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Almost every player wants to be known as a shipwright, who’s ‘skills’ are sought after for creating tailored vessels, or who has the largest New Ship Emporium. To this end, there is an entire system for crafting ships and upgrades, with an armada of resources and commodities to fuel this activity. Resources are made difficult to access or obtain, buildings artificially restricted, labour times tweaked and balanced, all to add a throttle to the market, making the process feel cumbersome and unworthwhile.

Instead, perhaps ships should just be a thing that can be bought or ordered, from large cities. Large cities however, are created by the players regularly supplying the city with resources, causing growth (and cities no longer supplied with a minimum, shrink in size). Of course, there would still be a market for selling commodities, but by and large their actual usefulness to a player, outside the city growth mechanic, would be minimal. The greater a nations population, the greater the requirement needed to supply cities to grow, giving another tool to help mitigate any population imbalance.

This might then make larger cities become juicy targets to the RvR element, cargo ships would become more numerous, or cities would idle along at a small size, offering commensurate ships and shipbuilding facilities.

 

To go one step further, the game might be subdivided into matches. A match lasts a set amount of time, say 6 months, culminating in an endgame. Fortunes and reputations are made, winners are announced, and then the game is reset, with nothing remaining, except perhaps a Title to be held during the next match, earnt from the previous match (Dread Pirate, Lord of the Admiralty, Bursar of the West Indies, etc etc).

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3 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Interesting suggestion and interesting reply.

I'd suggest no safety zones involved and let trade wars come back then. Want to protect your trade ? Sail out and pvp the raiders out.

Yes

Put the availability of ships into the realm of the RvR element (bigger city = bigger ships to be purchased/ordered). Cities then always demand goods, making it easier to make currency, and replace losses.

So then players are not so afraid of losing their ship, trading ships will be needed (or a nation will fall behind in the tech race), and with the Match mechanic, new players will have a chance to start on the same line as veterans when the server resets for the next match.

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18 hours ago, Coaster said:

Yes

Put the availability of ships into the realm of the RvR element (bigger city = bigger ships to be purchased/ordered). Cities then always demand goods, making it easier to make currency, and replace losses.

So then players are not so afraid of losing their ship, trading ships will be needed (or a nation will fall behind in the tech race), and with the Match mechanic, new players will have a chance to start on the same line as veterans when the server resets for the next match.

What about the players who like to trade and to build ??? Sorry, but if u just want the shooting part in the game, maybe NAL is the better game for u.

Lost my teak / wo victory 2 days ago, yesterday i build a new one, without any problems (i dont have access to a wo port). Get good build ships is not the Problem, transporting them where they are needed is the problem. 

Edited by CTC_ClanLeader
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Problem ? What problem ? Transport ain't a problem in my eyes. It is content. It is an activity that puts ships on the water, for ill or for good, with a purpose and part of plan.

 Isn't trade a vital and credible way for the game to represent the age of sail ? At any given point there were roughly estimation of 600 deep water trade vessels sailing around the caribbean in the early half of the 18th century. The number didn't change much in the follow up half, but the amount of cargo did, with bigger cargo spaces being used. From a "bucaneer age" it went to true private wars where corsairs did hit each other Nation's routes.

There is a problem indeed, the lack of trade wars. Thousands of privateers unemployed... trade raid ships rotting in the docks... all because of Protected Zones Act that span entire coastlines, engulf entire archipelagos, and overall promote a false sense of "we can do it!".

 

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10 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Problem ? What problem ? Transport ain't a problem in my eyes. It is content. It is an activity that puts ships on the water, for ill or for good, with a purpose and part of plan.

 Isn't trade a vital and credible way for the game to represent the age of sail ? At any given point there were roughly estimation of 600 deep water trade vessels sailing around the caribbean in the early half of the 18th century. The number didn't change much in the follow up half, but the amount of cargo did, with bigger cargo spaces being used. From a "bucaneer age" it went to true private wars where corsairs did hit each other Nation's routes.

There is a problem indeed, the lack of trade wars. Thousands of privateers unemployed... trade raid ships rotting in the docks... all because of Protected Zones Act that span entire coastlines, engulf entire archipelagos, and overall promote a false sense of "we can do it!".

 

You are right in some points, but sailing 3 ships for sale to a far port is boring and u have to take the risks, thats why we dont get what we need where we need it.

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6 minutes ago, CTC_ClanLeader said:

You are right in some points, but sailing 3 ships for sale to a far port is boring and u have to take the risks, thats why we dont get what we need where we need it.

