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4 minutes ago, Malachy said:

The Danes themselves were not a threat. They were buckling to napoleons pressure and the Royal Navy didn't want the French to get their hands on the Dane Navy. So they attacked and sank or captured the whole works. The Danes were never a threat in themselves, the British were more concerned what the French could do with those ships. The only navies that mattered in that whole 50 years of conflict was the British, French, Spanish, and for a short while at the end, the US.

That's a matter of opinion.  The Danes themselves may not have been a threat, but their fleet was, which is Danish, which makes the Danes dangerous, if you follow me.  The British came twice for the Danes.  As if once wasn't enough.  Another naval alliance like that of Spain and France leading up to Trafalgar would have put the British in a bad position.  Even if the British could have had a favorable outlook, there was the Russian Imperial Fleet to contend with as well.  All three navies combined, not to mention the death of Britain's greatest admiral at Trafalgar, could have had dire consequences for the Brits in the war.    That's a lot of what ifs though.  My end point is, if the British saw fit to take them out of the war, they were a threat.  Period.

As for the only navies that mattered, I believe the Portuguese would like a word with you.  The Royal Navy may have handled much of the workload, but Portugal supplemented the British navy in the Channel and Mediterranean throughout much of this portion of the period.

Sidenote:  This is getting far off-topic.  Let's agree to disagree on our separate points of view and get back on track and talk about American ships, yeah?

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USS North Carolina, American 94 Gun Ship of the Line, 1820 Launch, 1824 Commission     The USS North Carolina was an American, 94 Gun, Ship of the Line which was launched on

I just had to hide a whole bunch of stuff that was wildly off topic.  You are discussing an American ship of the line.  To the point that there are only two American ships in the game, that is only by

/rolleyes The US proved itself a threat to "lone frigates of the largest naval power of the time." You think no one had ever taken a British frigate before? And did the British also "mutilat

40 minutes ago, Malachy said:

The US proved itself a threat to the largest naval power of the time, so much so that the British had to mutilate a bunch of their 64s in order to attempt to combat this threat in the short term and completely changed their ship building doctrine in the long term. The conflict did not last long enough to prove whether the mutilated 64s would prove capable to the task however. From that point forward British naval power receded and US naval power ascended to the point that the British refused to allocate warships to assist the confederates, who they were extremely friendly to and assisted in other ways during the civil war.

/rolleyes

The US proved itself a threat to "lone frigates of the largest naval power of the time." You think no one had ever taken a British frigate before?

And did the British also "mutilate" a 64 when Indefatigable became one of the most decorated frigates in the navy, and the only frigate to destroy a ship of the line?

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From that point forward British naval power receded and US naval power ascended to the point that the British refused to allocate warships to assist the confederates, who they were extremely friendly to and assisted in other ways during the civil war.

British naval power receded? You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

The British didn't refrain from going to war with the United States because they were scared of our navy...

And the USN was downright anemic for much of the 19th Century, while Britain was running a global empire...

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We have a wide and varied range of ships to play with, some are milestones in Naval shipbuilding, some are famous for battles they fought in, others had less distinguished careers,  but they all deserve their place in game. I think that if the USS North Carolina fits into the timeframe and was the United States first SOL then she should take her place among her peers. When compared age wise, and experience wise, the USN was a mere fledgling among navy's, and given that the 'old world' fleets, The Portuguese, French, Spanish and British navy's  were projecting sea power hundreds of years before America existed, (the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians were projecting sea power before they even became Nations, even before the UK, and France became nations), they actually acquitted themselves very well. So yes by all means include her, she was after all a milestone in both her country's Naval history and the  World's naval history. 

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Just now, Sir Lancelot Holland said:

We have a wide and varied range of ships to play with, some are milestones in Naval shipbuilding, some are famous for battles they fought in, others had less distinguished careers,  but they all deserve their place in game. I think that if the USS North Carolina fits into the timeframe and was the United States first SOL then she should take her place among her peers. When compared age wise, and experience wise, the USN was a mere fledgling among navy's, and given that the 'old world' fleets, The Portuguese, French, Spanish and British navy's  were projecting sea power hundreds of years before America existed, (the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians were projecting sea power before they even became Nations, even before the UK, and France became nations), they actually acquitted themselves very well. So yes by all means include her, she was after all a milestone in both her country's Naval history and the  World's naval history. 

Well said.

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46 minutes ago, Sir Lancelot Holland said:

 I think that if the USS North Carolina fits into the timeframe and was the United States first SOL...

