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Patch 14: Part 2 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

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This topic is moving too fast and with too much repetition and empty arguments for me to get an overview and give a concise representation of my opinion on the most recent changes. I will try nevertheless:

6 hours ago, admin said:

Important experimental update.

Gameplay changes
Victory marks (marks received for winning the map) conversion is now only available for the PVE server

Improvements
Crash reports sent only take into account logs of the recent crash (speeding up returning to the game significantly after the crash)

 

Conversion was removed to increase importance of port capture and victories in conquest. Expected effect = more port battles and more pvp; higher importance of port control and port victories.

I realise that you call this an "experimental update", but a lot of people didn't read that part. And regardless, this experiment will change the RvR-game immensely for however long it lasts, and will negatively affect many nations.

You are trying to introduce to RvR a ladder system like the one we have for PvP. This is already not a good idea in PvP (don't take my word for it, I am not a good PvP-player, take it from some of the best and most active PvP-players that have written about it on the forum). You are making a ladder system, where once someone has climbed to the top, the ladder is retracted behind them, preventing others from climbing up alongside them. It encourages PvP for the people who already win and already did PvP without encouragement, while it discourages PvP for the rest. The same goes for RvR.

The effect that this change will have is not what you expect. The consequences will be:

-higher risk, no additional reward. 

-numbers importance greatly increased

-restricting nations strategical options

-no gameplay diversity. You either have to do everything in this game (rvr, pvp, trade) or you can do nothing.

You say in some posts that not all ports requires 1st rates to fight the PB. But there are not enough shallow ports on the map for everyone to only focus on them, nor is everyone equally interested in shallow PBs. And for all deep water ports 1st rates are a necessary tactical tool. Even if you can do PBs with 2nd rates, even 2400BR ports require access to 1st rates to be able to contest them against all tactical setups that the enemy could bring. The thickness and repair meta has made 1st rates even more superior over 2nd rates than they were before the structure patch.

 

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Just now, Intrepido said:

A vry good point.

The difference of 8 cm thickness (and HP) between the St Pavel and any first rate makes thme impossible to beat in a fleet engagement.

anything about 90 is op I think. 

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Frankly this makes zero sense to implement now.  The map is already mostly conquered and players have 1st rates in reserve.  Perhaps after a map and ship wipe....I can see the appeal.  But right now 1st rates aren't going anywhere in battles and all this does is prevent newer and returning players from being able to sail in them.  

and for the love of god, why are you still keeping neutral ports as part of the map win.  Actual combat should be rewarded.  Farming AI should not.

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22 minutes ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

Re:  How Econ is entirely safe in protected zones:  If a merchant is attacked, they can call reinforcements.  The list of profit-making goods is irrelevant, as you don't make gold in trade, you make it farming missions.  You can 100% build ships safely, and SPECIALTY ships safely, within protected zones.

That is a problem.

You seem to be just making things up as you go along. On one hand you say merchants when attacked can call reinforcements, but then you say the list of profit making goods is irrelevant (forgetting that it was you who posted the long list of trade goods in another thread) and that it is doing missions in the safe zone that makes gold. Well I do not see many people out in merchantmen doing missions. Traders have to move trade goods across the map and they have to leave the green zone to make profit. The fact that they get a break for the last 10% of some runs when they can call reinforcements is not game breaking and it actually encourages them to make trade runs as the size of the zone makes it more difficult for the hunter to cover every exit from the port.

If you get rid of green zones then make it so that traders spawn at a point of their choosing a certain distance from the port to avoid the port campers that just want easy kills on undefended targets.

I can agree that mission running to make money in the safe zone is an issue, but traders are not the problem. Traders now sail the slowest ships and cargo slows them further and they do not have as many upgrade slots.

Also the reason they made it so that you can craft ships completely in the safe zone was to stop a nation being reduced to a point where it was impossible to craft a way out of.

Edited by Archaos

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27 minutes ago, admin said:

You need 5 people to capture 35-40% of ports on the map. 

When you have 1st rates, sure. This is not what I meant as a problem though. Clan leaders will have to decide who can get a chance to get a VM, as those who don't get to battle all never get it. 