"don't get what is needed where it is needed"

Why ? I can, faintly, get the boring part until a raider shows up and the chase is on.

By removing one part on own benefit the other side is simply shut off.

A big chunk of content is removed at the moment, but it is okay. I expect many more ships to be born in safety and more pvp ( whatever form ) happens...

Right ?! Right !?...

 

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Interesting idea.

However, I feel that the entire economy and trading system needs a overhaul.

Currently you can make millions by trading in goods that is not needed by any player and that you can sell in capital ports for a good profit just by sailing in protected waters or from ports near a capital port, thus minimizing the risk and maximising the profit.

I have always tried to do trade in goods that is needed by other players as that way, I know that I am helping the nation and making a profit as the goods should be in demand.

However, if you can buy mere trading goods that only the AI buys and sells, the only way the nation profits is by tax and seeing as most of the money is taxed in a Capital port the 10% tax rate is sent to the AI admiralty coffers :)

There is something wrong when you can make more money by selling AI needed goods in 20 mins then by sailing several hours and deliver needed resources to build ships from a port far away from your capital port.

Again I agree that we need a Supply and Demand economy that is fair to most players and I think that being chased by privateers is ok when doing trade runs if I know I have a fair chance of getting away but the current system with speed fitted ships in large groups that hunt slow traders is not exactly fair either.

 

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15 minutes ago, Niagara said:

Again I agree that we need a Supply and Demand economy that is fair to most players and I think that being chased by privateers is ok when doing trade runs if I know I have a fair chance of getting away but the current system with speed fitted ships in large groups that hunt slow traders is not exactly fair either.

This proposed broadstrokes idea puts a far greater reward on managing to deliver those goods, by having ship class availability linked to the city size. Thus, it would be of paramount importance to the 'Navy' types that the traders within their nation succeed as often as possible (escorts).

Other trade opportunities could be developed (holding majorities in industries that produce said goods, shipping goods to a centralised neutral port and selling to the heaviest purse, etc etc), but what the economy needs to do is become entwined with the combat in such a way, that it is crucial to progress, but without the burden of just falling on one side (people want to sail ships. Bigger ships require them to put in effort, whether they are a trader or brawler).

Edited by Coaster
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6 minutes ago, Coaster said:

This proposed broadstrokes idea puts a far greater reward on managing to deliver those goods, by having ship class availability linked to the city size. Thus, it would be of paramount importance to the 'Navy' types that the traders within their nation succeed as often as possible (escorts).

The problem arises when we have several types of players involved and all wants the game tuned to there liking.

  • Players vs Players
  • Players vs Enviroment
  • Traders
  • Shipbuilders
  • Hybrid of 2 or more

Most PvP/PvE players just wants ships to his/her liking and an enemy to point the guns at. That is fine, however seeing as this is a sandbox type of game it requires more players to supply them with the toys to play with.

Every player needs to understand that the more players we have ingame the better the game itself becomes.

For PvP, For PvE and for the Crafters and Traders and all the other types.

 

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5 minutes ago, Niagara said:

Shipbuilders

What is this? collecting resources, clicking buttons, putting result on the market. To say it is a niche activity is an understatement. It might hook 1 player in 100, into playing.

Also, since a player built ship is better than a store bought one, people want them. But it takes a lot of effort to make one. So people start attaching inflated value to them, being afraid to lose them because of the effort required to replace them, and when they are lost they sometimes give up playing because of the thought of the effort needed to replace.

So although 'shipbuilding' could be something added, what we want is players in ships, unafraid of sailing said ships, taking the risk to haul or guard cargos, because doing so means building the nation towards the choice of a bigger ship.

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Actually I'd risk saying the pure trade/crafter crowd is quite numerous. And it is common to all wargames that include trade & crafting. All good if their trade ships are content as well ( also the players that escort them ).

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4 minutes ago, Coaster said:

What is this? collecting resources, clicking buttons, putting result on the market. To say it is a niche activity is an understatement. It might hook 1 player in 100, into playing.

Also, since a player built ship is better than a store bought one, people want them. But it takes a lot of effort to make one. So people start attaching inflated value to them, being afraid to lose them because of the effort required to replace them, and when they are lost they sometimes give up playing because of the thought of the effort needed to replace.

So although 'shipbuilding' could be something added, what we want is players in ships, unafraid of sailing said ships, taking the risk to haul or guard cargos, because doing so means building the nation towards the choice of a bigger ship.

