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Bjerg Bjergsson

Upgrades: The Great Imbalancer

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Problem: As I see it experienced players gaining even more of an edge over new players through ship experience and upgrades/builds. For veteran players it upgrades + mods + builds means a player must have a PvE ship and a PvP ship if they want to do both. If they are on a PvE mission and are jumped they are at a disadvantage or if they want to now PvP they have to sail back and change to their PvP build (how many times have I seen/heard "let me go back to port and get my PvP build...").

Evidence: Two players encounter each other in OW, both of them in say a Lynx. One is brand new and the other is a veteran. The new player has a base ship (say oak with oak planking) and medium 6pdrs with no ship knowledge and thus no upgrades. The veteran player can use his ship knowledge + permanent upgrade slots to fit a combination of, what.. seven out of FORTY SIX different Upgrades that when stacked can give (him as a singular example) +16% hull penetration (Bow Figure - Rattlesnake + Almeria Superior Gunpowder) or +22% hull penetration if you can stack Guacata Superior Gunpowder on top of that - not including if he is using 6pdr longs. 

46 upgrades is way too many - especially coupled with the various wood combinations and planking and then add Officer Perks and you can have a crushing imbalance for a new player to try and overcome. Are all these upgrades really necessary? What do they add to gameplay other than imbalance? Why does a veteran and experienced player even need these things? 

The example I gave above is regarding guns but the issue travels into the speed meta problems as well. Having a handful of speed mods + wood choices + officer perks and suddenly you are untouchable in your Wasa (or pfrig etc). You can gank and run as you choose and none can touch you. 

Solution: Level the playing field. Officer perks are gained through experience and they provide any sort of "mod" abilities across all ships. Ship "knowledge" is Ship Veterancy and takes the form of purely cosmetic effects like sail colours or paintjobs or signal flags. Number of woods reduced to 4 or 5 (not 8) and values tweaked accordingly.

In Conclusion: A player shouldn't need a PvE ship AND a PvP ship. More Byzantine systems of mods and tweaks and upgrades and perks and woods do not great gameplay make. Getting people on the water and letting player experience and knowledge decide a battle is far more fun, realistic and challenging than who has the better upgrades/speed meta.

 

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Who gets decides what a PvE ship and a PvP is on Naval Action? I actually PvE in my ship that I also use to PvP and I am not making this up. The choice is up for you to decide how you want to PvP. This is not a problem with refits/books/slots this is a problem with it being a veteran player vs a new player because veteran wins no matter what ship he is using. (Yes being a player who spends a lot of time playing is going to win a fight against a noob and thats how the world works). 

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54 minutes ago, Lord Gud said:

Who gets decides what a PvE ship and a PvP is on Naval Action? I actually PvE in my ship that I also use to PvP and I am not making this up. The choice is up for you to decide how you want to PvP. This is not a problem with refits/books/slots this is a problem with it being a veteran player vs a new player because veteran wins no matter what ship he is using. (Yes being a player who spends a lot of time playing is going to win a fight against a noob and thats how the world works). 

Certainly a vet vs. noob is going to be an imbalanced fight based purely on experience of player, that's in some ways my point. It is already going to be one sided, adding mods + perks + wood types on top of pure player experience only tips the scales that much further. Does this make for good gameplay for the noob? Or even for the vet? 

Let me ask you, what does refits/books/slots bring to the table? What do they add gameplay wise beyond speed meta and many other issues? You say you do both PvE and PvP in your ship - what is your ship and what is the breakdown of your build? Would a simplified system and build not be also PvE and PvP capable? 

Edited by Bjerg Bjergsson

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28 minutes ago, Bjerg Bjergsson said:

Certainly a vet vs. noob is going to be an imbalanced fight based purely on experience of player, that's in some ways my point. It is already going to be one sided, adding mods + perks + wood types on top of pure player experience only tips the scales that much further. Does this make for good gameplay for the noob? Or even for the vet? 

Let me ask you, what does refits/books/slots bring to the table? What do they add gameplay wise beyond speed meta and many other issues? You say you do both PvE and PvP in your ship - what is your ship and what is the breakdown of your build? Would a simplified system and build not be also PvE and PvP capable? 

Do you want all ships but the Basic Cutter to be removed so we can have fair fights for new players?

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really?  you think the mods are the problem?

 

nah man, its about pvp experience.  first time pvpers even if they have all the same mods, will probably lose anyway.  had nothing to do with the mods.  everything to do with you pvp skills and the things you've learned while fighting other players.

 

I think there should be a difference between pvp ship and a pve ship.  cause both require different skill sets to be successful.  and different mods.  

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4 minutes ago, randommexi said:

really?  you think the mods are the problem?

 

nah man, its about pvp experience.  first time pvpers even if they have all the same mods, will probably lose anyway.  had nothing to do with the mods.  everything to do with you pvp skills and the things you've learned while fighting other players.