 

Why not allow for crafting a Vic permit for eg. 400CM, and keep all other first rates for VM? This way small nations at least have a fighting chance. Instead of killing a game for us, you would then just cripple it for us. 

Edited by vazco
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32 minutes ago, admin said:

We won't give high end content from the green zone any more. Get out and fight. 

Sounds really good in theory but I think there would have been much better solutions like to not give reinforcments for 1-3 or 1-4th rates instead for starters... 

31 minutes ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

Merchants should never be protected by reinforcements.

Make econ matter, and you make everything else matter.

Pretty much this.

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2 minutes ago, vazco said:

When you have 1st rates, sure. This is not what I meant as a problem though. Clan leaders will have to decide who can get a chance to get a VM, as those who don't get to battle all never get it. 

 

F*ck the clan leader who does not give you VMs if you help them cap ports. Start your own and cap all 1200-2400 BR ports on the caribbean with 5-10 friends

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12 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Frankly this makes zero sense to implement now.  The map is already mostly conquered and players have 1st rates in reserve.  Perhaps after a map and ship wipe....I can see the appeal.  But right now 1st rates aren't going anywhere in battles and all this does is prevent newer and returning players from being able to sail in them.  

and for the love of god, why are you still keeping neutral ports as part of the map win.  Actual combat should be rewarded.  Farming AI should not.

1st - 2nd rate wipe will be needed before launch as well as Marks. There is too many rates on this server. Everything else can stay. 

Edited by Seraphic Radiance

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19 minutes ago, admin said:

But we need to force players to rvr. Old players might not like it (and its fine) new players will come on release and will consider this a given.

Forcing players is the wrong way to go. You should instead encourage them. With nice paints maybe, or with redeemable chests that contain random (or port specific) resources much like we got for winning port battles in the early days only that we won't have to carry the resources back with us and can just redeem them when getting back into port.

15 minutes ago, admin said:
  • Sailing a first rate is a goal for many new players. (not for old players who have seen anything)
  • New players come to the game daily and a lot will come on release
  • When they know rvr is the only way to receive them they WILL participate in RVR because they never knew other options
  • If they participate there will be more RVR and PVP. 

We must break the existing (bad) paradigm before release. You want it too. If you want rvr and pvp. 
 

This is completely wrong. RvR is not for everyone. Just like trading is not for everyone. We need a dynamic and diverse MMO world where everyone is part of the ecosystem. RvR is competitive end-game content for groups. It is a small niche of the game. RvR is a positive influence on gameplay in as much as it changes the dynamic of the OW. If RvR is the end-all-be-all then we might as well get lobby based PBs. And then the next step is merging Naval Action with Naval Action Legends...

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7 hours ago, admin said:

Important experimental update.

Gameplay changes
Victory marks (marks received for winning the map) conversion is now only available for the PVE server

Conversion was removed to increase importance of port capture and victories in conquest. Expected effect = more port battles and more pvp; higher importance of port control and port victories.

I get the point of this and generally don't have an issue with it except:

If you are going to do this, you need to re-assess which perks require victory marks

a) Labor contracts, this will make smaller nations that can't win marks even less competitive as they will be unable to overcome the disparity in available labor hours to craft ships and cannon vs a larger nation or one that is more powerful). 

b) 1st rate (and h rattle) notes/permits, nation can't get enough points to earn marks, they can't get 1st rates (or h. rattlesnakes), which makes them less likely to be able to win ports to earn marks.

PvP marks and victory marks, if they are going to be restricted to only certain players, cannot be used to provide game-breaking advantages. (PvP marks don't, and provide a good example of the type of perks a restricted victory mark system could purchase). 

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1 minute ago, admin said:

Get out and fight. 

Sorry for off-topic but a nice mini event in OW to get more people out could be like the lost fleet event you already have in game but only 1 wreck and way more often in many more locations around the map and make warships be able to carry the deadman chest and not only traders... what do you think? Finally you would find enemies looking for PvP super easy and the hour long chases would actually matter with your precious chest in cargo? What do you think? This is a event that you can easily implement ( you already have the mechanics ) and it would make OW more interesting, creating small PvP hotzones all around the map ( wherever you think it's best but not only 4 locations like the current ) where people get drawn to and those that are out in the OW obviously have the advantage being there faster...