The only claim to fame the North Carolina has is as a symbol of projected American naval power in the Mediterranean and Pacific Squadrons.  None of the American line ships saw any real combat, though at least one, the Independence, was involved in the conflict with the Barbary States and the War with Mexico. 

The first American ship of the line depends on what you view as American.  If you include the Continental Navy, it was the USS America.  If we're discussing the United States Navy, it was the USS Independence.

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2 hours ago, maturin said:

/rolleyes

The US proved itself a threat to "lone frigates of the largest naval power of the time." You think no one had ever taken a British frigate before?

And did the British also "mutilate" a 64 when Indefatigable became one of the most decorated frigates in the navy, and the only frigate to destroy a ship of the line?

British naval power receded? You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

The British didn't refrain from going to war with the United States because they were scared of our navy...

And the USN was downright anemic for much of the 19th Century, while Britain was running a global empire...

After the napoleonic wars, British naval power receded dramatically to the point when ww1 kicked off, it was barely an afterthought. While that was happening the "anemic" us navy was flexing its muscles and projecting its power further afield. The US navy had the most state of the art and modern warships of the era and us naval technology was superior to anything anyone else fielded at the time. And by the civil war, after getting their arse handed to them twice, they were wise to leave well enough alone. During the war of 1812, the British were quite apprehensive about the capabilities of the new super frigates, and rightly so. The admiralty was pissing their pants when they discovered the capabilities of the Connie and her consorts. You don't totally restructure your shipbuilding philosophy and modify your current ships just for the fun of it. The Ghent treaty came too early for me, I would have liked to have seen some more action between our two nations. 

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8 minutes ago, Malachy said:

After the napoleonic wars, British naval power receded dramatically to the point when ww1 kicked off, it was barely an afterthought. While that was happening the "anemic" us navy was flexing its muscles and projecting its power further afield. The US navy had the most state of the art and modern warships of the era and us naval technology was superior to anything anyone else fielded at the time. And by the civil war, after getting their arse handed to them twice, they were wise to leave well enough alone. During the war of 1812, the British were quite apprehensive about the capabilities of the new super frigates, and rightly so. The Versailles treaty came too early for me, I would have liked o have seen some more action between our two nations. 

I'm curious what history books you're reading to come to this conclusion.  I've clashed with maturin from time to time before over some things, but there's no denying the man's spent a LOT of time researching.  He knows his stuff probably better than anyone here.  That being said, I don't understand where you get "After the napoleonic wars, British naval power receded dramatically to the point when ww1 kicked off, it was barely an afterthought." and "getting their arse handed to them twice".  The British Navy continued to be the world's foremost naval power until World War II.   On top of that, we didn't exactly win the War of 1812.  If anything, we lost that war.  At best it was a stalemate.  

More action?  Both times the British went to war with the Americans, they were forced at some point or another to spread their resources out to protect other parts of the Empire.  The War of 1812 coincided with the Napoleonic Wars.   Her resources were spread thin across various theaters.  Bear in mind, the army that sacked Washington D.C. came over from the war in Europe.  Those were Peninsular Campaign veterans.  It was because of the end of the Napoleonic War that the British Navy was able to devote more of its navy to blockading our coastlines.  I don't want to think about Wellington campaigning in the States.  Maybe we could have won, maybe we would have lost.  Best not to contemplate it.

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24 minutes ago, Haratik said:

I'm curious what history books you're reading to come to this conclusion.  I've clashed with maturin from time to time before over some things, but there's no denying the man's spent a LOT of time researching.  He knows his stuff probably better than anyone here.  That being said, I don't understand where you get "After the napoleonic wars, British naval power receded dramatically to the point when ww1 kicked off, it was barely an afterthought." and "getting their arse handed to them twice".  The British Navy continued to be the world's foremost naval power until World War II.   On top of that, we didn't exactly win the War of 1812.  If anything, we lost that war.  At best it was a stalemate.  

More action?  Both times the British went to war with the Americans, they were forced at some point or another to spread their resources out to protect other parts of the Empire.  The War of 1812 coincided with the Napoleonic Wars.   Her resources were spread thin across various theaters.  Bear in mind, the army that sacked Washington D.C. came over from the war in Europe.  Those were Peninsular Campaign veterans.  It was because of the end of the Napoleonic War that the British Navy was able to devote more of its navy to blockading our coastlines.  I don't want to think about Wellington campaigning in the States.  Maybe we could have won, maybe we would have lost.  Best not to contemplate it.

