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Suicidal Tendencies

Using other nations to tag and green on green in battle

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Was in a fight last night before server down time where Aster (US player) Tagged Thamure to prevent tag from one of our guys as we had just been in a battle with him for an hour and half and had burned up all his sail repairs.  While we didn't have a problem with the tag as we where able to join the fight.  I was able to get him from 82% sails down to 59% before folks started to leave cause of damage and the fact the Bellona wasn't helping us (the one that left early had to go and couldn't stay).  Again this isn't a problem.

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The problem came when I did a sail repair and tried to escape since I had the area control the British Player [CKA] Thamure blocked me.

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Than he fired a broad side at Aster and completely demasted me.

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Map showing distance from us and Aster in battle when he blocked me.

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He than moved away and stopped.

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Than did nothing as Aster moved to me and boarded and captured my ship.

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Logs will show he fired several times at Aster but was random and did no real damage.  They where purely working together and while i might not have escaped any way, him blocking and demasting me made sure there was no chance at all I could escape.

In the fight before hand the same group of players we where chasing involved (though did not get into the above fight as they ran in different direction chasing others that weren't sunk in the first fight).

[BORK] Amiral Lou tagged F4ppinFr3nzy which was in there group to avoid a counter gank fleet that was hunting them.

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F4ppinFr3nzy moved between our fire line to block shots several times taking the chain shots in place of others in there original hunting group while never firing upon them.

In this picture you can actually see the chain shot aiming for  Amiral Lou's ship he moved in front of.  The only damage he did in the fight was against Amiral Lou's Bellona when we had some one in boarding with him he started to try to sink it.   

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Again we had no problem with the tag as we where able to join and still fight the other ships.  We have a problem with the person on our side trying to stop us from doing such.  The players tried there best not to do any green on green but some of it happen cause of the players mention above trying to block shots and prevent us from stopping his buddies.

I would like to link another tribunal which is still under review as this is starting to become a habit to avoid fights.  Again the problem wasn't the tag as we will deal with that, in this case it's the actions of helping the other side get away or stop the chasers.   There might need to be an official post about this type of behavior and ruling by Devs on it.

 

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While I am not here in the examples, these players have reported multiple times of pirates attacking each other to do the exact same thing that these folks did - to make it more difficult, if not impossible, to sink them.

Only difference is a pirate v pirate is an outlaw battle.

Something that aster, thamure, fappin, and amiral can't do is create am outlaw battle....where the battle is open for the whole duration.

In your examples, yes green on green is illegal, there probably should be consequences, but pirates do the exact same thing, only with the advantage of being able to get reinforcements at any time while also having no green on green damage bypassing any "illegal" actions through a mechanic in game that is rather silly in being broken.

Whatever the outcome for these individuals? Fine so be it - but these same individuals see pirates doing this all the time, but no consequences to it. Something has to change.

I would advocate that none of these folks be banned, warned? Definitely. But banning these folks would only make the experience of others worse.

You want players to pvp against, and yet I am just worried that the only people left will be pirates bored because the folks that pvp were all banned.

Edited by Teutonic

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The problem isn't the Tagging each other as I stated several times. It's the blocking and doing things to prevent you from fighting the other team than the one you joined.  We sunk two ships in the fist fight (King of Krowns and Amiral Lou).  The problem is when they use there fact they are green to block you and cause Green on Green when they should be leaving the fight or fighting on your side. If you part of green team you should be fighting or exit the fight if you have no plan to be involved.  They weren't leaving instead they where using there ships to help there buddies get away.  While in Pirates vs Pirates your allowed to shoot any one so it doesn't matter if we try to block or help each other out.  They can still shoot us or join the fight any way.   If that had been an outlaw battle we would of Sunk F4ppinFr3nzy and been done with it.

The other thing is in both fights the guys tagged had Smuggler flags on, so it made them listed as Pirate Smuggler.  So we didn't get to choice what side we could join.  We could only join the pirate smuggler side.

As for punishments that is up to the Devs to pick I'm presenting a case of abuse of a game mechanics and the green on green for the first part as he blocked me and than demasted me simply to stop me from escaping while I was on his team.  

@Teutonic also can you please follow the rules of a Tribunal.  If you are not involved you shouldn't be posting.  Thanks.

You can only reply to tribunal threads if you are:

-The reported

-The reporter

-Someone with additional proof and/or information.

