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Patch 14: Part 2 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

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On 12/21/2017 at 12:41 PM, admin said:

don't forget please that majority of ports have limited BR and a lot of them won't even let first rate in.

4800 is enough to bring in a few First Rates to be the deciding factor in the port battle. 2400 BR ports are few and far between, and there's not a 2400 BR region where non-victorymark players can fight over. They're just scattered across the entire map and experience has already shown us that 2400 BR ports of importance will be decided by screening anyways. Not like it's hard to just overpower a 2400 BR fleet.

You made First Rates the best ships in the game, hands down, especially in group engagements. All the completely arbitrary values you have assigned such as armor, armor thickness, mast values, you favored First Rates over the other ships. Second and Third rates have less armor, less thickness, are easier to demast and have significantly fewer crew so they can't stand up to first rates, and anything smaller just loses main masts from direct fire in single broadsides and therefore can't compete at all.


And now you're hiding these ships behind the PVP mark wall, and by no means is it a small wall. 100 PVP marks is an insame sum to acquire for 99% of your player base (and you know this) - but one faction is getting *showered* in these victory marks every week. Currently the map says this will be us, and tbh it already is us (I have 10 of them just to myself at this point), and anyone who can't get in on this biggest Win More Bandwagon I have ever seen in competitive gaming will be struggling to field first rate fleets that can take on already established first rate fleets.

Making the Wasa a PVP mark only ship instead of balancing its BR (indefatigable 44 guns is 250 BR!)  is just the other big Win More change you've put here. Those who have a Wasa and win in PVP with it get more marks to get more Wasas, and those who don't just get farmed by this god mode ship.

I quit the game the first time you decided 500g per crew member was a good price. It took you months to realize that mistake and it cost you half of the remaining player base. Am I exaggarating? My last solid prime time screenshot from that time was 23-08-16 at 23:15 CET and you had 824 players online. Today, you have exactly half of that.  Merge is already over and on a Friday night we're not even back to the 500 players we briefly had when port BR limits were added.

I predict these changes will have the exact same effect.

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On 12/21/2017 at 1:38 PM, admin said:

if you capture 12 3 points ports (many controlled by one nation - lets call it Nation A) you will achieve the following

is the information on which port is worth 3 points even accessible in the game...

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@admin to many people rather cry on the forums than play the game is what it seems like to me. 

just goes to show its okay if a game is hard. but its not okay if game is easy and then is made hard via patches. you gave them safe zones. and now they don't want to leave them. 

 

Edited by King of Crowns

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On 12/21/2017 at 4:45 PM, admin said:

if asking questions is a word fight for you we don't know how conversation is possible. But we will try again.

If Russia attracted players why did not prussia? Is it national leaders responsibility? or a game responsibility? Why Rovers and LIONS left prussia? @z4ys @Sella22?
Why russia gained players ?
@Anolytic thoughts?

Russia back then is Russia today. You know you have a very large Russian playerbase, and most of them jumped over to the Russian nation.

Prussia on the other hand is not Germany. In fact, Saupreiss (Prussian Pig) is a common insult even today in Bavaria for people living in the Northern half of Germany, and they do not associate in any way with Prussia. If anything, there's mild hostility. That's why we stayed in Sweden. I don't know who the national leaders of a nation are that has zero members, so I'm pretty sure they have no responsibility. But that is pretty moot. You have easily 5 or 6 nations that will never ever be in the top 3, and therefore the RVR game will not happen for them.

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On 12/21/2017 at 5:07 PM, Valentine Karrde said:

Potbs, an age of sail game that got rvr about as right as you can, did this: the nation that won, got conquest points for writs for refit ships etc. the next three nations got them as well. The underdog nations got bonuses to money, experience, and resource requirement  reductions. All nations could make all ships but the ones who won couldn't refit certain non game breaking ships through the conquest marks. People re rolled to under dog nations all the time to get the bonuses. The winning nations got their pretty refits that didn't change the balance of power or give them a greater advantage. Everyone was happy and the balance of power was constantly shifting. 

Unlike game labs, flying labs software understood that people respond better to the carrot than the stick. Punishing weaker nations just causes people to re roll to the stronger ones and never achieves balance. 

Dude, FLS was an a-grade clown show who got nothing right. Conquest marks were irrelevant because all they bought were the damage resistance modules, and once you had those, you never needed them again. FLS was also the clown show that thought it a good idea to add a quest to the game, kill 10 enemy players, and the reward was 25 MoV. If a full group ganked a single player, every player of that group got a quest progress, essentially making 6vs1 ganking the most profitable activity in the game. There was absolutely nothing to be gained out of losing a fight in that game, there was not even an exp reward for damage dealt as this game currently has, let alone gold (as this game used to have when there was a lot of players playing)

Oh and let's not forget one thing: FLS was the clown show with a morbidly obese "bacon queen" banning everyone from the forum who criticized the game in any way, most players were on their third or fourth forum account by the time Sony pulled out and told FLS to die in a fire and everyone was bragging about how many "Forum MoV" they had earned already.
 

