Bring back multiple durability

[George Washington]

24 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

What do you mean ? The dividing the several tasks in several cruises across several playing sessions ? Of course it is done. Every day in so many games. No rush, just appreciating the experience.

Reckon some are marathonists and others are sprinters. Oh boy, how to have choices is great

This can easily be figured out to prove time sink design will fail in such a big open world. All we need is sand in 2 different colors. Lets say normal sand color and red. 

-1 Bag of (Normal) sand will equal to world size. Fill 1 Bucket (5gal). 

-1 Bag of (Red) sand will equal for player amount actually sailing and not in battle/port. Fill 1 Glass

Now pour a glass of red sand into a bucket of normal sand and mix it well. Can you tell me if you will see red after you mix?

Ok now on top of that add more normal sand about (2/4 of a bucket) for (battles/port activity/mod gathering/moving etc). This extra sand = no players on OS = no pvp. This extra sand is not benefiting the mixture as bucket is already full. 

Just think about this concept there is more to it, I can't write it all.

Also, What happens to red sand if you keep mixing?

If you can figure out how to make equal mixture then you will succeed. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by George Washington

[Christendom]

honestly it's not the duras on the ships that is the problem here, it's just the scarcity of the mods.  

Copper plating  - used to be craftable, now you must play to the RNG gods to get one or pay several mils to acquire.  - stupid
Bovin - required materials in a certain port/area.  
Carta Caulking - same as above, but ONLY in 1 port or random RNG drops.  You need an alt or good friends/deep pockets to get
Crooked hull - little easier, still only in certain areas.
PVP mods - good luck getting pvp marks.

At the start of the wipe the ships were 1 dura and difficult to craft.  This drove folks away.  Luckily that changed up a bit and ships/cannons are no longer an issue to lose.  The mods however are a real pain in the ass to acquire if you are not fortunate enough to be in certain regions, have alts or deep pockets.  It makes almost zero sense why mods were craftable back when ships had multiple duras, but now that ships don't the mods aren't craftable either. 

Keep ships single dura.  Make more mods either craftable with more readily available resources (like carta tar can be purchased with combat marks) or make the mods be multi use and have a limited amount of charges. 

TLDR - you shouldn't need to equip a ship with serval millions of gold just to go fast.  

[Malachy]

12 minutes ago, Christendom said:

honestly it's not the duras on the ships that is the problem here, it's just the scarcity of the mods.  

Copper plating  - used to be craftable, now you must play to the RNG gods to get one or pay several mils to acquire.  - stupid
Bovin - required materials in a certain port/area.  
Carta Caulking - same as above, but ONLY in 1 port or random RNG drops.  You need an alt or good friends/deep pockets to get
Crooked hull - little easier, still only in certain areas.
PVP mods - good luck getting pvp marks.

At the start of the wipe the ships were 1 dura and difficult to craft.  This drove folks away.  Luckily that changed up a bit and ships/cannons are no longer an issue to lose.  The mods however are a real pain in the ass to acquire if you are not fortunate enough to be in certain regions, have alts or deep pockets.  It makes almost zero sense why mods were craftable back when ships had multiple duras, but now that ships don't the mods aren't craftable either. 

Keep ships single dura.  Make more mods either craftable with more readily available resources (like carta tar can be purchased with combat marks) or make the mods be multi use and have a limited amount of charges. 

TLDR - you shouldn't need to equip a ship with serval millions of gold just to go fast.  

That still doesn't solve the time to return to battle. We still don't have near enough hulls to sustain pvp efforts for more than an hour or two. I'm looking for a solution for that problem. Mods being too rare is another problem entirely.

[Preechur Blackheart]

This is a fascinating discussion, with points on both sides. I land on the side of multiple durabilities, simply because it would increase the likelihood that lesser players would engage in PvP more, which we all want to happen. Maybe it shouldn't be this way, but the replacement of ships lost in PvP IS a DISINCENTIVE for players early in their development to take the risk. Lessen the risk, increase the desired behavior. Worth trying, anyway...I know the variables are different for the players with the most skill and experience, but I remember the days when we had multiple duras, and how much more willing I was to engage in battle.