 

In those other causes they could of joined the Pirate vs Pirate fights and fought who ever they wanted.  Again this isn't about the tagging each other, this is about the blocking and green on green in the fights caused by such blocking and the actual green on green in the fight.  I have no issue with the fact that they tagged each other. It's the other actions they did while in the fights that need to be reviewed by the Devs.

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4 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Honestly disappointed as a US man, but not surprised.

The mechanics allow, and even promote this type of play. Everyone does this sort of cheese when they have the opportunity and you can't blame em. All is fair in love and war. Battle mechanics need looking at to fix this.

The tagging isn't the problem it's there actions while in the fight.  We where still able to get two of them and prob would of had Aster too if we had more time.  He was out of sail repairs when the clock ran out.  If we didn't have to dodge a green boat in the way he prob would of been ran down too.

@Teutonic I have a problem with your past as you keep throwing around the Ban word.   I never once said anything about a Ban or punishment, that is up to the Devs to decided. If it's there first offence I believe the rules state a warning only, if it's not well again that is up to the Devs.

I'm also asking and the reason I posted the other thread that is under review a call on the Devs about this type of behavior like they have done in the past about other things.   Stealing loot in a battle is gray area that you can do green on green if you warn them not to do it first is an example of a ruling they made cause of tribunal in the past.   Seems it's time to make a calling about folks that self tag to get out of a tag by others and than how they should act in such battles if they are on the other side of the team.

For example a simple ruling would be if they do not leave the fight or stay out of it than they can be subject to green on green, but this is a very shady area here that can be abused, so would prefer more making it a reportable offence just like green on green damage is. 

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Twas a messy affair with a bit of questionable activity on both sides. I very much did tag the other nat to give us a better chance of escape although this is something that is used by all sides and is not to uncommon. I do not condone any sort of green on green but again it did happen on both sides.4E60849BAF6834956FE786EEB6A2A9F7C7B1C0CA

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3 hours ago, Teutonic said:

I must make it clear that I am in no way defending the actions of the reported players here, only trying to help others understand why they would do what they did and that other players have done the same in the past.

Cheating is cheating. 

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10 hours ago, Suicidal Tendencies said:

Was in a fight last night before server down time where Aster (US player) Tagged Thamure to prevent tag from one of our guys as we had just been in a battle with him for an hour and half and had burned up all his sail repairs.  While we didn't have a problem with the tag as we where able to join the fight.  I was able to get him from 82% sails down to 59% before folks started to leave cause of damage and the fact the Bellona wasn't helping us (the one that left early had to go and couldn't stay).  Again this isn't a problem.

?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-forma

The problem came when I did a sail repair and tried to escape since I had the area control the British Player [CKA] Thamure blocked me.

?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-forma

Than he fired a broad side at Aster and completely demasted me.

?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-forma

Map showing distance from us and Aster in battle when he blocked me.

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He than moved away and stopped.

?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-forma

Than did nothing as Aster moved to me and boarded and captured my ship.

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Logs will show he fired several times at Aster but was random and did no real damage.  They where purely working together and while i might not have escaped any way, him blocking and demasting me made sure there was no chance at all I could escape.

In the fight before hand the same group of players we where chasing involved (though did not get into the above fight as they ran in different direction chasing others that weren't sunk in the first fight).

[BORK] Amiral Lou tagged F4ppinFr3nzy which was in there group to avoid a counter gank fleet that was hunting them.

?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-forma

F4ppinFr3nzy moved between our fire line to block shots several times taking the chain shots in place of others in there original hunting group while never firing upon them.

In this picture you can actually see the chain shot aiming for  Amiral Lou's ship he moved in front of.  The only damage he did in the fight was against Amiral Lou's Bellona when we had some one in boarding with him he started to try to sink it.   

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Again we had no problem with the tag as we where able to join and still fight the other ships.  We have a problem with the person on our side trying to stop us from doing such.  The players tried there best not to do any green on green but some of it happen cause of the players mention above trying to block shots and prevent us from stopping his buddies.

I would like to link another tribunal which is still under review as this is starting to become a habit to avoid fights.  Again the problem wasn't the tag as we will deal with that, in this case it's the actions of helping the other side get away or stop the chasers.   There might need to be an official post about this type of behavior and ruling by Devs on it.

