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Why only some factions succeed while others only met failure?

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From my experience from many mmo expecial eve online  more then think about how to win, first you need to decide what kind of clan, nation alliance you wanna be, and recruit only people that fit your needs. 

So if you wanna win, you only take people who wanna win before have fun, people that  work for have 0,0001% more hp dmg speed ,  or that particular module that give an edge thats a natural attitude that elite pvpers have, everything else is a casual.

Also from my experience on leading  various alliance over 10 years in eve , thousands man alliances in various mmo i learn that  "council" and any other form of democracy  not work,  too many  "leaders" who think becouse they lead theyr 5 man clan they have a say.          In eve the most powerful alliances where always dictature and always run by  the "fleet commander"    wich is followed becouse it bring results and people trust him and his voice is insindacable..         In a fght you need 1 voice, 1 leader with a plan,         

I remember when i joined brits in Na and they where leading pb with 5-7 people  was a mess, then i kinda forced my way, and when i was leading or  augustus was leading (wich i teach him a lot )  the rate of wins went from 40-45% to 85% +     , The infamous castries that i lost (after defending it 15 times btw) is also part of the "democracy" issues that happens, where i was forced to bring in people i considered SHIT, in fact the last pb that i lead in brit  , i cherry picked every single one and we won flawless in attack vs spain, (this caused a split in the brit community where srupl and other people like him wich i didnt want in fleet kinda created a 2nd council LOL and of course they never archieved any pb win ) with a pre planned strategy before the pb.  between me and Augustus  just to proof a point. That if they let me do things my way we where going to win, if you remember whas the period where win a 25 vs 25 in attack was very hard a thing that was happening once every 25pb as average.   (that tells a lot about how is important to have 1 commander, and players able to follow his order flawless,  even better if you have secondary commanders that  "lead" part of your fleet, but accordingly to your main vision, to better micro manage the players focus )

Dictature is a strong word but it means that at the end 1 guy make the calls, that not means he not inquire his officers , or delegate  part of the comand, logistic etc.  A good leader need to know how to delegate.         Much importance is the meritocracy in eve in albion in na i always promoted people that where reconized by the majority to deserve the role,  if someone ask to, he is not fit.

 

Pvpers reconize and respect other pvpers is a natural process that none can fake.

Standards of quality are important also, as well the ability to impose them.  never compromise yourself just for have "more"  I always prefer 10 lions then 100 sheeps.

 

But tbh if someone need to tell you, what it takes to lead, is becouse you are no leader.      I spent countless hours organizing everything  in my clan, from resource distribution to logistic to crafting, to training, to lead pb myself, and at the end of the day i was watching even other nations/clans PB purely for study their commanders psicology and tactics,  nobody told me to do it, is my willingness to prevail at all cost. you either have it. or you dont.

Edited by Lord Vicious
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On 19/1/2018 at 12:51 AM, Lord Vicious said:

From my experience from many mmo expecial eve online  more then think about how to win, first you need to decide what kind of clan, nation alliance you wanna be, and recruit only people that fit your needs. 

So if you wanna win, you only take people who wanna win before have fun, people that  work for have 0,0001% more hp dmg speed ,  or that particular module that give an edge thats a natural attitude that elite pvpers have, everything else is a casual.

Also from my experience on leading  various alliance over 10 years in eve , thousands man alliances in various mmo i learn that  "council" and any other form of democracy  not work,  too many  "leaders" who think becouse they lead theyr 5 man clan they have a say.          In eve the most powerful alliances where always dictature and always run by  the "fleet commander"    wich is followed becouse it bring results and people trust him and his voice is insindacable..         In a fght you need 1 voice, 1 leader with a plan,         

I remember when i joined brits in Na and they where leading pb with 5-7 people  was a mess, then i kinda forced my way, and when i was leading or  augustus was leading (wich i teach him a lot )  the rate of wins went from 40-45% to 85% +     , The infamous castries that i lost (after defending it 15 times btw) is also part of the "democracy" issues that happens, where i was forced to bring in people i considered SHIT, in fact the last pb that i lead in brit  , i cherry picked every single one and we won flawless in attack vs spain, (this caused a split in the brit community where srupl and other people like him wich i didnt want in fleet kinda created a 2nd council LOL and of course they never archieved any pb win ) with a pre planned strategy before the pb.  between me and Augustus  just to proof a point. That if they let me do things my way we where going to win, if you remember whas the period where win a 25 vs 25 in attack was very hard a thing that was happening once every 25pb as average.   (that tells a lot about how is important to have 1 commander, and players able to follow his order flawless,  even better if you have secondary commanders that  "lead" part of your fleet, but accordingly to your main vision, to better micro manage the players focus )

Dictature is a strong word but it means that at the end 1 guy make the calls, that not means he not inquire his officers , or delegate  part of the comand, logistic etc.  A good leader need to know how to delegate.         Much importance is the meritocracy in eve in albion in na i always promoted people that where reconized by the majority to deserve the role,  if someone ask to, he is not fit.