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

That still doesn't solve the time to return to battle. We still don't have near enough hulls to sustain pvp efforts for more than an hour or two.

When OW first launched your quote was the rationale or design idea behind multiple duras. The quote in my sig is from the same period after a test of single dura ships. The focus from the start was to make a PvP centric game. I agree with the eco boys when they say that multiple duras doesn't make sense for the economy.

PvP priorities held the economy hostage, and God saw that it was good.

There was a snake in the PvP garden and you know how that story goes... PvP was cast out into the wilderness by the snake Eco. The garden was declared a safe zone and was renamed PvEden. The snake made everyone toil in the dirt by the sweat of their brows to serve his purpose, PvE and eco grind as he named it. The snake hated the beautiful thing God had created, PvP. God had created PvP so players could have fun and be fulfilled. The snake had come to steal, murder and destroy God's divine intentions for player-kind. 

He whispered in their ears: "You don't really want to fight, do you? Think of all the hard work you will have to suffer if you lose. God made PvP to make you suffer. Stay here and grind my little bot demons, I will give you rare loot drop upgrades to protect you from the evil PvP. They will enable you to run, hit harder or shield you from harm. Eco makes stuff matter."

Soon the snake Eco had enslaved the entire server with his perverted lies.

...

There was s cry from the desert, "PvP Messiah will come to set you free. He will cast away the snake Eco and enable you to play for fun."

And he said unto them "PvP is fun, PvP is life. Turn away from your life of boring eco activities and joyless bot grinding and do PvP unto your fellow player."

This is the PvP gospel according to jodgi.

I thought it'd be good for you to know who your real enemy is, Malachy. I see you fighting the good fight, just don't lose sight of the root of the problem.

Today PvP is held hostage by eco.

#PvEvil #PvEnslaved #breakEcochains #PvPsaves #BeAllYouCanPvP

[Rigge1988]

Yes please. So I can go out and do the most stupid stuff without any punishment. And when I have my 1 dura left I just equip it with 4pd medium cannons and go out yolo-style.

/irony.

If this comes back even the slightest I'd be the one slamming the door behind me. And I know quite a handful of players going out the same way.

#edit: Also. Hint. Some of my friends are already leaving. Cause the loot tables are FUBAR. It would take you literally 5 million years to farm for gunnery encyclopedia, art of ship handling and book of five rings. You hear about one of 550 players looting a copper plating or cartagena caulking refit once a week.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Rigge1988

[Malachy]

I was in a fight tonight. Up against a frigate, surprise, 2 belle poule fleet ships and a merc. Was in a light Connie and had a prince partner. We sank the merc, then worked over sails on the npc ships. The two players hid behind the npc ships so I started to sink the fleets. They ran and disengaged, despite having inexpensive ships that had more firepower and armor than both of us combined. They absolutely refused to fight and they had the advantage in numbers, firepower, etc. why? They didn't want to risk their one durability even in cheap ships. If the situation was reversed, I would have engaged balls to the wall and wouldn't have had the npc ships to back me up. This mentality is only encouraged by the 1 durability mechanic. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Malachy

[Slim McSauce]

10 minutes ago, Malachy said:

I was in a fight tonight. Up against a frigate, surprise, 2 belle poule fleet ships and a merc. Was in a light Connie and had a prince partner. We sank the merc, then worked over sails on the npc ships. The two players hid behind the npc ships so I started to sink the fleets. They ran and disengaged, despite having inexpensive ships that had more firepower and armor than both of us combined. They absolutely refused to fight and they had the advantage in numbers, firepower, etc. why? They didn't want to risk their one durability even in cheap ships. If the situation was reversed, I would have engaged balls to the wall and wouldn't have had the npc ships to back me up. This mentality is only encouraged by the 1 durability mechanic. 

That's not a 1 dura mentality, that's some newbs with fleet ships who are just dipping their toes into OW PVP. With rewards how they are, only 1 will get the kill credit and the other the measly assist, while risking all their fleet ships which probably cost more than the ships they themselves are sailing.