Admin may get some things wrong with this game, but comparing this to POBS is a completely unjustified insult. We're two years into the open world game, and POBS was by far deader after two years. It was a really rotting, smelling corpse at that point, condensed to two servers with no one around except a handful of raceboat gankers. The only thing they eventually did right was to just outright remove second and first rates from the game as being too powerful and too grindey, and then they made a step back from that again and failed again.

If you think POBS was in any way a success, look at where the key developers are today. They're doing Facebook games. Facebook games. Because no one would ever hire them for any real game anymore at this point.

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On 7/12/2017 at 12:29 PM, admin said:

 

    • victory marks will only be given to the players who:
      • Have at least one lord protector status in at least one port by the end of the round - bringing his nation a control point or,
      • Participated in a successful port battle during the conquest round (even if the port was lost later on) - bringing his nation a battle point

and what about all the people who helped with hostility generation and screening? it seems that we are back at the same system as the old Conquest marks if not worse.. i mean what is different? you only get VM if you participate personally in the port battles (if i understand the patch notes correctly) and that only if your nation is in top 3.. 

in contrast to my other commnets i'll try to be helpfull this time so how about :

the entire CLAN gets Victory Marks directly in CLAN WAREHOUSE (i'm sure it's possible same way as the port tax goes in the clan) i won't say 1 VM for each member coz it would be too much but how about 1/2 of the number of members in the clan? then it will be up to the clan leader/officers to split the VM fairly for all the people who participated in screening etc .. otherwise the screeners don't get anything and have no reason to continue screening risking their ships in the process

suppose only 2 people from a clan of 20 go in the PB and another 10 are screening (quite usual) with the current system if those 2 people get 1 VM each there isn't much they can split with the other 10 right? 

so pls think about it .. this might be a good idea ofc still doesn't solve the problem that all the other nations are FUBAR along with all the new players who will never be able to get decent ships therefore won't be able to participate in the port battles

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20 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

Russia back then is Russia today. You know you have a very large Russian playerbase, and most of them jumped over to the Russian nation.

Prussia on the other hand is not Germany. In fact, Saupreiss (Prussian Pig) is a common insult even today in Bavaria for people living in the Northern half of Germany, and they do not associate in any way with Prussia. If anything, there's mild hostility. That's why we stayed in Sweden. I don't know who the national leaders of a nation are that has zero members, so I'm pretty sure they have no responsibility. But that is pretty moot. You have easily 5 or 6 nations that will never ever be in the top 3, and therefore the RVR game will not happen for them.

The most players in the Russian Nation are not Russian! 😉

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11 hours ago, Guenwhyvar said:

There are some people playing this game who really like it to succeed. 

Having DEVs pull a STUPID STUNT like with the Victory-marks is making it really hard to keep people in the game. |

We're doing our best, but this is just making it impossible.

Game-balance is something really sensitive. Changing something this big is NOT helping with the balance of the game and is pushing people away.

We need MORE players, not less of them.

my word !

please reconsider this change !

Its really hard to deal with this.
please ..

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4 hours ago, OneEyedSnake said:

I think we can work with this. Solution for the player base: if you are a pvper and have tons of pvp marks help the pve grinders out by sharing those victory marks. PvP helps PvE Grind, helps Crafters. 

Do you have hundreds of PVP marks to supply your nation with a full first rate fleet?

The funny thing is: we do have another asset wipe and map wipe coming, correct?

So the first nation to win the map will get showered in victory marks and immediately field full fleets of first rates again, while the other nations will struggle to combine enough PVP marks together to maybe match that with 1-2 first rates of their own. The mass first rate nation will then always attack the nations that are closest to taking #1 from them, making sure no one gets ahead of them and continues raking in more and more first rates. The snowball will be completely out of control.

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2 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

Do you have hundreds of PVP marks to supply your nation with a full first rate fleet?

The funny thing is: we do have another asset wipe and map wipe coming, correct?