 

Pvpers reconize and respect other pvpers is a natural process that none can fake.

Standards of quality are important also, as well the ability to impose them.  never compromise yourself just for have "more"  I always prefer 10 lions then 100 sheeps.

 

But tbh if someone need to tell you, what it takes to lead, is becouse you are no leader.      I spent countless hours organizing everything  in my clan, from resource distribution to logistic to crafting, to training, to lead pb myself, and at the end of the day i was watching even other nations/clans PB purely for study their commanders psicology and tactics,  nobody told me to do it, is my willingless to prevail at all cost. you either have it. or you dont.

Less fake propaganda of your merits.

We all know the spantards just suck. In that time, the lenin´s fleet were the one that always played the heavier battles. The same fleet which kick your ass from cap francais.

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KOTO's dread fleet back in the day was built to greatness by dedication and an open attitude.  We accepted all and only closed the door on you if your attitude was negative and we all know there's plenty of that on the internet haha. Back when KOTO formed (in NA) pre steam release Kuthura just used to help new guys out picking up people to do AI fleets. Doing this over and over bought many friends into our midst and we quickly began to gel. The Crucial factor that lead to the success we had pre wipe was a strong no bullshit respect for each other. We bounced off each others strengths and weaknesses in battle and logistics. Some of us were great for human resourcing others brilliant at tactics etc and we had no hesitation to listen to constructive criticism.  Building that knowledge bank between players from all walks of life ( sailors, soldiers, chefs, dog walkers you name it) was key. With this knowledge we learnt from mistakes and used it to our advantage creating daring tactics and not being afraid of loss (all part of the fun)

But ultimately I think the deciding factor in what bought about the great fleets of the battle of Jereme habour was dedication both from SLRN and KOTO & coalition clans and the key players/officers that drove up the war drums for events like this to happen.


Hats off to the days of old may the cannons forever fire over the graveyards of Jereme.

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On 19.1.2018 at 12:51 AM, Lord Vicious said:

Also from my experience on leading  various alliance over 10 years in eve , thousands man alliances in various mmo i learn that  "council" and any other form of democracy  not work,  too many  "leaders" who think becouse they lead theyr 5 man clan they have a say.

Disagree on this part. At the end the only difference between a council and a dictator is that people vote for decisions instead of 1 person doing what he wants.

Everything else is basically the same, fleet commader leads the fleet, specific people get told to bring repairs to port etc...

 

And as long as people respect the decisions even they dont like it it works, both for councils and for dictators. Thats prob why it didnt work in Britain for you, because many disagreed and thought they are better off doing their own thing.

 

As long as people play together and respect each other they will work towards their goal.

Edited by Jon Snow lets go
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On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 7:15 AM, Sir Texas Sir said:

And we are not as organized as folks think.  The funny thing is when folks come over from other nations they find out two things about BLACK:  Our numbers aren't what they think and we actually fight and argue a lot for as organized we seem in battle...lol

We really are about 15-20 guys (20-25 at prime but more like 5-10 right now) that have been beating them. I don't lie when I say that over and over.  Yes we might use alts and multi box a port battle so when your getting beat by 15-20 guys in a port battle with 15-25 ships some of those ships are played by the same guy.  I remember pre-wipe we had actuall done a lot of port battles at the same time sending alts to fight the other one.  Where it looked like it was 50 of us. This takes a lot of organization, communication and just flat out skill to do.  It also the fastest way to burn out.  

Our Port battles are mainly tight group that balls up (the pirate ball) and than we turn it into a brawl and it works against very unorganized groups that we tend to face in other nations. 

The other thing is letting the past go.  We all know me and @Christendom have had our past issues in the global chat and forums, but VCO came to me and asked over a week before they went pirates what they think. I told them there might be a few issues with some players but they are welcome.  Just be warned you will prob get shot at least once in battle by accident out of old habits. I tell every one that comes pirate this cause it's true you see a name your so use to shooting and you just fire forgetting they are on your team.