People don't want to lose in general. If players can run away instead of fighting what they think is a losing battle they will. It's not about ship duras or really ships themselves. In the current game environment running away is 10:1 more common than losing a battle. This can only be fixed with changes to the meta and the way battles are set up. 
Captains need to build up confidence before they feel comfortable engaging even odds, if OW PVP was more accessible and not such a rarity that it is on global and somewhat with EU, then these players could build the courage required to confidently put your ship and skills against another players ships and skills.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Malachy]

31 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

That's not a 1 dura mentality, that's some newbs with fleet ships who are just dipping their toes into OW PVP. With rewards how they are, only 1 will get the kill credit and the other the measly assist, while risking all their fleet ships which probably cost more than the ships they themselves are sailing.

People don't want to lose in general. If players can run away instead of fighting what they think is a losing battle they will. It's not about ship duras or really ships themselves. In the current game environment running away is 10:1 more common than losing a battle. This can only be fixed with changes to the meta and the way battles are set up. 
Captains need to build up confidence before they feel comfortable engaging even odds, if OW PVP was more accessible and not such a rarity that it is on global and somewhat with EU, then these players could build the courage required to confidently put your ship and skills against another players ships and skills.

These were experienced captains, one is very well known in pvp circles) I don't want to embarrass him because he's not Batman.... the one with the fleet ships was an rsc member, and seemed the most noobish. They lost the fleet ships anyhow when they exited and then promptly sat inside the green zones or an hour with 4 others. There was only the two of us and we sailed well to the south, came back an hour later and these guys were still sitting in the green zone lol. The only thing I can think of would be fear of losing their ships.... I did take top masts off all of them, so maybe they got worried by that? I dunno, but maybe if they didn't lose their ships when I Kill them, they might be more willing to fight? That's how it used to work anyhow lol. And had they fought, there was a good bet they could have swamped me if they ignored the prince lol, I was in my fir/Bermuda Connie that has seen 221 battles since the wipe. I've been trying to get her to die for a long time as I want to replace with a fir/teak.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Malachy

[Slim McSauce]

54 minutes ago, Malachy said:

These were experienced captains, one is very well known in pvp circles) I don't want to embarrass him because he's not Batman.... the one with the fleet ships was an rsc member, and seemed the most noobish. They lost the fleet ships anyhow when they exited and then promptly sat inside the green zones or an hour with 4 others. There was only the two of us and we sailed well to the south, came back an hour later and these guys were still sitting in the green zone lol. The only thing I can think of would be fear of losing their ships.... I did take top masts off all of them, so maybe they got worried by that? I dunno, but maybe if they didn't lose their ships when I Kill them, they might be more willing to fight? That's how it used to work anyhow lol. And had they fought, there was a good bet they could have swamped me if they ignored the prince lol, I was in my fir/Bermuda Connie that has seen 221 battles since the wipe. I've been trying to get her to die for a long time as I want to replace with a fir/teak.

Well that's the issue, you're way more experienced than those two, and they probably realized that when you sniped their mast and sunk their merc.
Your use to is before a lot of players time, more recently we saw a huge surge in PVP when there was things to fight for, like US taking S Georgia so they could make long cannons early into wipe. That was only with maybe 250 people on the server and the game was at its most hardcore, before notes, combat news and captured ships

Figuratively speaking, if multi duras were to return, it wouldn't do much to promote PVP as much as real incentives do, and it would end up being a regrettable change to a less realistic, more gamey way of solving PVP issues.

A little extra, here's a screenie from the early days of post wipe. This is the US nation venturing, new and old players alike together to defend the capital from invading rat fleets. This was before clan owned ports and massive safezones to protect capitals. Every defensive action was done by the captains of the US.

oo

Only in the face of destruction will players put themselves on the line for victory.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Yngvarr]

In my humble opinion...

Certain wood types, materials, upgrades and refits are just too rare or too hard to get.

I find it quite understandable, that with the current status of the game, beginning PVP players are not willing to risk their precious ships in battles that they are most likely to lose.

