemes that look as if they belong to JG 1 flying circus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destraex Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 This all sounds amazing. Will this model be applied to naval action legends as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Texas Sir Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, William Wade said: As long as the added paints are historically accurate, last thing the game needs is ships with paint schemes that look as if they belong to JG 1 flying circus. Have you seen the paints we had? They where very much historical or close to it. There is a reason that they won't players do there own paints lol Edited December 28, 2017 by Sir Texas Sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodgi Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 15 minutes ago, Destraex said: This all sounds amazing. Will this model be applied to naval action legends as well? Yes. Soon but don't know exactly when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 11 hours ago, admin said: Sailing model 2018 New sailing model has been applied to 6th rates and unrated vessels (some ships could become too good but it will be tuned) I just tested a trader's snow and the rudder effectiveness is huge. I can turn FAST even with no yard use and only 3 kts of speed. Can't remember if it was always like this, but I definitely don't remember NA:Legends brigs being like this. Ship displacements finalized and ship colliders (game development term) tuned. Do you have an updated copy of this spreadsheet?: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vpd0gIGgJNqaRYqAppB3IbX_TX8zNhx-nVY1jq72QFA/edit#gid=0 Yards have been overhauled. Force is now being applied to the position of the masts This is cool. Ships now finish a tack by being pushed downwind under the backed foresails. I no longer feel any need to use the rudder at this stage. Leeway Staysails now provide sideforce Square sails now provide sideforce Very good, but the ships' hulls and masts should also provide sideforce. A dismasted hulk should drift slowly. A ship that has surrendered and furled sails should drift a bit faster. Sideforce depends on ships form and sail power I haven't found a good way to estimate the leeway angles, except using Home camera and looking at the wakes. It's a very crude method. Side and yard side force now depends on speed (due to keel resistance rising at speed) Leeway angles don't seem to change very much depending on point of sail or speed of the ship. At a broad reach, there should be almost no leeway; it needs to depend on point of sail. And if I am sailing close-hauled and press T, the leeway angle doesn't seem to increase much. The higher the speed the more keel resistance you will encounter. Yards will not be as efficient on maximum speed. Heel Sail/Yard power now provides heel Heel depends on hull form and Sail power Fast ships (especially ships that has fastest speed beam reached) will heel more. This opens new options in combat (for example conserving broadsides to focus on waterline) Tested with LGV and heel seems pretty much the same as it always was. Not a fast ship, though. Turn inertia and acceleration added both to rudder and side force Bigger ships will take longer time to reach maximum turn rate As a results you might need to plan maneuvers a little bit in advance and plan to change direction a little bit earlier, especially in heavy vessels Nimbler ships will reach maximum turn rates faster Turning decel doesn't seem to interfere with sterncamping maneuvers very much. Anyone try this yet? Autoskipper no longer balances ships when you receive damage or lose masts. Turn rates (especially for frigates) will probably require another pass of optimization for historical feel and gameplay. But we are very happy how all the changes turn out in internal testing. I did a lot of testing with LGV and everything seems very natural at the frigate level. Sideforce and drifting behavior is beautiful and elegant. Snow seems a bit too hyper, in terms of turning. She does donuts like a skidding car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwood Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 More content needed, besides shooting ships, crafting ships and dull missions(which is again shooting ships). Desperately needed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLoneWolf Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 The new sailing mechanics with leeway are completely screwed up when stuck in shallows. Ai ends up beached right away. You go from -1 to +1 know in split section and back and forth with no adjustment to heading. I get more sail force from leeway than from sails. When beached, leeway is so strong you cannot even tack into wind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesore Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Yes, getting stuck in shallows is game over if the wind comes from the wrong side. The leeward/drift-effect seems more pronounced at low speeds (as it should be i think). Made a few manouvres i couldn't do before, now just have to find a use for them ;-) I had a weird thing happening when in aiming-view (inputs didn't work, everything slowed down and then jumped suddenly ahead (by a shiplength!), when tacking through the wind), it happened twice, had to get out of aimingview for things to go at a normal speed again (might be a coincidence?). Probably lag of some kind? (never happened to me before) A shot out rudder now holds it's position (maybe i missed this before? It is more visible now, or has more impact), as in if you were turning left and you lose your rudder, it gets stuck in that position and the ship continues it turn to the left until repaired. That was nice. I was sailing a Wapen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsGoFluckYourselves Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 (edited) Kindly Delete This Account Edited July 31, 2020 by KindlyDeleteThisAccount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Privateer-- Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 12 hours ago, admin said: Closed haul performance slightly increased for Wappen Ingermanland This seems to have come at the expense of the Ingermanland's down wind performance. I used to hit the top speed in the Ingermanland at about 1 notch from down wind and now I reach the top speed around 2+ notches from down wind. This moves the sailing profile much closer to that of the Wasa and other common pvp ships. The unique down wind performance of the Ingermanland was what made it a viable solo pvp ship as it could usually escape an overwhelming force by running down wind. In order to keep some diversity in OW pvp ships I think the Ingermanland's sailing profile should be adjusted such that the downwind performance is restored to how it was before patch 14 part 3, otherwise we may as well all be using Wasas. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted December 28, 2017 Author Share Posted December 28, 2017 26 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said: This seems to have come at the expense of the Ingermanland's down wind performance. I used to hit the top speed in the Ingermanland at about 1 notch from down wind and now I reach the top speed around 2+ notches from down wind. This moves the sailing profile much closer to that of the Wasa and other common pvp ships. The unique down wind performance of the Ingermanland was what made it a viable solo pvp ship as it could usually escape an overwhelming force by running down wind. In order to keep some diversity in OW pvp ships I think the Ingermanland's sailing profile should be adjusted such that the downwind performance is restored to how it was before patch 14 part 3, otherwise we may as well all be using Wasas. impossible are you sure you dont have mods reducing downwind speed? inger profile was only tuned at 45 degrees to wind (close hauled). Downwind curves should have remained Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarlath Morrow Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Hmm, is it possible that leeway is affecting the reported speed? Although I would suspect leeway would add to reported speed in this situation, not detract (since the ship is being carried farther downwind). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Privateer-- Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, admin said: impossible are you sure you dont have mods reducing downwind speed? I have the treaties on square sails and studding sails, but I also had those on pre-patch. Here is pre-patch screenshot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 1 hour ago, TheLoneWolf said: The new sailing mechanics with leeway are completely screwed up when stuck in shallows. Ai ends up beached right away. You go from -1 to +1 know in split section and back and forth with no adjustment to heading. I get more sail force from leeway than from sails. When beached, leeway is so strong you cannot even tack into wind. Yeah, the knotmeter has some weird quirks now. It tends to jump from +2kts to -2kts when tacking, with no transition period. I think this is due to the fact that the hull is moving sideways, and so the vectors get all weird. Not sure what the issue is with sailing 'while beached,' though. You shouldn't run aground in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLoneWolf Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, maturin said: Yeah, the knotmeter has some weird quirks now. It tends to jump from +2kts to -2kts when tacking, with no transition period. I think this is due to the fact that the hull is moving sideways, and so the vectors get all weird. Hmm maybe they should add rip currents on beaches The beaches act as magnets for ai and if you get close you too are pulled in by these new "black holes"... Edited December 28, 2017 by TheLoneWolf 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vazco Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Those changes sound great, can't wait to test them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted December 28, 2017 Author Share Posted December 28, 2017 17 minutes ago, maturin said: Yeah, the knotmeter has some weird quirks now. It tends to jump from +2kts to -2kts when tacking, with no transition period. I think this is due to the fact that the