 

I think there should be a difference between pvp ship and a pve ship.  cause both require different skill sets to be successful.  and different mods.  

I can confirm that. Mods matter only on same skill level.

I had 0 slots on my teak teak hermione. Sank 1 endymion in a 1v1 so now i have 1 slot. In the tournament i sailed a 2 slot renomee.

Pvp experience and thinking is whats making the difference mostly.

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41 minutes ago, rediii said:

I can confirm that. Mods matter only on same skill level.

I had 0 slots on my teak teak hermione. Sank 1 endymion in a 1v1 so now i have 1 slot. In the tournament i sailed a 2 slot renomee.

Pvp experience and thinking is whats making the difference mostly.

So mods only matter on the same skill level meaning.. mods do matter? I also hate to point out your experience as a pretty high skill level PvP player is not emblematic of a new player experience. ;) 
 

 

47 minutes ago, randommexi said:

really?  you think the mods are the problem?

 

nah man, its about pvp experience.  first time pvpers even if they have all the same mods, will probably lose anyway.  had nothing to do with the mods.  everything to do with you pvp skills and the things you've learned while fighting other players.

 

I think there should be a difference between pvp ship and a pve ship.  cause both require different skill sets to be successful.  and different mods.  

I do think mods are a problem - certainly not the only one. PvP experience is absolutely learned and the only way to do it is by playing and getting sunk and playing more. I've fought players in PvP and done alright and I've fought players in PvP and lost. The biggest difference I found when losing was the times I didn't feel I learned anything when I got crushed thanks to faster reloads and more maneuverability - it was noticeable. Not as noticeable a difference as the old exceptional mods were back in the day but enough. 

Ultimately that is my point. As rediii said mods make a difference. Maybe to him it only seems so on the same skill level but when the skill level is asymmetric then the mods will help even more. The difference for a new player between a close fight - or even a pitched battle - where they can see how they were defeated and understand the mistakes they made versus a battle wherein they were just outclassed at every level does not make them feel like they have a chance. 

I think of War Thunder in this regard. You can get matches where you get outplayed and that's that but then there are matches where you just get humiliated thanks to max upgrades etc - and that is in a game with actual matchmaking not the OW encounters of Naval Action.  The advantage of the rounds and matchmaking means that you can get in another match where that doesn't happen. In Naval Action when a PvP ship sinks your boat in such a manner the player is stuck begging on Nation chat for someone to fight the PvP-er keeping them penned into the port and if/when that doesn't happen they log out - not something we want players to be doing.  


Mods can have a place in Naval Action: Legends as maybe that works better with the PvP and matchmaking system but in regular NA I just think it doesn't add anything to the gameplay and instead detracts from it. If someone can please tell me though - what do they add to gameplay - I would love to hear it!

Edited by Bjerg Bjergsson

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53 minutes ago, randommexi said:

really?  you think the mods are the problem?

 

nah man, its about pvp experience.  first time pvpers even if they have all the same mods, will probably lose anyway.  had nothing to do with the mods.  everything to do with you pvp skills and the things you've learned while fighting other players.

 

I think there should be a difference between pvp ship and a pve ship.  cause both require different skill sets to be successful.  and different mods.  

First part is basically correct, saling and fighting experience is 80% of a PVP battle.

But actually it is true that - now - in a ship crafted and fitted for PVE you cannot be effective at all on PVP and vice-versa. This does not incentivate people to try the "other" side of the game and that's - in my opinion - is not a good thing.

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1 minute ago, victor said:

First part is basically correct, saling and fighting experience is 80% of a PVP battle.

But actually it is true that - now - in a ship crafted and fitted for PVE you cannot be effective at all on PVP and vice-versa. This does not incentivate people to try the "other" side of the game and that's - in my opinion - is not a good thing.

you think all ships no matter their mods, should be able to compete in pvp and pve?  I disagree.

 

there are different stats needed to compete in pvp and pve.  for example, speed doesn't do much in pve.  however, in pvp it is life!  you need it!  Turning, same.  you need good turning to compete in pvp.

now pve, reload and armor... stack those = win!  now, they could work in pvp.  but not if you opponent had a boarding set up.  you'll probably lose.

I guess I like the diversity in ships and what they are set up for.  if I could set up a ship and it does everything, might as well remove mods all together and just assume every ship has them all.

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I think the real problem here is that oak planking is by far the worst planking in the game.  Even just using Crew Space is better.

can we have Oak planking made a proper planking already?

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4 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

I think the real problem here is that oak planking is by far the worst planking in the game.  Even just using Crew Space is better.

can we have Oak planking made a proper planking already?

totally agree, could buff crew space a bit too

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8 minutes ago, randommexi said:

you think all ships no matter their mods, should be able to compete in pvp and pve?  I disagree.

