2nd Battle of Bull Run

[Gmoney7447]

I'm having so much difficulty beating this battle without attrocious losses. Day 2 just seems impossible, I'm outnumbered 2 to 1 before the reinforcements and the union just throws their bodies into bayonets until they eventually push through. Any tips??

[Hitorishizuka]

8 hours ago, Gmoney7447 said:

I'm having so much difficulty beating this battle without attrocious losses. Day 2 just seems impossible, I'm outnumbered 2 to 1 before the reinforcements and the union just throws their bodies into bayonets until they eventually push through. Any tips??

Hard without knowing exactly what the state of your army is going in and how that also could be influencing things.

In general, don't use the fortifications, pull everyone back to the treeline, and just turtle it out for most of Day 1. You can get cheeky and probe out with cavalry on the western side and maybe sneak snipers all the way around to the back to start working on enemy artillery but IMO their attacks just don't get that serious. Back your forces up with cannons with good canisters right in the center opposing the wheatfield/nearish to the VP and you should repel all the serious attacks.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Hitorishizuka

[dutmistrz]

11 hours ago, Hitorishizuka said:

Hard without knowing exactly what the state of your army is going in and how that also could be influencing things.

I agree, just let know how many brigades you bring in the battle and how many men they have in average.

2nd Bull Run (played on BG difficulty), I suppose on MG it's much harder, was quite easy. Just know that 1st attacks are always north along Sudley Ford, I kept my best shooters there (Stonewall Brigade - always naming my most experienced brigade as CSA ) along with a couple of other rifle (not musket!) brigades held the ground.

2nd day was just a mop-up, flanking manuever from the right flank units did the job. 

By throwing bodies into bayonets I presume that charges are being troublesome, remeber to use the M42, Palmetto or Farmer for the melee and always try to keep a reserve brigade (I use 1 brigade for 3-4 brigades as a backup) or arty near (best both) to prevail the charges without breaking the line (AI seldomly coordinates the charges properly, although got better at that after recent patches). 

Always try to keep the line , use skirmirshers and terrain and it will turn out great Unless you brought 25 500-1000 men infantry brigades  to the battle, there is little for that. 

I think it may be a corps composition issue indeed, the more I'm looking forward to Gmoney7447 reply

 

[Gmoney7447]

5 hours ago, dutmistrz said:

I agree, just let know how many brigades you bring in the battle and how many men they have in average.

2nd Bull Run (played on BG difficulty), I suppose on MG it's much harder, was quite easy. Just know that 1st attacks are always north along Sudley Ford, I kept my best shooters there (Stonewall Brigade - always naming my most experienced brigade as CSA ) along with a couple of other rifle (not musket!) brigades held the ground.

2nd day was just a mop-up, flanking manuever from the right flank units did the job. 

By throwing bodies into bayonets I presume that charges are being troublesome, remeber to use the M42, Palmetto or Farmer for the melee and always try to keep a reserve brigade (I use 1 brigade for 3-4 brigades as a backup) or arty near (best both) to prevail the charges without breaking the line (AI seldomly coordinates the charges properly, although got better at that after recent patches). 

Always try to keep the line , use skirmirshers and terrain and it will turn out great Unless you brought 25 500-1000 men infantry brigades  to the battle, there is little for that. 

I think it may be a corps composition issue indeed, the more I'm looking forward to Gmoney7447 reply

 

I tried to flank them from the side and it worked for a litte bit but eventually led to nothing but me rushing back to the woods to defend the objective. And I got slaughtered there too. They just have so many numbers. 58000 on the field compared to my one corp of

15,779 inf

900 artiller 

1487 Calvary 

it won't let my insert a picture 

[Gael]

Gmoney7447,

COL & BG levels: 

During the 1st moment of 2nd Manassas (or 2nd Bull Run for the Yanks), I always send cavalry units and all available skirmisher units into most all of the wooded areas of the map - skirmishers into the right/East side of the map can go to wooded or built-up areas in front of the CSA fortifications, but not into the little white banner locations on the railroad as those just get your troops shot up.  The skirmishers and cavalry on the middle and left/West - I send all I can get my hands on into the wooded areas - spread out - one skirmisher into Groveton, all others into wooded areas - one in the far left woods toward map bottom - two into woods south of Groveton, three spread north to south in the thin woods north of Groveton, and a couple others into wooded areas in middle and middle-south of the water-way.  Watch for any and all targets of opportunity to ambush - supply wagons to capture and send back to be used by CSA during the 1st day - and to wipe out Fed artillery units that are not escorted ( this can really play havoc with the other side's ability to conduct battle.  Be certain to remember you need to play "hide-and-seek" and to "run" when the Feds come chasing your skirmishers and cavalry.)  There is one artillery battalion that shows up SW of Groveton following 3 Yank brigades - I always stalk that battalion and wipe it out - no matter how long it takes and no matter how much cat-and-mouse I have to do.  Realize that supply wagons and artillery (and infantry) flow from East (crossing Bull Run) to far West and to north west.  When things work well I can capture 4-6 supply wagons and knock off about 2-4 artillery battalions during the first day.  Route those supply wagons SAFELY to your artillery units backing the fortifications at middle and ESPECIALLY the East.  These captured supply wagons are the ONLY way to keep my troops supplied with ammo and in the fight during the 1st day's heavy fighting in the East section of fortifications.