 

I'll start at the top. After being attacked by aster, my side was joined by a considerable gank force.  Not wanting to be a part of such a dishonorable battle, I attempted to leave. I was promptly blocked and near rammed by the bellona and trincomlee that joined my side. Not wanting to participate in such a fight and being prevented from leaving by the "friendly" players I sat around.  Shortly there after the bellona and trinc left, the hermione and surprise brilliantly shown of by Aster. 

 

Thats when the match started, between me and aster, with under 15 minutes to server shut down.  But we have Suicidal Tendencies here.  Who had been demasted and had just started to repair sails.  As I moved in to a preferential position to attack Aster, and actually have some fun before the servers were off, Suicidal Tendencies moved to ram me.  Clearly to instigate this. What you see in the second picture is a very clear ram by Suicidal Tendencies, on me. If you look at his wind, you can see I was going to tack through the wind, in a bellona that is built with main mast force bonuses.  That is a very deliberate move, its obvious, it takes time, and you can easily shift a small ship like a prince around it.  But instead Suicidal tendencies decided he'd like to ram me, so seeing this I attempted to avoid it. You will notice in the picture my sails are depressed and I was attempting to back and have him miss me, but he sought that side out like a missile. It then took well over a minute to get the little bugger off my sides, as he turned right into me to stay there.

 

Onto the next accusation of friendly fire, he was demasted eventually by me, but not intentionally. After getting him off my sides, I was going to move and quickly see if i could board aster in the last moments the server was up. But suicidal made sure to block, and try to force friendly fire whenever possible. Directly prior to when he was demasted I had done a run by on his windward and placed well over 10 leaks on his belly to pull as much crew out of a position to be in boarding prep. Then moved with the wind to come across asters bow, rake and finish his sails. But of course suicidal is there to force a green on green.  Placing himself in a position between me and aster well on a course to ram me again.   With little time left on the server, and with a perfect shot at a bow rake on aster.  I made the decision to attempt to shot over his mast and across aster's.  Unluckily one or two of those balls did hit the top tip of his masts and managed to remove them, but it was unintentional. If I wanted to do that i had all of the opportunities in the world while he was stuck to my side after he rammed me.   You will take note he does not show a picture of the demast, or even a picture of the map during that, because it does not support the case he is trying to create.

 

After all of that and being thoroughly frustrated and annoyed by Suicidal Tendencies actions I was not going to assist when he was boarded. It was his own fault and his own desire to have that happen.  I did decap the prince, to keep our score board clean, and would have moved to finish aster.  But with the server about to hit 1 minute till down and I after playing naval action for a long time, didnt want to test what would happen if my ship was still in a battle instance when it went down.

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The shot I posted was just as the battle started no more then 2 mins into it. They joined my side and I assume thought I was an enemy

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8 hours ago, Teutonic said:

While I am not here in the examples, these players have reported multiple times of pirates attacking each other to do the exact same thing that these folks did - to make it more difficult, if not impossible, to sink them.

Only difference is a pirate v pirate is an outlaw battle.

Where is the Tribunal case of Pirate vs. Pirate outlaw battle being used to escape OW fight? (the one case was dismissed due to Open battle argument)

The one case I remember with NAT vs Pirate related to RvR resulted in an account being suspended.

Are you arguing for precedent or do you want your friends to receive preferential treatment from the judges?

Pirate vs. Pirate outlaw battle works MUCH differently than NATION vs NATION.

- Battle remains OPEN for entire 90 minutes, making it a terrible choice near enemy ports. 

- Single join circle with result of much closer engagement ranges.

Please stop omitting these critical differences.

Quote

Onto the next accusation of friendly fire, he was demasted eventually by me, but not intentionally.

Admission of guilt and intentional demasting in Green on Green is bannable unless you can prove that you had no other choice.

The only exception is in matters of loot where the ally is attempting to steal loot from a ship you sank, and even then you have to provide screenshots with warnings issued and ignored. No loot involved in this case.

The accused had plenty of options that excluded shooting at their own team - for example they could have captured evidence for their own tribunal report, and left the scene. No one forced the accused to completely demast an ally - removing the bottom masts is particularly suspect in the case of a shoot-through or accidental friendly fire, because in a bigger ship that requires aiming down at the water, at the smaller ally, and not up at the far away opponent. 