 

there are different stats needed to compete in pvp and pve.  for example, speed doesn't do much in pve.  however, in pvp it is life!  you need it!  Turning, same.  you need good turning to compete in pvp.

now pve, reload and armor... stack those = win!  now, they could work in pvp.  but not if you opponent had a boarding set up.  you'll probably lose.

I guess I like the diversity in ships and what they are set up for.  if I could set up a ship and it does everything, might as well remove mods all together and just assume every ship has them all.


So for a new player with 1 fighting ship and maybe 1 trade ship they are either going to lose at PvP or lose at PvE by that regard. How do you reconcile that? If they get jumped on the way to a PvE mission? With the current system in place the new player could be in a fast ship but easily get outpaced by a PvP built warship with speed mods. 

If you remove mods altogether or limit them to 1-2 (versus the FORTY-SIX that exist now) then you at least enable a bit more balance and lets ships play their roles a bit better. Diversity in cosmetics + ship type/play style would take over at that point. 

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If they get jumped on the way to a PVE mission, they press that reinforcement button and get two dreadnaughts spawned on each opponent. Are you actually playing this game?

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38 minutes ago, Bjerg Bjergsson said:

So mods only matter on the same skill level meaning.. mods do matter? I also hate to point out your experience as a pretty high skill level PvP player is not emblematic of a new player experience. ;) 
 

 

I do think mods are a problem - certainly not the only one. PvP experience is absolutely learned and the only way to do it is by playing and getting sunk and playing more. I've fought players in PvP and done alright and I've fought players in PvP and lost. The biggest difference I found when losing was the times I didn't feel I learned anything when I got crushed thanks to faster reloads and more maneuverability - it was noticeable. Not as noticeable a difference as the old exceptional mods were back in the day but enough. 

Ultimately that is my point. As rediii said mods make a difference. Maybe to him it only seems so on the same skill level but when the skill level is asymmetric then the mods will help even more. The difference for a new player between a close fight - or even a pitched battle - where they can see how they were defeated and understand the mistakes they made versus a battle wherein they were just outclassed at every level does not make them feel like they have a chance. 

I think of War Thunder in this regard. You can get matches where you get outplayed and that's that but then there are matches where you just get humiliated thanks to max upgrades etc - and that is in a game with actual matchmaking not the OW encounters of Naval Action.  The advantage of the rounds and matchmaking means that you can get in another match where that doesn't happen. In Naval Action when a PvP ship sinks your boat in such a manner the player is stuck begging on Nation chat for someone to fight the PvP-er keeping them penned into the port and if/when that doesn't happen they log out - not something we want players to be doing.  

no Indidnt say they matter much. Reloadrate isnt a reason you lose a duel. Only upgrades that make a big difference are:

- cartagena (nerfed now since you get 5% thickness with 15 pvp marks, very good

- french refit (masts) now also nerfed with that pvp mark upgrade

Or lets not say nerfed but its more accessible.

 

Thing is that people learn pvp wrong. They get a good ship with gokd upgrades, makes the ship expensive. Lime you said you learn pvp with sinking. So what should you do?

Get a hermione in teak bermuda or bermuda bermuda, put a gazelle on it and lets go. Face everything you see. Sinking is no big deal. When I learned pvp I sailed alone with a frigate to mortimer town countless times, getting sank or not didnt matter.

With all that propaganda saying you can only win with the best ship possible players actually believe that shit

 

How fo get better in pvp:

- sail alone in a cheap ship

- sink a lot until you sink enemies instead

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1 minute ago, Bjerg Bjergsson said:


So for a new player with 1 fighting ship and maybe 1 trade ship they are either going to lose at PvP or lose at PvE by that regard. How do you reconcile that? If they get jumped on the way to a PvE mission? With the current system in place the new player could be in a fast ship but easily get outpaced by a PvP built warship with speed mods. 

If you remove mods altogether or limit them to 1-2 (versus the FORTY-SIX that exist now) then you at least enable a bit more balance and lets ships play their roles a bit better. Diversity in cosmetics + ship type/play style would take over at that point. 

well, if he loses his basic cutter he can get another one for free.  cause that's what new players sail.  and like Quineloe said, call reinforcements....

to quote someone that doesn't know ship!

"I guess I like the diversity in ships and what they are set up for.  if I could set up a ship and it does everything, might as well remove mods all together and just assume every ship has them all. "

Removing all mods from the game or even limiting them does not change the fact that an experienced pvper will still crush that new guy.  In fact, you could give the new guy better mods then the experienced pvper and he'd still lose.  mods don't make the difference, only when equal skilled players are fighting do they have any effect.  and at that, they know how to mod, so I doubt they'll lose cause of their mods.

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one thing I can agree with is, some mods seem to be completely useless.  while others are very strong.

I think the devs should take a look at what mods are being used and what ones are not.  and then rebalance the mods.  cause if a mod is never being used *AHEM* False keel *AHEM*. Then what is the point of them being in the game.

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