As CSA, I utilize the fortifications north of the tracks - mid-way between the unfinished railroad line and the woods, and on the bottom edge of the woods toward the West.  For the fortifications of middle and East, I put brigades into those with the white banner locations, and put another brigade behind each one in the fortifications - the fire of both are sufficient to turn away the Yanks.  When the first one gets worn down, put the 2nd into the fortifications and put the first in the rear position.  Although the Yanks take quite a beating, they can still eventually push your troops away from the fortifications - at that time position your troops up the hill and into the edge of the woods.  Move reserve troops of the West gradually to the East as those CSA of the East will be wearing down fairly fast once the serious mass attacks start rolling.

During the next day -- realize the actual terrain of Bull Run is uniquely formed - there is a portion starting a bit north of stone bridge and starting to turn West, where the Eastern bank of Bull Run forms a "cliff" about 15-25 feet higher than the West bank, and this runs almost all the way over to the Sudley Ford / Sudley Church area.  (Sudley Church is there, expanded, and still used by the local community.  I lived in the Manassas area for about 5 years.  )   There is criticism in some books about Stonewall's not pushing hard and attacking after Porter's attack was beaten back.  -- Realize, that he/you WANT to trap the whole Yank force against that cliff area - they can't take their artillery and supply wagons into Bull Run's water (the 3-4 foot banks are steep, and then up that cliff - it is there and it is real.  Jackson did not want Pope's Army to move away from Sudley Ford / Bull Run "cliff".  This is also why Pope's Army (and McDowell in 1st Manassas) was desperate to retreat everyone across the stone bridge area (E.P. Alexander was the engineer in charge of blowing up stone bridge during Johnston's retreat down to Richmond during the Spring of 1862 - it was rebuilt by the National Battlefield Park Service about 20 years ago so all can once again walk on it.)  During the retreat there was another of McClellan's Corps that had pulled up and stationed themselves between Cub Run and Bull Run East of the stone bridge area and would have provided covering fire.  This is why Longstreet's attack had to swing around Henry House Hill, sweep past stone bridge, and trap Pope's army against those cliffs, while Jackson had to hold his position around the Sudley Ford and Sudley Church area.  When the attack did not go thru the woods to the stone bridge, this is the moment the strategic movements of Jackson and Lee/Longstreet failed in this 2nd attempt to surround Pope's Army for either surrender or destruction. 

In your game, the strategy is the same - block Sudley Ford, have Longstreet swing around - taking Stone Bridge and the two northern fords, and then pull the noose tighter and tighter while destroying as much of Pope's Army as possible.  (Easy ....?  )

                             --Gael

 

 

 

 

[Gmoney7447]

I won the battle with 5300 losses to their 17000. Thank you all for the help

Edited November 24, 2017 by Gmoney7447
Misspell

[Gael]

On 11/24/2017 at 2:50 AM, Gmoney7447 said:

I won the battle with 5300 losses to their 17000. Thank you all for the help

Gmoney7447, you are most welcome!  --Gael

[Mukremin]

I am having the same problem, maybe i made a mistake during the course of the campaign but i won all battles and lost none. Draw Shiloh and Mallvern Hill.
I get my ass kicked first try with 2nd Battle of Bull Run. I lost my cavalry and a whole lot of infantry during the first phase where you have to lure the enemy. I will try to use your tips, but something tells me my force wont be able to do the job got no cash, only a few battalions have good rifles. See attachments for my army.

[Mukremin]

damn i had a good run at the battle, but i saved and tried to re-load the battle but it wont let me is this normal? it loads me back to the battle map. sucks... going to have to start all over again

 

update:
OMG! I won i held Stone Wall for a couple of turns, then went on the offensive and secured the hill. Lucky my older save was lost lol

Edited December 5, 2017 by Mukremin

[Gael]

On 12/5/2017 at 3:00 AM, Mukremin said:

I am having the same problem, maybe i made a mistake during the course of the campaign but i won all battles and lost none. Draw Shiloh and Mallvern Hill.
I get my ass kicked first try with 2nd Battle of Bull Run. I lost my cavalry and a whole lot of infantry during the first phase where you have to lure the enemy. I will try to use your tips, but something tells me my force wont be able to do the job got no cash, only a few battalions have good rifles. See attachments for my army.

Mukremin,

I note you are starting the battle with a very small number of soldiers and no funding.