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So.

Naval action is for RVR/Clan Players. (Large nations only need apply).

Or small nations who can fight over neutral ports against AI.

There is no room for solo players. small clans. traders. PVP only players or PVE players.

Very, very bad direction.

Offering all ships to all players even by different routes will promote different styles of play and thus more players.

THIS new direction will be a new fine woods. please rethink and stop forcing styles of play onto people. You will create an elite game for 150 or so players.

Its a shame because the merge was just starting to settle down.

Edited by Flash Jack
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49 minutes ago, admin said:

you can't be everywhere. Even the most populated nation cannot be at 311 ports at once. We won't give high end content from the green zone any more. Get out and fight. 

 

Share the wealth for damage done by both sides and everyone will fight. Keep rewarding only one side and eventually it all ends.

And whilst I'm here, those who have come from the global server have little chance of catching up on the PvP over powered speed mods.

This is how you split your player base and this is how you destroy your player base.

Throw us a lifeline.

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Leaders/diplomats of 3 nations already told you they find this idea really bad. Almost everyone finds this idea dangerous. There are no strong opinions supporting this idea.

 

If your goal is to make new players try RvR, great. You can eg. require the last level to be received through XP gained in PvP/RvR fights.

If your idea is to make everyone do RvR, don't allow anyone to sail a 1st rate if he didn't participate in a PB in last 2 weeks.

If you want for players to move to top 3 nations, or desert all small nations, stay with your idea.

 

I think I'm done with trying to save the game. If your intention is to go with your idea regardless of feedback and consequences, maybe it's just time for me to move on to something else than NA and don't disturb your peace of mind.

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Seraphic Radiance said "Sorry, but after few port battles game becomes boring. There is no end goals or rewards that would keep players interested. Game is lacking content and details. The amount of work needed to do the work is not worth it and some even quit or stop showing up. Please get obsessed with PvE content before it's too late, game needs it badly. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Seraphic Radiance"

 

Here go some ideas for getting more PVE content:

-Fog both in OW and instances (PVE, PVP and PB);

-variable winds (idem);

-mutinies;

-enemy's AIs chasing you when your nation/clan has generated x% hostility against respective country/clan;

-rare goods (Cartagena tar, Grietje, Crooked cedar, Bermuda cedar, etc) dropping unexpected and randomly in seldom visited ports and disappearing with maintenance if not bought;

-all 5th rates and bigger ships craftable only;

- ...

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Okay...I have been rather harsh in my posts regarding these new changes....these horrible, game killing changes.....(sorry).....What I want to say is that up until the time, just prior to the merge, things were really getting good on the server. PVP and PB were evolving and happening with more frequency. It wasnt perfect, but it was really enjoyable. Then, the merger brought an evolution of play once more - more of an absorption. Still, even with some whining and moaning, things were settling down. It wasn't perfect, but almost everyone I know in game was happy with the direction. So....you really have done a great job Devs...I give you huge credit. However, much like the fine wood incident (shhhh) players are trying to warn you before real harm is done to the player base. Thank you for a great game and I haven't forgotten how hard you guys have worked. But please, stop and re-evaluate these changes. With respect. o7

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Just now, Christendom said:

very rarely does the entire community dislike an idea.  Usually its 50/50.  The ENTIRE community dislikes this @admin, do the smart thing here.

I don't dislike this idea, I am just skeptical that this will accomplish the goal of getting more players outside the safe zone (which is the primary goal) since there are already 4-5 port battles happening every day. 

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18 minutes ago, Red Dragon 13 said:

Seraphic Radiance said "Sorry, but after few port battles game becomes boring. There is no end goals or rewards that would keep players interested. Game is lacking content and details. The amount of work needed to do the work is not worth it and some even quit or stop showing up. Please get obsessed with PvE content before it's too late, game needs it badly. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Seraphic Radiance"

 

Here go some ideas for getting more PVE content:

-Fog both in OW and instances (PVE, PVP and PB);

-variable winds (idem);

-mutinies;

-enemy's AIs chasing you when your nation/clan has generated x% hostility against respective country/clan;

-rare goods (Cartagena tar, Grietje, Crooked cedar, Bermuda cedar, etc) dropping unexpected and randomly in seldom visited ports and disappearing with maintenance if not bought;

-all 5th rates and bigger ships craftable only;

- ...

