The Devils Advocate

[Coaster]

Why does the game offer rewards for PvP?

If a player wants to go out and pick a fight, for no other reason than to fight, then so be it. But the game shouldn’t be offering incentives for it. It creates an artificial environment where the strategic element of the game becomes largely superfluous because simply picking a fight is more rewarding, as well as turning the community toxic as every player is reduced to being just a virtual power up pinyata.

Combat should be an expense. An overhead that traders try to minimize. A last resort that Admiralties use. Its going to happen, that’s humanity, but at least let the RvR strategy determine the lions share of when and where.

[Slim McSauce]

It's the easy way when the alternative is to make OW PVP missions and raids. See, originally we wanted increase combat mark rewards for PVP kills, as it was only x2 from PVE kills, but after reinforcement zones were added and PVP took a nose dive, PVP marks were added to try to steady the bleeding which worked as well as you'd expect, no one asked for PVP marks AGAIN when they didn't work the first time.. 

But this is just a theory. A game theory! 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Demsity]

I very strongly believe in rewards for PvP but I think that these rewards should be cosmetic (Ship paints, emblems etc..) and not high end upgrades.

[victor]

13 hours ago, Coaster said:

Why does the game offer rewards for PvP?

 

Because it's a game?

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

2 hours ago, Demsity said:

I very strongly believe in rewards for PvP but I think that these rewards should be cosmetic (Ship paints, emblems etc..) and not high end upgrades.

That I think is a real militaristic ethic, The Military are rewarded for combat by promotion, or awarded commendations and medals for their role in battle, it is true of both the winning and losing side.

Battlefield promotions, promotions to fill positions where the incumbent is KIA or even MIA are the norm and promotion in an 17th/18th century military branch was incredibly slow in peacetime. 30 year old LT's were normal and the meteoric promotions of many of the best Officers was rare for many reasons even in wartime due to patronage, so few officers were promoted on merit, Officers who dared to suggest that Officers should be promoted through merit would often find themselves sidelined  by those above who were often Patrons.

In a game like this I doubt promotion by merit would work well, complaints of the length of time to reach maximum rank have already been cited and promotion on merit would be slower. Elevations to the peerage also were a common incentive, Admirals in the Royal Navy often received Baronetcy's as reward, Nelson was Baron Bronte, many Admirals were Earls or Dukes although a significant number would already be a Lord before reaching Flag rank, sometimes, knighthoods were invested on Post Captains or more junior officers in exceptional circumstances.   The earned right to fly a Broad Pennant, Admiral's, or the Union Flag at the masthead may seem to the layman  a trivial matter, it was in point of fact considered a great honour to do so by those who flew them and to the ships and crews, equal to the USN practice of painting citations on their warships today is, or the Battle honours carried by Royal Naval warships passed from ship to ship of the same name, Both the new Queen Elizabeth and the Prince of Wales will carry their predecessors battle honours forward, the sense of a ship bearing my name fought at Jutland or the Denmark Straight can instill a sense of pride and achievement in ones ship. They do, as I said seem to be little things, but as reward for service, for those who attain high rank, for the ships Captain, her crew a reward for their efforts, be it prize money, promotion, or merely a battle honour or citation tells the Fleet, and the world at large that my ship, my Captain and my crewmates achieved this. After all a sense of achievement, no matter how small, is part of the content in war, life, and yes even in a game. 

 

[Coaster]

Should there then be special rewards for trading? Merchant marks, to be spent on improved equipment and ships, or even just unique paints and sails.

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

3 hours ago, Coaster said:

Should there then be special rewards for trading? Merchant marks, to be spent on improved equipment and ships, or even just unique paints and sails.

I think they should, the Merchant Marine of any nation is one of the reasons Nations keep and maintain Navy's, they go to sea in war and peace bringing vital supplies for the military, food and luxury goods for the civilians, their ships, relatively poorly armed,  when compared to front line warships,  the gunners ill trained stood little chance against a career Naval Captain, Privateers or Pirates.   