With changing the rewards for pvp and pve u should be afraid to loose ur ship, ships are cheap, rare upgrades makes the ships expensive - that wouldnt be resolved if u remove shipbuilding.

 

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21 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Actually I'd risk saying the pure trade/crafter crowd is quite numerous. And it is common to all wargames that include trade & crafting. All good if their trade ships are content as well ( also the players that escort them ).

I agree, and the traders/crafters need players to lose there ships to fuel the need to buy new ones. Supply and demand at its best

However there is a major problem with Open free PvP and that is that most will risk there ships if they deem they have a chance of winning but not so keen if the odds are heavily stacked against them. 

This creates a behaviour that leads to groups of players attacking single or smaller groups as the risks are low but the rewards are the same more or less.

However if you gained more rewards if you was victorious vs a even opponent or against a larger group people would perhaps not be so inclined to hunt in large packs vs single players. Thus reducing the risks to be ganked and increasing the amount of ships on OW and a the chance to find some PvP action.

Also that you need to sink the enemy to get PvP marks make surrendering somewhat useless for both sides.

You can use it to save time ofc but the winner still needs to sink the ship to get PvP marks. You can surrender to deny the enemy PvP marks if they have done no damage to you prior to surrendering (Not sure if this is still so).  I am sure the more active PvP players can give more reasons for and against.

Make is so if you surrender and the enemy returns your ship you are towed to a port nearby and cannot leave that port for 10 mins due to being a captive. That way you cannot just jump into a bigger ship and go and revenge gank after them.

But if you are a pirate and wants the rewards but dont want to sink the enemy ship but rather just peek and see if there is anything you want in the hold you cannot just do that and then allow the trader to continue on there merry way after you loot them... This would also make the risks for traders less as for newer players the ship might be the highest cost and not the trade goods being hauled.

Also the current change to trading vessel speeds when loaded makes it harder for traders to ship goods unescorted or in dangerous waters. This change is ok as a fully loaded vessel is slower then a empty one, however the problem is that non trading vessels was also fully loaded with fresh water, salted food and fresh food etc that is not used in game and thus does not affect the speed for non trading vessels in this game.

That is a problem, as we now have speed reduction for traders but not for other vessels as they are almost never as fully loaded.

Also, why are we able to sail a 1st rate as close to land as a 6th rate or a flat bottom trading vessel?  Many traders sailed close to land because that they could sail much closer without risking going aground and a larger ship could not follow due to the risk of going aground. Thus allowing the Trading vessel to flee into shallow areas when spotted by a enemy.

We have some shallow areas in OW that suddenly when in a battle instance is no longer there and you can sail where you cant in OW. This could replace some of the safezones as the hunters would need either smaller ships or risk that the prey eludes them by reaching shallow waters near land,rocks or reefs.

The current system that trading vessels only have 3 skill slots is also weird, perhaps add more trading related skills like

  • skilled purser = 5% increase in hold space as the purser manages to stack it better to use the space more efficiently.
  • Trader Trim = 6 % increase in OW speed only and only useable on trading vessels (obtained with trading marks ofc)

Again, The entire economy system needs a overhaul to be feasible and fun for more players.

21 hours ago, Coaster said:

Definately numerous, but they need the right buttons to click,  and the game needs ships on the water, where the profit of successful sailing is much more than the cost of sinking.

Again, people will look at the risk vs reward and choose accordingly, But if the rewards outweighs the risks then players will take chances.

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Sure, there could be a crafting system. Preferrably one that focuses on consumables, or cosmetics.

But the ship itself? no. Every player needs a ship to play the game (or more accurately every player is a ship). Using the economy to throttle a players ability to play the game is bad. Ships need to be easily replaceable when needed, and standardised. Any advantage or disadvantage should be from player skill, either from ability to sail, or choice of ship for a given goal.

What ive put forward is a suggestion of how to integrate the economy with the combat, creating a reason to be on the waves, navy or trader, that players can feel comfortable about taking part in, and working towards a goal for your nation. But without a ship, you cannot do anything. Nothing.

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42 minutes ago, CTC_ClanLeader said:

u are playing the wrong type of game... 

By suggesting an economic model, that puts less emphasis on spreadsheets, and more emphasis on putting ships out in the seas? an economic model where players who pvp might be interested in the challenge of sailing an armed trader, because losing the battle isnt going to set them back weeks, and getting the goods to port will have an actual effect on the RvR game?

No, i think really you're playing the wrong type of game.

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