The fact that the accused is offering weak excuses instead of admitting demonstrated guilt should result in a ban to serve as a warning for others.

p.s. The accused should have the option to admit guilt, apologize to the community for abuse of exploit, and create a precedent of self-enforcement. If they fail to comply with that option and wait for judge's decision I will demand the precedent to be sustained and bans to be issued consistent with previous cases. I heard the argument that removing people from the game at such low population levels is bad - bin that. The game will lose even more people if garbage behavior is allowed and enforcement isn't consistent. 

p.p.s. I will delete this post if Tribunal rules are maintained by all sides. If misleading statements are made by non-involved parties I will have to counter them particularly since I have a similar case being reviewed. Silence for all or open influence for all. 

Edited by Tenet

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2 hours ago, Thamure said:

I'll start at the top. After being attacked by aster, my side was joined by a considerable gank force.  Not wanting to be a part of such a dishonorable battle, I attempted to leave. I was promptly blocked and near rammed by the bellona and trincomlee that joined my side. Not wanting to participate in such a fight and being prevented from leaving by the "friendly" players I sat around.  Shortly there after the bellona and trinc left, the hermione and surprise brilliantly shown of by Aster. 

 

Thats when the match started, between me and aster, with under 15 minutes to server shut down.  But we have Suicidal Tendencies here.  Who had been demasted and had just started to repair sails.  As I moved in to a preferential position to attack Aster, and actually have some fun before the servers were off, Suicidal Tendencies moved to ram me.  Clearly to instigate this. What you see in the second picture is a very clear ram by Suicidal Tendencies, on me. If you look at his wind, you can see I was going to tack through the wind, in a bellona that is built with main mast force bonuses.  That is a very deliberate move, its obvious, it takes time, and you can easily shift a small ship like a prince around it.  But instead Suicidal tendencies decided he'd like to ram me, so seeing this I attempted to avoid it. You will notice in the picture my sails are depressed and I was attempting to back and have him miss me, but he sought that side out like a missile. It then took well over a minute to get the little bugger off my sides, as he turned right into me to stay there.

 

Onto the next accusation of friendly fire, he was demasted eventually by me, but not intentionally. After getting him off my sides, I was going to move and quickly see if i could board aster in the last moments the server was up. But suicidal made sure to block, and try to force friendly fire whenever possible. Directly prior to when he was demasted I had done a run by on his windward and placed well over 10 leaks on his belly to pull as much crew out of a position to be in boarding prep. Then moved with the wind to come across asters bow, rake and finish his sails. But of course suicidal is there to force a green on green.  Placing himself in a position between me and aster well on a course to ram me again.   With little time left on the server, and with a perfect shot at a bow rake on aster.  I made the decision to attempt to shot over his mast and across aster's.  Unluckily one or two of those balls did hit the top tip of his masts and managed to remove them, but it was unintentional. If I wanted to do that i had all of the opportunities in the world while he was stuck to my side after he rammed me.   You will take note he does not show a picture of the demast, or even a picture of the map during that, because it does not support the case he is trying to create.

 

After all of that and being thoroughly frustrated and annoyed by Suicidal Tendencies actions I was not going to assist when he was boarded. It was his own fault and his own desire to have that happen.  I did decap the prince, to keep our score board clean, and would have moved to finish aster.  But with the server about to hit 1 minute till down and I after playing naval action for a long time, didnt want to test what would happen if my ship was still in a battle instance when it went down.

How did I ram you when I'm only going 3.3 knts with 1/4 of a mast?   You have full sails up in that picture and not set to cut through irons.  You had clearly a lot of room to do what you want with me moving at a snail crawl of 3.3 knts max.   Second if you look at the fact you said I tried to block you Board.  How do I block some one when I'm totally demasted and going zero knots?   You demasted me and sat there while Aster moved up and than boarded me.  Than per the last picture you could of easily pulled him when he got out of the board so I'm calling you on that too.   Man you can try to spin it how every you want but i have facts with logs and pictures.  You have only your words.  

Also if you mention the Bellona and Trinc, they left at the very start of the battle.  This battle had started over 45 mins before the end of server down time.  When I was boarded it was 10 mins before.  That is 15 mins of doing things since they left the battle.  Devs will be able to check the battle logs of when they left and what happened.  

I'm not going to add more to this as I presented the facts and proof with logs and pictures.  I'll leave it for the devs to review.   

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