So the first nation to win the map will get showered in victory marks and immediately field full fleets of first rates again, while the other nations will struggle to combine enough PVP marks together to maybe match that with 1-2 first rates of their own. The mass first rate nation will then always attack the nations that are closest to taking #1 from them, making sure no one gets ahead of them and continues raking in more and more first rates. The snowball will be completely out of control.

its easy to get upwards of 30 pvp marks in a mid sized pvp battle. combine that with a few others, and you have a 1st rate

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Give it three weeks over the holidays.  Let people play through it, see what happens. If Sweden doesn't budge, if the top 3 remain relatively stagnant, I suspect things will change.  Give it a chance first.

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2 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

Do you have hundreds of PVP marks to supply your nation with a full first rate fleet?

The funny thing is: we do have another asset wipe and map wipe coming, correct?

So the first nation to win the map will get showered in victory marks and immediately field full fleets of first rates again, while the other nations will struggle to combine enough PVP marks together to maybe match that with 1-2 first rates of their own. The mass first rate nation will then always attack the nations that are closest to taking #1 from them, making sure no one gets ahead of them and continues raking in more and more first rates. The snowball will be completely out of control.

that reminds me of what the situation just after the full wipe half a year ago when the first nations to help eachother with Conquest marks (setting up port battles for eachother and not showing up) were far ahead of the rest.. i remember the spanish had 30 L'oceans at the time that brits had 2-3 Agamemnons .. there was nothing the brits could do to stop the spanish when they decided to attack except use the basic cutter fireships 

this will repat again after the wipe i suspect

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3 minutes ago, OneEyedSnake said:

its easy to get upwards of 30 pvp marks in a mid sized pvp battle. combine that with a few others, and you have a 1st rate

That is not my experience. At the Sweden vs BF battle at Higuain I scored 2 kills and 4 assists on First and Second Rates and I walked away with a mere 13 PVP marks.

30 PVP average per player marks is impossible because not a single ship is worth 30 marks. If you made 30 marks in a battle,  everyone else on your team made next to nothing.  Every time a first rate sinks, it's 75 to 77 PVP marks destroyed.

But you didn't answer my question: do you have hundreds of PVP marks just sitting around? From what I know, even the very best PVPers with us have earned a few hundred PVP marks in *total*. and they want to use that stuff for themselves, too.

Edited by Quineloe

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4 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

That is not my experience. At the Sweden vs BF battle at Higuain I scored 2 kills and 4 assists on First and Second Rates and I walked away with a mere 13 PVP marks.

30 PVP average per player marks is impossible because not a single ship is worth 30 marks. If you made 30 marks in a battle,  everyone else on your team made next to nothing.  Every time a first rate sinks, it's 75 to 77 PVP marks destroyed.

But you didn't answer my question: do you have hundreds of PVP marks just sitting around? From what I know, even the very best PVPers with us have earned a few hundred PVP marks in *total*. and they want to use that stuff for themselves, too.

There has been some shifts in how many marks are awarded for each kill since I last played.  I had about 125ish when they were done away with last time, over the course of a... six week career?  Would likely translate to about 400 now, which, I would personally use for myself, as you say.

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12 hours ago, Serk said:

I like the idea of hard to get 1rst rate, but I'm not sure about the timing. I think @admin could have waited until the 3 new 3rd rates are launched and become the backbone of RVR fleets.

Meanwhile, maybe keep Wasa as a combat mark ship, as she is the best way for nations without CM to challenge those  at the top?

 

Any ETA on those new 3rd rates? Must be a few months still.

Why would you think new 3rd rates would replace first rates as the RVR backbone?

3rd rates are not maneuverable enough to outmaneuver organized 1st rate fleets. They however have significantly less firepower (32 vs 42pd gun deck and usually 2-3 heavy guns fewer), significantly less crew (650 vs 850 to 1100, relevant for boarding brawling), significantly weaker masts  (131cm vs 144cm), significantly weaker armor (e.g. 7400/73 vs 9200/80)
in a brawl, a first rate puts a third rate into reload shock using regular ball shot. The third rate in return will deal maybe 20%.

Either New third rates suffer the Wasa disease and become ridiculously OP for their rate / BR, or they're balanced compared to the Bellona, and therefore will be irrelevant for PBs.

The Wasa already doesn't counter first rates, even though it has a very wonky power to BR ratio. For a start, it has even thinner masts (122cm) and very thin armor (compared to first rates) at 6500/68. A Bellona already gets shredded by a first rate broadside, a Wasa doesn't stand a chance. The Wasa is lolop because 6500/68 is incredibly strong vs 18pd cannon.  But 42pd are an entirely different matter.  A first rate will just take off the top masts of a Wasa and then eat it up close. one by one.