hull is moving sideways, and so the vectors get all weird. Not sure what the issue is with sailing 'while beached,' though. You shouldn't run aground in the first place. speedometer does not know if it is sideforce or not so if your forward speed changes from -0.1 to +0.1 but you also have side force of 2 at the same time speedometer will show a change of -2.1 to 2.1 because the center mass moves both forward and to the side (0.2 forwards and 2 to the side) so its not weird, it shows true speed of the center mass compared to its old position. Of course proper way is to then have 2 speedometers like on planes. But honestly the speed indicator should be removed for realism (real age of sail captains could only judge speed approximately and rely on visual clues, like rope with knots) ps beached is a realistic but brutal outcome of leeway. Some captains will see it sooner than later. If you have a strong leeway ship and wind blows towards land in instance - you are a goner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesore Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, maturin said: Not sure what the issue is with sailing 'while beached,' though. You shouldn't run aground in the first place. True, but there is no real visual cue, i got stuck with a lot of water still under the keel, was going parrallel to the land, an inlet in front of the ship (no land, open deeper water, lost all control (the ship just remained in irons, no movement left or right or forward or backward, manual sails did nothing to change position (100% sails, or minimum amount, powered or not, adding rudderinput), all the ship did was 'jumping' up and down occasionally (as if it were trying). I have had moments were there is no input but the ship kept turning (no rudderdamage or anything), on manual sails. At first I thought it must be the leewardeffect, but when correcting afterwards the ship would hold its course far better (also on manual again). It felt like the new effect sometimes has a powersurge or something (I was experiencing some lag (i think), so perhaps it's not an issue)). The speedchanges are a bit strange yes, I also consider that an effect of the sidewaysdrift. It is a bit annoying as you have to try to time your rudderchanges when tacking. Inertia is also a lot of a bigger factor it seems (like admin said, start/stop manouvres earlier to compensate, or more time needed to line up your broadside). Coming out of a turn, putting your rudder to neutral has perhaps a bit too much delay before the ship starts sailing straight (I get it that the other way around, (going into a turn, takes longer), but coming out of a turn, it feels like it should be more 'responsive') Edited December 28, 2017 by Eyesore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Quote speedometer does not know if it is sideforce or not Oh, so 2 kts is the actual speed of our drift. I assumed that the speedometer only worked in the Y axis. Restricting it to that axis would eliminate the confusion, but current system is probably fine. By the way, the last remaining tweak is to make ships with no sails also drift downwind at around 1 knot. Then everything will be complete and glorious. Currently I can press T and swivel my yards to eliminate drift entirely. But the hull and masts themselves have enormous surface area, the size of a modern yacht's sail, or more. Quote True, but there is no real visual cue, i got stuck with a lot of water still under the keel, was going parrallel to the land, an inlet in front of the ship (no land, open deeper water, lost all control (the ship just remained in irons, no movement left or right or forward or backward, manual sails did nothing to change position (100% sails, or minimum amount, powered or not, adding rudderinput), all the ship did was 'jumping' up and down occasionally (as if it were trying). I have had moments were there is no input but the ship kept turning (no rudderdamage or anything), on manual sails. At first I thought it must be the leewardeffect, but when correcting afterwards the ship would hold its course far better (also on manual again). It felt like the new effect sometimes has a powersurge or something (I was experiencing some lag (i think), so perhaps it's not an issue)). Harsh, it's true. But sailing close to land should be the scariest thing a captain can experience. If you run aground, you lose the battle. Luckily you can still exit the instance if your friends save you. Quote It is a bit annoying as you have to try to time your rudderchanges when tacking. It seems to me that the rudder is not really necessary anymore, in the final stage of tacking. Which is great. IRL you don't want to rely on it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesore Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, maturin said: Harsh, it's true. But sailing close to land should be the scariest thing a captain can experience. If you run aground, you lose the battle. Luckily you can still exit the instance if your friends save you. Yes, it is, the goal is to get your opponent to get stuck on it ;-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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