Recognition of the Merchant Marine's contribution to their nation has been slow in coming, It is possible that it was not until the Great War that the Merchant Marine who in their mostly unarmed vessels were seen to be everyone's victim of  choice. Attacked on, from under and latterly from above they had as little chance of survival as their 17th/18th/19th century counterparts.  World war 2's equivalent of the LGV  or Indiaman, the Armed Merchant Cruiser (incidentally according to Janes Fighting ships RMS Lusitania was listed as an AMC and as such a legitimate target) ships like Jervis Bay and Rawalpindi took on the behemoths like Scharnhorst and Gneisenau  (Rawalpindi took both on simultaneously!) With their 6" guns against the 11" broadsides of the German warships. With the exception of their gunners, and possibly their captains who were either RN or RNR/RNVR their crews were merchant Marine, they fought under the Red, the Blue or the White Ensign solely dependent on the status of their Captain. (RMS Lusitania was known to fly the Blue if her captain was ex RN or RNR, not to mention the notorious occasion she sailed under US colours in wartime!,  RMS Titanic's only voyage was under the Blue Ensign also).    

Yes, I think traders  should be recognised, it takes courage to sail out on warships knowing you may not be sailing home again, do traders sail with any less courage knowing their ship cannot even defend herself? They do not, so let them have their reward for the dangers war brings over and above their natural sea going hazards. 

[AfkSailor]

Being the devil's advocate, why are there rewards for PVE?

[Fargo]

4 hours ago, Coaster said:

Should there then be special rewards for trading? Merchant marks, to be spent on improved equipment and ships, or even just unique paints and sails.

Either people trade because trading is fun and meaningful, or they dont. Artificial rewards trying to replace a broken economy wont improve anything. Trading is even seperated from economy already with artificial NPC trading resources. 

Forcing stupid and boring gameplay instead of improving it is the best way to make players not play your game. Its already not working for conquest and PvP, it wont work for trading either. 

[Coaster]

That statement could be applied to PvP, which is the point of the thread.

Does there need to be an incentive to get into a ship and find a fight? No. That is perhaps the most basic activity in the game.

Incentives should be provided for the more niche elements of the game, without accidentally rewarding the most basic activity. Otherwise, all that will be done is the most basic activity.

[Capn Rocko]

The implementation of PvP marks greatly increased the amount of OW PvP battles overnight. I noticed players who had never PvPed before sailing in OW looking for action. For that, I would never argue that they should be taken away. For those who are not interested in PvP, the marks can always be purchased from other players.

If you are griping about PvP rewards, I will argue that the rewards do not give an unfair advantage. Almost every mod offered in rewards has at least one PvE alternative. Yes, cosmetics are the ideal reward, however, Admin stated that cosmetics cannot be added to the game until the next server wipe. So you will just have to deal with it until then. 

My only gripe with the PvP marks is that outnumbered fights are not penalized. Yes, marks are split amongst group members, but winning 5v1 shouldn't yield any marks at all (imo).

[Fargo]

42 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

The implementation of PvP marks greatly increased the amount of OW PvP battles overnight.

The goal is to make the game better, not to increase current PvP. We could do that in alot of stupid ways. Tradable and exchangable marks are nonesense in multiple ways.

[jodgi]

2 hours ago, Fargo said:

not to increase current PvP

The more PvP the better the game.

[Landsman]

6 hours ago, Fargo said:

The goal is to make the game better, not to increase current PvP

The game is PvP. That is its main content... PvP with ships. Even trading involves PvP, because without the risk of losing your cargo to pirates there is no real point in trading... you could accumulate endless amounts of gold but it would mean nothing ( just like in the current ingame eco, coming to think about it ). People with above average IQ can enjoy blasting away some bots only for so long, before it starts to get boring. PvP is what ( should ) make OW alive and what provides endless content. Look at the PvE server, barely anyone wants to play there, not even most PvE players as they flock to the PvP server too, for whatever reason...

[Coaster]

7 hours ago, Landsman said:

The game is PvP. That is its main content.

Then what is Naval Action Legends?

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Coaster said:

Then what is Naval Action Legends?

Naval Action Lite

[victor]

7 hours ago, Landsman said:

The game is PvP.