 

So either make it so the players don't lose their stuff outright, or make the stuff they need for upgrades and refits less rare.

 

[Eyesore]

Before, golden ships were insanely expensive (because of rare woods or fines, you all know),

then they lose their durability (which I liked) ... but then the devs decide to make the necessairy/obligatory upgrades extremely rare and ...

Same problem again, exept this time it is the upgrades that cost millions.

The devs now have exactly the same problem as the one they wanted to solve ... people didn't want to risk their ship, now they don't want to risk their upgrades. I think it actually hurts more now to lose your upgrades, than losing a 5 dura-ship before.

Admin even made a thread/post about it, asking about the upgrades and modules (after they saw it was an obvious problem, or maybe it was only the numerous complaints and reports), nothing came of it (or I didn't see what they changed?). (can't seem to find the thread were admin asked for opinions atm)  (Edit aswell: I think the rare woods got spawned at intervals, not only at maintenance anymore, but nothing else has changed?)

Edited November 29, 2017 by Eyesore
typo's

[jodgi]

41 minutes ago, rediii said:

Thats just a weak mechanic

Dunno about weak but I know something weird...

You gather a bunch of players who wants to fight. Then you introduce a mechanic that makes everyone default to not wanting to fight. Next you start complaining that you need a mechanic on top of previous mechanic to reverse the former mechanic's effect.

Yes, yes... "It must matter!"

You've made your bed, why complain when you have to sleep in it?

[Hethwill]

Modules fused into crafting options dropdown boxes added - planking, structure, guns/crew, masts/rigging, national/generic.

Store ships with assorted crafted mix.

Done.

Grab any ship from store. Order you favourite ship from a crafter.

Get out there and fight.

( not that shop ships atm are bad, they are good enough to rove with a couple of buddies and showing no mercy to whomever crosses the horizon )

[jodgi]

7 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Modules fused into crafting options dropdown boxes added - planking, structure, guns/crew, masts/rigging, national/generic.

Store ships with assorted crafted mix.

Done.

Grab any ship from store. Order you favourite ship from a crafter.

Get out there and fight.

This would be so beautiful!

[Powderhorn]

15 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Modules fused into crafting options dropdown boxes added - planking, structure, guns/crew, masts/rigging, national/generic.

Store ships with assorted crafted mix.

Done.

Grab any ship from store. Order you favourite ship from a crafter.

Get out there and fight.

( not that shop ships atm are bad, they are good enough to rove with a couple of buddies and showing no mercy to whomever crosses the horizon )

This.  <3

[jodgi]

8 minutes ago, rediii said:

Can you explain please? I dont understand your comment at all

Pretty much all players like to fight. Economy makes all but everyone super timid. You need rewards and whatnot to go fight. Whomever that loves eco; deal with it.

[z4ys]

34 minutes ago, rediii said:

...

That's how I fell about the game at the moment. It has to be something between 10.x and now. Challenging but not to hard. Some effort needed but not a lot. Guide players to OW and not force.

 

[Malachy]

2 hours ago, jodgi said:

This would be so beautiful!

I haven't seen a ship in the store worth using. Another problem with having crafters who have no idea what a good build is. Maybe if crafters actually pvp they would know, but the vast majority of ships in the store are absolute garbage. 

[Fargo]

26 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Pretty much all players like to fight. Economy makes all but everyone super timid. You need rewards and whatnot to go fight. Whomever that loves eco; deal with it.

Funny that if the PvP guys would be able to think out of their box, these would actually be the first arguing for a working economy. The quote in your sig is about motivation. So what is motivating people to PvP and RvR? Just cheap stuff and fast recovery? Whats the difference between PvP in NA and NAL? If an average guy just likes to fight, wouldnt he play NAL? PvP is supposed to have a purpose in NA, and a working economy would provide that. You dont PvP for fun, you fight to protect resources or to hurt the enemy economy. Meaningful gameplay, thats the major difference. PvP is the result of a functional OW environment, fixing that is the only way to make it work. And it should be obvious that this in general is what NA is supposed to offer.