The British lost the war of 1812. It was their own fault it got started. If you can't handle the heat you shouldn't piss off more people than you can handle. You don't capitulate to all demands when suing for peace when you win lol. And after early successes, the British army again lost its US campaign.  The British lost the revolutionary war with the US as well FYI. Hence twice. I'll give them one thing, they were smart enough to see the writing on the wall and get out of the war with the US as fast as possible. Had it continued, superior US warships would have continued to pick off British warships and merchantmen one at a time,  and at the time there was also talk of taking the island colonies from England as well. The US intervention in Ww1 and again in WW2 is the only reason the English aren't speaking German now. The napoleonic wars was the beginning of the end of the British empire and their navy declined with them. From the early 1800s on, not a single navy in the world had state of the art warships like the US fielded. Even the British attempts after the war weren't nearly as powerful as the US counterparts... I.E. the trincomalee was supposed to be a heavy frigate. She's not even close to as powerful as American heavy frigates heh. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Malachy said:

The British lost the war of 1812. It was their own fault it got started. If you can't handle the heat you shouldn't piss off more people than you can handle. You don't capitulate to all demands when suing for peace when you win lol. And after early successes, the British army again lost its US campaign.  The British lost the revolutionary war with the US as well FYI. Hence twice. I'll give them one thing, they were smart enough to see the writing on the wall and get out of the war with the US as fast as possible. Had it continued, superior US warships would have continued to pick off British warships and merchantmen one at a time,  and at the time there was also talk of taking the island colonies from England as well. The US intervention in Ww1 and again in WW2 is the only reason the English aren't speaking German now. The napoleonic wars was the beginning of the end of the British empire and their navy declined with them. From the early 1800s on, not a single navy in the world had state of the art warships like the US fielded. Even the British attempts after the war weren't nearly as powerful as the US counterparts... I.E. the trincomalee was supposed to be a heavy frigate. She's not even close to as powerful as American heavy frigates heh. 

 

Wow. So much nonsense in a single post. Remarkable.

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1 minute ago, Malachi said:

Wow. So much nonsense in a single post. Remarkable.

My guess is he's read some very biased American literature, which I can believe because I used to think along similar lines.  Only conjecture of course, he's yet to reply to my query about what books he's been reading to come to his conclusions.

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4 hours ago, Malachy said:

Actually, the us became a naval power during the war of 1812....and Denmark was totally decimated by the Royal Navy and wasn't a power anymore 

Actually the US didn't.. Even with the battle against Napoleon and the french fleet - a worthy opponent the brits still managed to defeat the US and basically ruin the US economy forcing the matter to a standstill. The US wasn't a real naval power untill the invention of the dreadnoughts and even then it wasn't untill the second world war that the US had a navy that could compare itself to the european powers.

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Back on the US SOL topic - Wasn't the issue with the USS North Carolina the armament. Wasn't she actually put in ordinary for a few years before being fitted out and then given columbiads which aren't even in the game, so technically she is out of the timeline?  Not against US SOL - Just that there are earlier 74s which would be better suited to get in game, settging aside the argument that some nations (Dutch) are severely underrepresented. 

 

BTW @maturin Don't forget Indefatigable had the assistance of HMS Amazon, the weather and the less than laser accuracy of the French gunnery. ;)

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2 hours ago, DeRuyter said:

Back on the US SOL topic - Wasn't the issue with the USS North Carolina the armament. Wasn't she actually put in ordinary for a few years before being fitted out and then given columbiads which aren't even in the game, so technically she is out of the timeline?  Not against US SOL - Just that there are earlier 74s which would be better suited to get in game, settging aside the argument that some nations (Dutch) are severely underrepresented.

I can't recall which US line ship had columbiads, maybe Ohio?  I know Vermont and Pennsylvania had shell guns, which are not an option.  Like you I think one of the earlier 74s would be more realistic.

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7 hours ago, Haratik said:

The only claim to fame the North Carolina has is as a symbol of projected American naval power in the Mediterranean and Pacific Squadrons.  None of the American line ships saw any real combat, though at least one, the Independence, was involved in the conflict with the Barbary States and the War with Mexico. 

The first American ship of the line depends on what you view as American.  If you include the Continental Navy, it was the USS America.  If we're discussing the United States Navy, it was the USS Independence.

Maybe so Sir, but then the only claim to fame HMS Victory and the USS Constitution have was a single battle, The ships you have named all set a milestone in Naval history, for one reason or another, as for never seeing combat, that applies to an overwhelming number of warships over the centuries. As far as symbols of power projection go, USS North Carolina was little different from HMS Hood, or HMS Ark Royal, Or today's Nimitz class carriers, excepting the fact Hood's end was far more dramatic and devastating to her Nation. 