The only way to make first rates truly rare that I can see with the current tools is by using the BR mechanic for PB Limits even more. First Rates 800 BR, Second Rates 500 BR, third rates 300 BR. A 25 third rate fleet would come in at 7500 BR, so on a 9600 BR port, you'd have 2100 BR left to upgrade from Third Rates. Do we bring 10 second rates, 15 third rates? how about 3 first rates, two second rates, 20 third rates? Options, options. And it would free up a lot of economy power to build more frigates for random OW PVP.

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13 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

That is not my experience. At the Sweden vs BF battle at Higuain I scored 2 kills and 4 assists on First and Second Rates and I walked away with a mere 13 PVP marks.

30 PVP average per player marks is impossible because not a single ship is worth 30 marks. If you made 30 marks in a battle,  everyone else on your team made next to nothing.  Every time a first rate sinks, it's 75 to 77 PVP marks destroyed.

But you didn't answer my question: do you have hundreds of PVP marks just sitting around? From what I know, even the very best PVPers with us have earned a few hundred PVP marks in *total*. and they want to use that stuff for themselves, too.

yes, im not like you apparently. and most that I know apparently are not either. I said a mid sized pvp battle. Perhaps your nation can help your aim, i do not know your problem. I do not have this problem. I got 18 pvp marks with 3 trader ships sunk. 

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8 minutes ago, OneEyedSnake said:

yes, im not like you apparently. and most that I know apparently are not either. I said a mid sized pvp battle. Perhaps your nation can help your aim, i do not know your problem. I do not have this problem. I got 18 pvp marks with 3 trader ships sunk. 

cool, we can go out all ad hominem if you don't actually want to argue with real numbers as the game uses them. What part of "2 kills" did you not understand? Those were mostly Bucentaures. I think I can aim, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten those kill credits. BTW, Captain Reverse also only got 15 PVP marks in that battle, and with 1/5 he was one of the best players on the team.

Can you define what a mid sized PVP battle is, please use total BR as the value.

Please don't pretend all players can just start to generate enough PVP marks to create first rate fleets. They wouldn't go for 200k a piece if that were even remotely true.

Edited by Quineloe

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8 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

we dont have months :) I would give the 3rd rate better guns, make her a bellona clone as she is and just have 2 different colored ships. Then we have 3 3rd rates. Wasa, bellona and 3rd rate. 

A lot of the issues come from the linear increments of penetration as you go up in shot size. If a 42pd only had 2-3cm more penetration than the 32pd as opposed to the 10cm it actually does have, this whole caste system for ships would disappear fairly quickly.

At 250m, a 42pd still has 125 cm of penetration. That's what more than what a 24pd has point blank. An 18pd shot only has 109cm penetration at point blank? What? Given you can have a 100cm armor first rate with the new Naval structure refit, you can have a first rate that is almost *immune* to 18pd long cannons at any range (since you never really have that perfect 90° hit anyways)
If any lineship had been immune to guns 18pd and smaller, they would not have fitted so many small guns on these ships in the first place. As I already posted before, that 10cm penetration advantage (on top of the 7cm armor advantage on first rates) is the reason 3rd rates are a non-factor in PBs.

I don't know it for certain, but I don't think this is realistic at all on top of the whole thing.

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7 hours ago, Seraphic Radiance said:

Yep , and also zerg who always wins will steam roll through everything in the best ships soon enough and that my friend is the sharp nail that is waiting to strike. 

Potbs had the same problem. French one time became so strong that they would take 1st rates to pvp on daily basis and no one else could afford to beat them. Potbs they had instaspike mechanics where you could sink a 1st rate in 1 sec and that balanced many things.

 

I will now cast the magic spell "jugular" on that Invincible first rate, turning it from a heavily armored tank into a paper ship that takes bonus damage on every hit!

And now I will cast the magic spell Thundering Broadside, to prevent the player in the Invincible from casting any defensive spells that will counter the now upcoming instant damage spike that will destroy a completely undamaged ship in the blink of an eye at a distance of 500 yards!

Now everyone else casts the magic spell Ultima Ratio Regum,  which will make our cannonballs deal twice the actual damage, completely obliterating the DR mechanic that the FLS Devs had spent so much time to fine tune and balance.

Oh no, he survived with 1 structure because he did get off the magic spell Last Stand, and that 1 structure is now immune to damage for 75 seconds! Oh no, he cast another magic spell, Invincibility! Now we cannot hit him at all for another 30 seconds as he starts repairing with carpenter, admirals overhaul and emergency repairs! Oh look, it's three minutes later, and his ship is FULLY REPAIRED!


What a shit show that game was, lol.

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8 hours ago, Wraith said:

Two speed fit 4ths and a thickness fit 2nd can take out a 1st via stern raking and capping though (and that's with the 1st being both a quality 1st rate sailor and board fit). So, balanced?