The game is a MMORPG (and not a MOBA where the A is a huge map)

[Yngvarr]

14 minutes ago, victor said:

The game is a MMORPG (and not a MOBA where the A is a huge map)

Naval Action = MMORPG with Age of Sail era ships

Naval Action Legends = vehicular combat MMO with Age of Sail era ships (like for example, World of Warships)

and of these 2 games, only Naval Action Legends is wholly focused on PVP action.

 

So for all the people that are nagging that they only want to do PVP and nothing else, sorry, but Naval Action is not your scene, Naval Action Legends is.

Since Naval Action is a MMORPG, there are certain elements that are core to the game, being the RPG elements such as crafting and PVE content.

People in the "PVP only"  mindset, should and would be partially dependent on PVE players for certain things, such as ships or crafting of upgrades.

The dev's way of adding ship notes for PVP marks into the game is just a lazy way of shutting up the "PVP only" players in their constant crusade of removing anything remotely considered as PVE content from their path.

TLDR: Naval Action is an MMORPG, if you only ever want to do PVP, you don't belong in that game.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Yngvarr

[Landsman]

24 minutes ago, Coaster said:

Then what is Naval Action Legends?

The only version of NA worth playing at the moment? OW would be so good without safe zones for veteran players and a lot more players online... but it sadly isn't the case...

[Landsman]

21 minutes ago, victor said:

The game is a MMORPG

Yeah, take the PvP out of it and see where it goes... good luck. Just looking at the player numbers of the PvE server and the fact that even most PvE player rather play their PvE on the PvP server tells the whole story... 

[victor]

Just now, Landsman said:

Yeah, take the PvP out of it and see where it goes... good luck. Just looking at the player numbers of the PvE server and the fact that even most PvE player rather play their PvE on the PvP server tells the whole story... 

no man, stop a moment.

Here it's just you that want to take away every other aspect of the game, telling that NA is only PVP.

I like PVP also but I do not like ONLY PVP and so I say that this is a MMO that shall also have an important PVE part!

So your answer is just the usual tentative to start a fight instead of reasoning. But hey, that's not news: you always do that.

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by victor

[Landsman]

2 minutes ago, victor said:

no man, stop a moment.

Here it's just you that want to take away every other aspect of the game, telling that NA is only PVP.

I like PVP also but I do not like ONLY PVP and so I say that this is a MMO that shall also have an important PVE part!

So your answer is just the usual tentative to start a fight instead of reasoning. But hey, that's not news: you always do that.

 

I am afraid you just didnt understand what I meant... NA could exist without PvE ( case in point is Legends ) but barely anyone would play it without PvP  ( especially for 100+ hours ). So yeah PvP is what defines NA... hence I said it is PvP. Why do you think even PvE players want to play on the PvP server??

[Slim McSauce]

Crafting/trading and PVE don't go hand in hand. You can have PVP only with crafting.

You can play survival simulator on DayZ, but everything still revolves around PVP because that's the nature of the game. Naval Action isn't about PVE at all. In fact you could remove all AI ships as long as you had a population to fill the OW. The same can't be said in reverse, just look at the PVE server,

You can't use Fantasy MMO mechanics in a Naval Action because reality limits this game. That being said, PVE content shouldn't be ignored, its a good buffer to PVP. But it shouldn't be mixed in with PVP/RVR based nations because it just gets in the way, looking at multi capital safezones and colonial nations

Edited December 13, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[victor]

Sad thing is that, as it happend with server merge, Devs will listen to the vocal minorities once more.

But this one-two -  this time - will be really fatal for the game.

Edited December 13, 2017 by victor

[Coaster]

2 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Crafting/trading and PVE don't go hand in hand. You can have PVP only with crafting.

You can play survival simulator on DayZ, but everything still revolves around PVP because that's the nature of the game. Naval Action isn't about PVE at all. In fact you could remove all AI ships as long as you had a population to fill the OW. The same can't be said in reverse, just look at the PVE server,

You can't use Fantasy MMO mechanics in a Naval Action because reality limits this game. That being said, PVE content shouldn't be ignored, its a good buffer to PVP. But it shouldn't be mixed in with PVP/RVR based nations because it just gets in the way, looking at multi capital safezones and colonial nations

There is little or no PvE content. Everything revolves around PvP. The population is not coming. Quite the opposite, from reports.

 

The PvE server is empty because there is little or no PvE content.