And this is how we had SOL's before any one else before after the wipe and we had full Port battle fleets ready to go.  When we got the Heavy Rattler I was the only one that crafted one and had 2-3 slots on it when Lionshaft flipped West End.  By the next day we had 25+ built (more like 30-40) and most of our guys had 2-4 slots unlocked from grinding.  I had all 5 slots and didn't even make it into the port battle.  My first SOL was a 3rd rate (2nd one built on server) even though rummors was I had the first Bucc (started that rumor on global  chat to mess with folks), I did have the 2 or 3rd Victory on server though as my 1st Rate.  We have so much stocked up in clan that we where able to pump out one day 12 First rates after a port battle to get every one into there 2nd and than 3rd First rates so we could fight in more than one fronts.  This way a small force can be in multi places fast.  We all ways did this you pick as a clan 2-3 regions every one had to have ports in and ships ready and you keep with that.

This is very important thing folks forget.  We have won so many battles cause we took one person down and watch the other team run in all directions.  Back when they did regional wipes and started the alliance system between clan members we took 17 First Rates off US when they where trying to grab Spain empty ports that first week.  Most of those we tagged and half the team left to run off to the empty port battle.  Leaving behind the slow 1st rates for our frigates and low end SOL's (mainly Bucc's board fit) to take out and capture.   They would prefer to run to an empty port battle than to protect there own and most prized ships.  That mentality is what has killed GB and US on GLOBAL/PvP2 since day one when I came over from EU many many moons ago and why I left US and became pirates with half my clan UNKN.

Before the wipe MARS was very much known as a carebear PvE only clan that hardly show up for anything other than certain win port battles.  One thing some of the members started to do after they where loosing so much was actually come talk to me.  I have had simple short convo's with members of other nations letting them know what they did wrong and what they can do to help.  My number one advice to them was, "STOP CAREBEAR ALLIANCE AND FIGHT THE BRITS."  Not that we want them to kill each other and be out of hair, but instead if your not skilled enough to take on the ELITE of the Server than what you need to do is fight folks of your skill set and learn from those fights without having such as bad end results (like us wiping out there complete PB fleet almost every time).  As @JobaSet said above you have to go out and fight, your going to sink a lot, but you have to go out and fight and learn.  You don't get better by sitting on your arse in port or killing AI.  I'll be bluntly honest I suck at solo PvP, it's me working with other players that helps me do well.  That is why I almost always refuse to dual folks 1 vs 1....lol

While I want to make it clear I'm not BLACK clan leader as we have our core leaders and we have our officers.  I have not lead a port battle until after the wipe but i been in many of them. cause our core leaders are all gone playing other games.  We got burned out and bored.  hell I'm doing the same right now I haven't really been in game for 2-3 weeks now.  The key is what has been said by many here.  Every port battles i tend to say the same thing before we start.

  • DON'T SINK
  • DON'T SHOOT YOUR TEAM MATES
  • REMEMBER THE CIRCLES DON'T MEAN CRAP IF YOUR SINKING SHIPS, BUT THE POINTS DO. Just ask US when we took Wilmington from them when they had 960 pts and had us out number 25 vs 19 (was 16 at start).  Sinking ships is very important as that turned around real fast in that battle as does many other times we been in fights.

The biggest mistake I see on other teams is not focus firing and not protecting your weak ships.  You got to focus fire and you got to switch out and protect your fellow battle buddies.

 

I have not been in this game for a very long time, I can recall when the Pirates left to go fight France for deep ports and ignored the shallows from Pitts to Green Turtle. Those clans that went their had successes but in the end either rerolled or left. The Pirates that remained in the shallows were pushed back by the US, mostly from a clan called USS. There were a few die hard players but Pirate moral had taken a hit and some of the most vocal of its members called USS a zerg fleet.

 

However as you point out about Black the truth was not the same as the belief, USS was a fist full of half decent players that worked hard. USS had its fair share of issues culminating in about 8 members jumping over and going Pirate,  they formed the SSU. The few made a difference in the moral of the pirates and they pushed the US back and then started to take other areas. 

SSU didn't really have any structure to it, everyone was a leader or no one was. SSU fought with anyone that needed numbers and could be counted on. They were not the best individual pvper's but they worked well as a team. They went to the EU server to fight for the Swedish who were good but small, but they I think they burnt out and drifted away.

I think Curse and DC and a couple of other Pirate clans were emerging at that time as clans that could get fleets together and get stuff done, but what happened then no idea as I had stopped in April 2016.