That's 950 BR vs 600 BR. Not exactly a relevant scenario for RVR. Where's the other second rate assisting the first rate?

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5 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Given US hours, I guess you'll see more at US hours :) not at EU time.

It's 9PM EST now, numbers have dropped to 240. Where are your US players?

Meanwhile, let me share this random March 2016 screenshot (ie late enough after EA launch that all the random steam people who had no interest in a game with these combat mechanics have already left). 19:58 CET.

Unbenannt.png

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7 hours ago, vazco said:

Given that you'll probably gain most on this patch in terms of power on the server, I think this is a strange statement.

Its just how it is.  Was the same outrage when you only got conquest marks from portbattles. Sweden just worked with it and was successfull. Its the same now to be honest.

Thickness has to be changed and BR of ships has to be changed so that BR of 3rds and 1st is ok and a fair display of battle value so the x 3rd rates are even with that 1 firstrate and you just need more players for it.

Also how many 1sts do you need nowadays for portbattles? They almost sont exist anymore except in large pbs and little pbs when its only 5 guys or so attacking

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14 hours ago, admin said:

Update was deployed today 22 Dec.

  • Labor hours contracts can now be bought for combat marks
  • Victory marks can be bought for PvP marks to promote both RVR and PVP activites
  • Prices for ship notes for PvP marks updated and generally lowered.
  • Wasa and L' Hermione have been moved to PVP rewards and prices were updated
  • Ability to acquire wasa on a pve server will be added next week together with the removal of permits for majority of vessels on both servers.
    • permits will remain for first rates and second rates
  • Distribution of victory marks changed
    • victory marks will be given to top 3 positions on the conquest weekly leaderboard
      • 3 marks for first place
      • 2 marks for second place
      • 1 marks for third place
    • victory marks will only be given to the players who:
      • Have at least one lord protector status in at least one port by the end of the round - bringing his nation a control point or,
      • Participated in a successful port battle during the conquest round (even if the port was lost later on) - bringing his nation a battle point

 

Okies. So, to get access to Victory Marks to craft first rate you need to do PvP, Or seriously grind stuff and buy it from others doing PvP.

You dont get any VM for screening or crafting or trading or all the other stuff that aids the nation. Its just the players with ships in a PB that gets them if your nation is top 3...

There are few a flaws here.

  • This will be forcing players to either do PvP to gain PvP marks for conversion or pay insane amounts to buy it from others doing PvP.
  • You are NOT rewarding all players helping in RvR but just a select group that manages to do PB and not the crafters, traders etc
  • You are removing a large portion of content from players who do not do as you think that they should play the game.
  • You are also not changing the way people do pvp, you are encouraging ganks over fair fight as people will need to grind PvP marks.
  • It will in some ways be better to fight a empty PB over one in which you find a fair fight as you need to do atleast 1 PB to gain that elusive VM

 

I don't know how this will work out and if more will play or leave.

I think that when faced with changes most will react negatively as you know what you have now and are unsure about the future after the changes and thus tends to view change as bad.

What I can say is that for me personally, being forced to do something to gain access to late game content is not what I look for in a game. You can lure me or entice me to grind stuff but to state that either you do this or not at all is not a good way to communicate with your playerbase and customers.

I understand that I play on a PvP server, I choose to play on a PvP server. I understand that there will be PvP related content and I dont mind to do PvP/RvR but I do not care for the ganking, the toxic atmosphere it creates and the lack of understanding from certain players that not everyone wants to play the game like they play it.

Some of the other players actually like to do trading, Craft ships for others, supply the nation with the coal needed to build cannons for the ships PvP players sail in, yet many PvP players tend to look down on those who do that boring stuff and write Carebear and think they somehow should have larger say in how the game is run/designed over a PvE player.

Lets face it. Even if only a 1000 players log in each day not all of them bother to post there opinions here or in Global/Nation so they are the silent majority most of the time. 

The facts are...

The more players the better the game for everyone

  • More players = More chances for PvP.
  • More players = More players crafting ships
  • More players = More traders supplying the crafters or doing money trading runs
  • More players = More PvE grinding
  • More players = Bigger chance of finding cool persons to play with and increase the fun.

 

Some of the changes will make it harder for the casual players to enjoy end game content. For those with much spare time spent in the game they can grind the PvP marks if they can find players to gank with and victims to gank. Or if your part of the top 3-5 nations in RvR and manage to to a PB.

For I do not see any change that promotes Open World PvP or more balanced fights, but rather more ganks as you need to grind PvP marks that is needed as more stuff is behind a PvP mark paywall.

 

 

 

 

 

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