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I dont see a problem to have an american 1 rate ship in the game. we have so much vessels at the moment in the lower rates but only a few first rates. and it should not be a problem to tune her so that she fits into the game. my respect to Mr. Eden to start such a discussion here in the Forum.

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I just had to hide a whole bunch of stuff that was wildly off topic.  You are discussing an American ship of the line.  To the point that there are only two American ships in the game, that is only by a very strict reading of the term "ship."  You're forgetting all of the other vessels which are American.  The Lynx, the Brig (Fair American), the Niagara, the Rattlesnake, and the Prince de Neufchatel are all American.

Edit:  Alert was a Brit.

Edited by Powderhorn
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7 hours ago, Sir Lancelot Holland said:

Maybe so Sir, but then the only claim to fame HMS Victory and the USS Constitution have was a single battle, The ships you have named all set a milestone in Naval history, for one reason or another, as for never seeing combat, that applies to an overwhelming number of warships over the centuries. As far as symbols of power projection go, USS North Carolina was little different from HMS Hood, or HMS Ark Royal, Or today's Nimitz class carriers, excepting the fact Hood's end was far more dramatic and devastating to her Nation. 

Alright, let's get a brief summary on both ships.

USS Constitution:

Emerged on the international scene with the capture of HMS Guerriere, in which her construction and the account of the battle gave her her name (Old Ironsides) for the ages, she first saw combat more than a decade before the War of 1812 during the Quasi -War with France, then participated in the First Barbary War.  While her claim to fame is the battle with HMS Guerriere, she also captured the HMS Java and many other prizes leading up to and after the event.  She also sailed to the Paris Exposition in 1878, forced to stay over for the rest of the year after colliding with the former ship of the line Ville de Paris while docking in Le Havre.  She is also the only ship of her period, to my knowledge, that can still sail under her own power, a claim to fame that even Victory cannot match.

That's two claims to fame for a single ship, I believe.  Now let's list her combat record:

Victories/Prizes Claimed (in order of timeline):

Quasi-War:
24 gun Niger (was eventually released as she was captured under questionable circumstances)
Spencer (merchantman captured from the British by the French; released after a day)
Neutrality (American sloop recovered after capture from the French)
Carteret (French ship of unknown size)
Amelia (French prize ship)
Sally (French sloop)
Sandwich (French privateer, returned to France at a later date)

First Barbary War:
2 unnamed Greek grain merchants bound for Tripoli
Xebec of Tripoline origin plus two prize vessels

War of 1812:
3 merchantmen
HMS Guerriere (38 gun frigate)
HMS Java (38 gun frigate)
5 merchantmen
HMS Pictou (14 gun vessel)
Lord Nelson (merchantman)
Susanna (merchantman)
HMS Cyane (22 gun sixth rate)
HMS Levant (20 gun sixth rate, later recaptured by the British)

Now I don't know about you, but I believe that's more than a single battle for Old Ironsides to be recognized for what she is.  A solid combat record and still able, long after ships of her type were expected to be in service, to be able to sail under her own power.  Just a bit of history for you. :)

I'm not going to wax as poetic on Victory, but I'll refer to the battles she participated before Trafalgar, as well as her length of service.  She may have been made famous by the man who commanded her during Trafalgar, but as a first rated vessel in British service, Victory saw combat in the same year she was commissioned (1778), her last battle being in 1805 (Trafalgar).  She participated in both the First and Second Battle of Ushant, the Siege of Gibraltar, the Battle of Cape St. Vincent, and finally Trafalgar.  A number of well known British admirals other than Nelson raised their flags aboard her as well.  She also faced her general equals in rating more often than the Constitution did, weathering a greater weight of iron and hellfire on a number of occasions.

Victory more so than the Constitution may have only one claim to fame, depending on how you look at it, but the Victory can also claim to have survived German bombing raids during World War II, something Constitution cannot.  She was also damaged by a bomb dropped by the Luftwaffe in 1941.

In comparison, the American line-ships, at least most of them, spent the majority of their time in ordinary or on the stocks.  Very few saw service outside of American waters, and none of them ever fought their equals in battle.  If their only claim to fame is sailing qualities, their staggering armament for their time (a much discussed topic that is spoken about with derision at times), and being able to serve outside of home waters, then so be it, but I cannot really get on board with any of the American ships of the line.  If we were going off looks alone, I'd champion the America, the 1799 Proposal, Franklin, or the Independence.
 