^this^

 

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1 hour ago, admin said:
  • Sailing a first rate is a goal for many new players. (not for old players who have seen anything)
  • New players come to the game daily and a lot will come on release
  • When they know rvr is the only way to receive them they WILL participate in RVR because they never knew other options
  • If they participate there will be more RVR and PVP. 

We must break the existing (bad) paradigm before release. You want it too. If you want rvr and pvp. 
 

This is very logical

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1 hour ago, admin said:
  • Sailing a first rate is a goal for many new players. (not for old players who have seen anything)
  • New players come to the game daily and a lot will come on release
  • When they know rvr is the only way to receive them they WILL participate in RVR because they never knew other options
  • If they participate there will be more RVR and PVP. 

We must break the existing (bad) paradigm before release. You want it too. If you want rvr and pvp. 
 

Are you guys thinking anything about the long run?

Making RvR fun, sure, that's great. I believe it's good as is but the problem being server population.

Therefor my question. What is your plan to keep those new players? I see people giving up after a few ranks. And I believe it's due to lack of content which begins to show somewhere just above the mid ranks.

More interesting OW content would be great, even for us who have been around since before 19th january 2016.

More events, better loot, funnier missions - w h a t e v e r floats.

I have lost some friends to inactivity cause you completely overhauled and hauled away the loot tables. Why you even changed that in first place is questionable.

And that's also a problem I see.

You tend to fix stuff that isn't really broken and when asked for a small tweak we get a massive change. Economy was one for example. To put it short, we asked for cheaper ship crafting and you gave us greatly increased mission rewards leading to nothing but an extra digit in the prices. What you could've done instead was making crafting materials more readily available and reducing labor hours to craft new ships which ultimately would've lead to cheaper ships in the end. All or nothing is the general opinion about most of your decisions.

Edited by Rigge1988
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Most respectfully - please desist for now, focus on the UI and quality of life enhancements.

Mods - very hard to get and require massive pve grind

new players vs old players - the ladder is too steep, that may cause discouragement, new players leaving

port upkeep - remove the requirement to pay port upkeep, instead let these ports generate an income not related to human activity, this alone will encourage people to go out and get ports?

I'm sure there are more very basic things that would make NA a better game without upsetting the entire player base.

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All community speaks as one? Never thought i see this. But have to agree. Last two patches in my opinion are step backwards - merge and now Victory Marks. Few good players from EU stop playing already - those who came from global maybe balance population but question: is that what you wanted? And recent changes - favor strong, big and multi time zones clans and players with huge amount of free time for playing.

A list of 10 essential changes i collected last few weeks from players (i picked from many many more):

 

1

Make proper pirate mechanics, let them raid ports, exclude them from RvR, limit ships they can sail (building limit will not work since alt problem)

 

2

Fix demasting – at this stage we have situations than one meta skilled player can demast 10 players in bigger ships and kite them by sniper shoot top masts. Nonsense.

 

3

Limit upgrades stack. Only one upgrade for certain effects. For example one mod for speed, one for reload or one for turning.

 

4

Sever merge – very bad idea. There is no solution for people from different time zones. Full server population is essential before even think about merge. Instead devs decided to implement this recently with very low population causing even more population drop.

 

5

Wasa – ship from combat marks. Need rebalance and make as all ship – crafteable.

 

6

Alt and PvP Rewards

System who promoting farming PvP marks – PvP rewards giving a quite big advance in combat. Those who got them faster they have easier after. Not believe that all PvP marks here are gain fair. More likely by farming or agreement fights. Remove them complety!

 

7

Add more content into game. There is a lot suggestions on forums just pick best one and let them test it. Since nearly two years we got very limited variety of content in game.

 

8

Advertise game and make it more user friendly – tutorial,UI and website.

 

9

And finally fix bug with OW npc sailing into land – why this is not fixed so long. Such a shame bug.

 

10

Stop doing backwards steps in development

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