Prewipe we had extremely cheap stuff already, but people did not want to fight.This could have teached us something. Instead we reached nearly the same pop again and another wipe is probably necessary if we decide to fix/balance economy. Ridiculous that all you can think about still is ceaper stuff. But i dont wonder that discussions with persons still playing this mess 10 hours a day arent productive.

If you want to improve, think about how EvE for example is able to motivate players to loose massive value in large battles. How is EvE able to keep its economy meaningful? What NA needs is serious professional game design. Pilings of opinions of players arguing selfish or not fully understanding what theyre talking about are leading nowhere. Month of time wasted with discussions about durability, not important and a simple logical decision, is a prime example. We wont ever make progress if we cant agree on 1+1=2, the most basic and fundamental stuff, and without a common picture of what final NA is supposed to look like.

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Pretty much all players like to fight. Economy makes all but everyone super timid. You need rewards and whatnot to go fight. Whomever that loves eco; deal with it.

That is not true, the vast majority of players would rather avoid a fight at all costs. This was less of a problem before the current 1 durability system but it was still there. I do have to agree that linking modules to loot rather than being able to craft from basic resources has also contributed to the problem but as I've said before,  for most people, it's mainly a logistic problem. If repairs didn't count as cargo and you could have a free teleport once an hour, 1 durability wouldn't bother me at all. It's the 1 hour of fighting to 2.5 hours of redeploying another ship if you lose that's the issue. And don't give me the "keep multiple ships around" line. when you lose several of them, then you have double, triple or quadruple the time  to redeploy. In the end, I have better things to do than waste my time in pointless time wasting exercises just because some crafters think they can make more money selling me a cheap ship multiple times than selling me an expensive ship once. And the funny thing is, I dont even buy ships because crafters have no clue how to make a decent pvp ship. In the end, crafters aren't any better off now than they were before they cried to make 1 durability ships. In fact, they've pretty much lost the end game business as most of us playing the end game find it easier to build our own ships these days than waste time with a crafter who is poorly stocked, and has no clue what they are doing. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Malachy

[Lz3]

Don't like the idea, sorry. Reasons have been mentioned here 

[Hethwill]

4 hours ago, rediii said:

Attacking routes traders go to build fleets for conquest. Raiding supplylines.

We had this very very real a while ago. It changed once the map was wiped for port clan control conquest mode and zones introduced.

The supply lines PvP was very very real and a true playstyle for the non RvR oriented privateer communities.

Human problem again got in between and blocked success - mass concentration of pvp oriented players in some nations while others struggled against the constant non stop raiding, which led to a tiredness.

[Demsity]

For the crying out loud!

You do not need the best upgrades or all 5 slots unlocked to do PVP!

Just grab, craft or buy a ship, slap some cannons on it and off you go. Sure you might be at a disadvantage but that´s an incentive to fight even harder to win.

And the rule I always follow: Don´t sail what you cannot afford to loose.

And if you have to sail a ship that you cannot afford to loose, make sure that you sail in a group.

 

People seem to forget that this is a MMO game. Being on the top takes a long ass time and some serious dedication.

[Malachy]

Just now, Demsity said:

For the crying out loud!

You do not need the best upgrades or all 5 slots unlocked to do PVP!

Just grab, craft or buy a ship, slap some cannons on it and off you go. Sure you might be at a disadvantage but that´s an incentive to fight even harder to win.

And the rule I always follow: Don´t sail what you cannot afford to loose.

And if you have to sail a ship that you cannot afford to loose, make sure that you sail in a group.

 

People seem to forget that this is a MMO game. Being on the top takes a long ass time and some serious dedication.

I guarantee you do need upgrades. There are two types of upgrades in this game, the best and those not worth using. If I come accross a good pvper of equal skill and he has no upgrades, and I am in a perfectly kitted out ship, I'm going to win because my ship is optimized for peak performance. No, you can fight without upgrades in this game. You also don't have much of a chance without them. Either the guy with upgrades is going to walk away at will, or you will be too weak in comparison and not do enough damage to win the fight.