I follow a somewhat different philosophy of accumulating as many troops as possible - which also has a few personal twists of big artillery battalions (24 cannons each) and a few cavalry brigades (750 each) for speed and distance.

In starting another new Southern campaign on BG-level I have reached the 2nd Battle of Manassas once again.  In response to your frustration in your first note, I have the following numbers to compare to yours in starting this Battle:

1st Corps    4 Div's   3 Inf Bgdes each   1 arty Batt/Div (1st Div has 2 arty batt's)   2 cav Bgdes

                     28,517 Soldiers   120 guns   1500 cav   26,897 inf   3000 arty    supply @ 35,000

2nd Corps   4 Div's   3 Inf Bgdes each   1 arty Batt/Div   1 cav Bgde

                      24,335 Soldiers   96 guns   750 cav   23,465 inf   2400 arty    supply @ 35,000

3rd Corps    2 Div's   2 Inf Bgdes each   1 arty Batt/Div   1 cav Bgde

                      9,728 Soldiers   48 guns   750 cav   8,858 inf   1200 arty    supply @ 35,000

Here you can see the first two corps are fairly stout and ready to receive and give battle, while I am in process of building a 3rd corps to eventually resemble the other two.

Seeing that you have nothing available as to funding gives me pause.  I hold off on buying fancy but costly weapons, but do so only gradually upon making certain I have emptied the "recruits" box down to zero if at all possible -- I have to watch the "funding" pile and balance each to the other.  I tend to wait to see if a large number of weapons and cannons have been captured after a big battle, that I can supply new recruits at zero or minimal cost.  Also, as soon as I can I will boost each corps' supply up to the 35,000-level so I don't have to pay attention to it during any following battle or camp (BUT - do NOT allow your supply to captured!!!).

I put my leader points after each victory toward army organization and politics.  The politics will provide batches of extra recruits to help build the size of your force.

Hopefully, the above will provide insight to you of a different perspective that seems to work for me. 

As the campaign progresses, I start doubling up on artillery battalions - 2-3 per division.  (Check my topic BG-level win at Washington in this forum, where I describe what I did for my first BG-level victory there.)

Good luck,

                 --Gael

 

 

[Mukremin]

3 hours ago, Gael said:

Mukremin,

I note you are starting the battle with a very small number of soldiers and no funding.

I follow a somewhat different philosophy of accumulating as many troops as possible - which also has a few personal twists of big artillery battalions (24 cannons each) and a few cavalry brigades (750 each) for speed and distance.

In starting another new Southern campaign on BG-level I have reached the 2nd Battle of Manassas once again.  In response to your frustration in your first note, I have the following numbers to compare to yours in starting this Battle:

1st Corps    4 Div's   3 Inf Bgdes each   1 arty Batt/Div (1st Div has 2 arty batt's)   2 cav Bgdes

                     28,517 Soldiers   120 guns   1500 cav   26,897 inf   3000 arty    supply @ 35,000

2nd Corps   4 Div's   3 Inf Bgdes each   1 arty Batt/Div   1 cav Bgde

                      24,335 Soldiers   96 guns   750 cav   23,465 inf   2400 arty    supply @ 35,000

3rd Corps    2 Div's   2 Inf Bgdes each   1 arty Batt/Div   1 cav Bgde

                      9,728 Soldiers   48 guns   750 cav   8,858 inf   1200 arty    supply @ 35,000

Here you can see the first two corps are fairly stout and ready to receive and give battle, while I am in process of building a 3rd corps to eventually resemble the other two.

Seeing that you have nothing available as to funding gives me pause.  I hold off on buying fancy but costly weapons, but do so only gradually upon making certain I have emptied the "recruits" box down to zero if at all possible -- I have to watch the "funding" pile and balance each to the other.  I tend to wait to see if a large number of weapons and cannons have been captured after a big battle, that I can supply new recruits at zero or minimal cost.  Also, as soon as I can I will boost each corps' supply up to the 35,000-level so I don't have to pay attention to it during any following battle or camp (BUT - do NOT allow your supply to captured!!!).

I put my leader points after each victory toward army organization and politics.  The politics will provide batches of extra recruits to help build the size of your force.

Hopefully, the above will provide insight to you of a different perspective that seems to work for me. 

As the campaign progresses, I start doubling up on artillery battalions - 2-3 per division.  (Check my topic BG-level win at Washington in this forum, where I describe what I did for my first BG-level victory there.)

Good luck,

                 --Gael

 

 

Thats some great explanation buddy, have followed advises likenl this on this wonderful forum. I still beat the Union with my few numbers. I have now three strong corps and my number increased to 40.000 men. I destroyed the enemy at Gettysburg after cornering them to Cemeteray hill.

İ made a mistake not to invest in politics.. my biggest mistake. And like you said i spend way too much on guns. Now i use captured rifles and only elite units have good guns.

 

You have like 3 times more men lol