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11 hours ago, Powderhorn said:

I just had to hide a whole bunch of stuff that was wildly off topic.  You are discussing an American ship of the line.  To the point that there are only two American ships in the game, that is only by a very strict reading of the term "ship."  You're forgetting all of the other vessels which are American.  The Lynx, the Brig (Fair American), the Niagara, the Rattlesnake, and the Prince de Neufchatel are all American.

Edit:  Alert was a Brit.

Yes, this is correct, however, my objective of this post was to bring to the limelight the lack of heavy American ships. The Americans have one, whereas the British, French and most all other nations severely outgun American ships for someone who just wants to use American ships. The USS Constitution and USS Essex are really cool, and you folks as developers have done an astonishing job at siphoning out the ships that are unnecessary. This being said, I chose the North Carolina for a couple of reasons: The first being that it's one of the only American ships at the time which was actually active in the class which could be considered a first-rate in comparison with the Victory, L'Ocean, and Santisima(though those ships are indeed built to the actual standards and gunnage of first-rates). Second, it's not a ship which was, in comparison to the USS Essex, captured, or in the case of the USS America, crafted simply to be given to the French. In regards to the USS North Carolina, it's one of the only American 1st rates ever built, and furthermore, the USS North Carolina was one of the first ships to begin the creation of treaties with Turkey and in the Mediterranian in general. I know the time-frame seems to be stretched towards the late 1820's, however, and I know this is extending my claim, the Mercury is still one of the latest ships in the game, which would put this ship in launching with the Mercury at almost the same time. My only objective is to offer a solution to the lack of an American first rate. I'd be more than willing to listen to any topic on the addition of a ship for the Americans which is larger than the USS Constitution and in some ways a 3rd, 2nd, or 1st rate ship. 

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Yes, this is correct, however, my objective of this post was to bring to the limelight the lack of heavy American ships. The Americans have one, whereas the British, French and most all other nations severely outgun American ships for someone who just wants to use American ships.

You'll not find much sympathy from the fair-minded. There are seven U.S. vessels in the game.

The poor Spaniards have one ugly whale of a ship and not a single frigate, while the Dutch have nothing.

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34 minutes ago, maturin said:

You'll not find much sympathy from the fair-minded. There are seven U.S. vessels in the game.

The poor Spaniards have one ugly whale of a ship and not a single frigate, while the Dutch have nothing.

Just a question, but have the Spanish petitioned for new ships? Their ships have been around forever. It makes me curious as to why they've only been allocated one "ugly whale of a ship.." I'm not trying to be an ass, I am actually confused.

Edited by President John Henry Eden
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47 minutes ago, President John Henry Eden said:

Just a question, but have the Spanish petitioned for new ships? Their ships have been around forever. It makes me curious as to why they've only been allocated one "ugly whale of a ship.." I'm not trying to be an ass, I am actually confused.

Well, the Montañes has been selected in the latest player poll, so in all likelihood we'll have a pretty powerful Spanish ship sometime soon. 74 gunner with a broadside weight equal to the St Pavel, 13-14 kts with the wind and good maneuverability (someone posted a quote supposedly from Nelson himself saying the ship "sailed like a frigate and fought like a 1st rate").

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54 minutes ago, Kartaugh said:

Well, the Montañes has been selected in the latest player poll, so in all likelihood we'll have a pretty powerful Spanish ship sometime soon. 74 gunner with a broadside weight equal to the St Pavel, 13-14 kts with the wind and good maneuverability (someone posted a quote supposedly from Nelson himself saying the ship "sailed like a frigate and fought like a 1st rate").

Nice. Congratulations to the Spanish. Hopefully we'll be as successful with this one. 

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2 hours ago, Kartaugh said:

Well, the Montañes has been selected in the latest player poll, so in all likelihood we'll have a pretty powerful Spanish ship sometime soon. 74 gunner with a broadside weight equal to the St Pavel, 13-14 kts with the wind and good maneuverability (someone posted a quote supposedly from Nelson himself saying the ship "sailed like a frigate and fought like a 1st rate").

Nothing has been finalized yet.  Poll is still open and staff have yet to call final results.  Also, sometime soon = sometime next year, probably summer or fall, seeing as how other ships that have been voted in in previous polls still aren't out yet.

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39 minutes ago, Haratik said:

Nothing has been finalized yet.  Poll is still open and staff have yet to call final results.  Also, sometime soon = sometime next year, probably summer or fall, seeing as how other ships that have been voted in in previous polls still aren't out yet.

Small steps Ellie...small steps.

 

^_^

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