 

Just popped back to have a look an see how the game was.

Edited by Ci'Ki

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1 hour ago, Ci'Ki said:

I have not been in this game for a very long time, I can recall when the Pirates left to go fight France for deep ports and ignored the shallows from Pitts to Green Turtle. Those clans that went their had successes but in the end either rerolled or left. The Pirates that remained in the shallows were pushed back by the US, mostly from a clan called USS. There were a few die hard players but Pirate moral had taken a hit and some of the most vocal of its members called USS a zerg fleet.

 

However as you point out about Black the truth was not the same as the belief, USS was a fist full of half decent players that worked hard. USS had its fair share of issues culminating in about 8 members jumping over and going Pirate,  they formed the SSU. The few made a difference in the moral of the pirates and they pushed the US back and then started to take other areas. 

SSU didn't really have any structure to it, everyone was a leader or no one was. SSU fought with anyone that needed numbers and could be counted on. They were not the best individual pvper's but they worked well as a team. They went to the EU server to fight for the Swedish who were good but small, but they I think they burnt out and drifted away.

I think Curse and DC and a couple of other Pirate clans were emerging at that time as clans that could get fleets together and get stuff done, but what happened then no idea as I had stopped in April 2016.

 

Just popped back to have a look an see how the game was.

April 2016 was about when me and around 10 of 22 active members (40 total) switched UNKN over from US to Pirate cause we got sick of the leadership and actions of the big clans in US when fighting the pirates even though they out number them ever fight.  We wanted to work with a smaller more organized team.  Later I switched over to black cause our clan leader got AFK streaming other games.   Yah a small well organized clan can make or break a nation.  Every one always thought pirates was like the hugest nation. Honestly we where more like the 3rd or 4th largest nation.  US and GB always held that title but they had so many carebears that didn't know how to work with each other.  It's the same on the new server, GB by Devs numbers they let slip last week has more members than most of the nations combined and they are prob one of the worse RvR nations out there for the most part.

Oh and welcome back we been getting a lot of old time players poping back on checking things out.

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On 2/4/2018 at 10:05 AM, Ci'Ki said:

I have not been in this game for a very long time, I can recall when the Pirates left to go fight France for deep ports and ignored the shallows from Pitts to Green Turtle. Those clans that went their had successes but in the end either rerolled or left. The Pirates that remained in the shallows were pushed back by the US, mostly from a clan called USS. There were a few die hard players but Pirate moral had taken a hit and some of the most vocal of its members called USS a zerg fleet.

 

However as you point out about Black the truth was not the same as the belief, USS was a fist full of half decent players that worked hard. USS had its fair share of issues culminating in about 8 members jumping over and going Pirate,  they formed the SSU. The few made a difference in the moral of the pirates and they pushed the US back and then started to take other areas. 

SSU didn't really have any structure to it, everyone was a leader or no one was. SSU fought with anyone that needed numbers and could be counted on. They were not the best individual pvper's but they worked well as a team. They went to the EU server to fight for the Swedish who were good but small, but they I think they burnt out and drifted away.

I think Curse and DC and a couple of other Pirate clans were emerging at that time as clans that could get fleets together and get stuff done, but what happened then no idea as I had stopped in April 2016.

 

Just popped back to have a look an see how the game was.

Ahhh, the good old days. I was one of the USS/SSU guys. Latron might log in once in awhile now. Snackbar I think does too. Most of curse/dc rolled into Black as did SSU eventually.

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2 minutes ago, Ser_Slack said:

Ahhh, the good old days. I was one of the USS/SSU guys. Latron might log in once in awhile now. Snackbar I think does too. Most of curse/dc rolled into Black as did SSU eventually.

@Latron is still around. Logs in almost daily.

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Hell yeah taking the bahamas as USS and then going pirate and taking them all back with SSU was a freaking blast. The US server may have very different if we hadn't done it.

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15 hours ago, Latron said:

Hell yeah taking the bahamas as USS and then going pirate and taking them all back with SSU was a freaking blast. The US server may have very different if we hadn't done it.

You go French or Prussian after the merge? I think Fap went French. What nation is Black? I haven't even jumped into the discord lately.

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Just now, Ser_Slack said:

You go French or Prussian after the merge? I think Fap went French. What nation is Black? I haven't even jumped into the discord lately.

Latron joined me at HOST after the merge in Poland. I stepped down and I promoted Latron to lead HOST for his loyalty and dedication to the clan not to mention the ability he has shown. BLACK pretty much broke apart and I guess you can say is non-existent. You can find remnants of BLACK in USA and Russia now. 

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I think an issue for smaller nations is the attrition of players. Especially when there is a prolonged conflict. Especially when they could get annihilated in one night if they have bad luck.

Prussia is currently kind of an exception with their OW pvp ethos, but in general smaller nations suffer more in longer conflicts.

PS: I wonder how the player numbers have changed as all the carta alts went back to sweden.

 

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7 minutes ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

Prussia is currently kind of an exception with their OW pvp ethos, but in general smaller nations suffer more in longer conflicts.

No one has really gone after Prussia though so it is hard to give a good assessment on them.

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1 minute ago, Davos Seasworth said:

No one has really gone after Prussia though so it is hard to give a good assessment on them.

As RVR is just a hobby for them, they are night invulnerable to the RVR attrition I discribed.

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1 hour ago, Davos Seasworth said:

No one has really gone after Prussia though so it is hard to give a good assessment on them.

We have regular RvR battles with pirates (1 PB per week), and now we'll probably have with Spanish. Even if we loose all the ports (which is next to impossible on our low BR ports), I guess our numbers wouldn't change - we would still keep our capital, La Tortue. We could probably loose more players if we started a regular RvR, as fighting bots to grind hostility would become boring.

Edited by vazco
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3 hours ago, vazco said:

We have regular RvR battles with pirates (1 PB per week), and now we'll probably have with Spanish. Even if we loose all the ports (which is next to impossible on our low BR ports), I guess our numbers wouldn't change - we would still keep our capital, La Tortue. We could probably loose more players if we started a regular RvR, as fighting bots to grind hostility would become boring.

That is what I mean. Pirates give you one to three PB a week. Espana really is just on the defensive. They will probably only attack ports that were taken from them. I mean apart from Espana you really have not fought on a regular basis a decently strong opponent. Which is smart. But not something a nation in a location like Prussia is can avoid in the long run. I suspect the core group that went to Prussia mainly for PvP will stay but the others that flocked to Prussia might leave.

Edited by Davos Seasworth

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14 minutes ago, Davos Seasworth said:

I suspect the core group that went to Prussia mainly for PvP will stay but the others that flocked to Prussia might leave.

That's the point. We don't have any players who flocked to us. You can't not-PvP while in Prussia. You wouldn't have a place to do it from, and people to do it with. Everyone is a wolf.

 

20 minutes ago, Davos Seasworth said:

That is what I mean. Pirates give you one to three PB a week. (...) you really have not fought on a regular basis a decently strong opponent

FYI - those are Rubli - the same clan who defeated Russia and Commonwealth in the past :) I think we fought approx. 4 times with them for Blondel Cay. In my opinion together with WO (whom we also fought), this is the strongest clan on the server.

I guess you ment numerous oponent, rather than strong.

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3 minutes ago, vazco said:

That's the point. We don't have any players who flocked to us. You can't not-PvP while in Prussia. You wouldn't have a place to do it from, and people to do it with. Everyone is a wolf.

 

FYI - those are Rubli - the same clan who defeated Russia and Commonwealth in the past :) I think we fought approx. 4 times with them for Blondel Cay. In my opinion together with WO (whom we also fought), this is the strongest clan on the server.

I guess you ment numerous oponent, rather than strong.

RUBLI in the shallows vs RUBLI in a 2400 BR PB is a different animal entirely.  

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11 minutes ago, Christendom said:

RUBLI in the shallows vs RUBLI in a 2400 BR PB is a different animal entirely.  

If they don't join us, I'll be happy to try them out :) I fought against them before in large battles, and I know they're good. We're also good. It could be interesting.

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Win in RvR?

- no more than two/three main clans running on a regular basis port battles (other clans may add some members, but just as support)

- number of players in those main clans shall be enough (and have enough ships) to field at least to full fleets for a 4th rate/1st rate port battle

- strategic organization of coordinated attack/defense

- dedication and discipline during port battles.

As far as civil wars are concerned, the way to avoid them is just that RvR clan officers are smart enough not to act as dictators in dealing with things OUTSIDE the port battles (in port battles only one gives orders and others just obey)

Edited by victor

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13 hours ago, Davos Seasworth said:

Latron joined me at HOST after the merge in Poland. I stepped down and I promoted Latron to lead HOST for his loyalty and dedication to the clan not to mention the ability he has shown. BLACK pretty much broke apart and I guess you can say is non-existent. You can find remnants of BLACK in USA and Russia now. 

And in KOTO :)

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