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LeBoiteux

6th-Rate plan challenge

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6th-Rate plan challenge 

There is no official current gap inbetween the ingame 6th-Rates and no expected new ship in the near futur apart from HMS Pandora and Le Requin (24 x 9-pdr), two very nice and awaited additions.

Nonetheless, some could be added inbetween the exiting ones some day.

So here is the challenge for NA plan-digging fans : post your favorite plans that might fill in the gaps below.  Gaps are shown in terms of broadside weight for guns.

Table 1 shows the gaps. Table 2 shows some possible armament combinaisons for each gap :

 

yKLlUiH.png?1

 

hNiT4NO.png

Abbreviations

GD : gun deck ; WD : weather deck ; fc : forecastle ; bw : broadside weight

Calculation of a broadside weight :

bw = (number of guns on one side of the gun deck x caliber) + (number of guns on one side of the WD/fc x caliber).

Ex : broadside weight of a frigate carrying 20 x 9-pdr + 14 x 6-pdr = 10 x 9 + 7 x 6 = 132 pdr

Expected post format :

  • Ships name, date, ship characteristics,
  • plans
  • gap(s) to fil : 1, 2  and/or 3
  • historical armament and suggestion(s) for ingame armament

Have fun :)

Edited by LeBoiteux
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Ill elaborate in the morning, the plans of the first few suggestions.

First 2 Mars 1781, later captured and becomes Orestes. Armament 24x8 pdr, ingame 9pdr = 108 bw , ingame 6pdr = 72 bw

59e139fbed142_24-gunMars17811781Orestes(2).thumb.jpg.e50546959af1c321d9f3c541b5493537.jpg59e139fb0f7f9_24-gunMars17811781Orestes(1).thumb.jpg.f1117ae62053e736f9f185897b348e9d.jpg

Havik, information, 18 guns, unsure to the armament as of now, either 6 or 9. 9x9-pdr = 81 BW.

59e139fa03101_18-gunHavick1784.thumb.jpg.9354b13e643fd0c6e17d3b91725f491b.jpg

 

More will follow suit.

 

 

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Nice post.

11 hours ago, SteelSandwich said:

2 Mars 1781, later captured and becomes Orestes. Armament 24x8 pdr, ingame 9pdr = 108 bw , ingame 6pdr = 72 bw

Can we really turn a late XVIII-th century 9-pder into a 6-pder ? Just a question to open up the debate :)

11 hours ago, SteelSandwich said:

Havik, information, 18 guns, unsure to the armament as of now, either 6 or 9. 9x9-pdr = 81 BW.

Can't the history of ship building of the nation (ie comparison with other national ships) help to try and deduce an historical armament ? 

For example, in France, '99%' corvettes built after say 1779 (American war of independence) carried 8-pdr.

Edited by LeBoiteux

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5 hours ago, LeBoiteux said:

Nice post.

Can we really turn a late XVIII-th century 9-pder into a 6-pder ? Just a question to open up the debate :)

Can't the history of ship building of the nation help to try and deduce an historical armament. For example, in France, '99%' corvettes built after say 1779 (American war of independence) carried 8-pdr.

On the quick research I did she probaly had in Dutch service her 9 pdr, but in british service she had 6 pdr. As far I am aware of the British had a tendancy to underpower Dutch ships by one caliber. She was captured at the surrender of Saldanda bay in 1796. Wil post later my sources.

Btw note the 3 different names they used for her.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitulation_of_Saldanha_Bay

https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=1733

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_sloop_Havik_(1784)

Edited by pietjenoob
Added the sources
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We need more choice both in types of French, Dutch or British or Spanish cannons, as well as the amount we can put on the ship
or the kind ,..say but the type of cannon like long or carronade
We need more choice to value as they used to do to keep the ship, including seaworthy
or to keep the ship in its role for other uses than was originally intended

 

more types of cannons are needed there is a difference between Dutch /French and the English as a counterpart for the same class , we just don't see it back in the game for the different nation ships 

say a french

A French ship equipped with English cannons is actually very strange: 

also, nobody seems to notice that ......

they all make calculations but in the end, they are all wrong from the beginning...... 

 

if we talk cannons we have to talk about the right cannon on the right ship

If we are talking about cannons then we should talk about the type of cannon type ship 

atm we are not doing that,.... its a flaw

 

just wrong cannons on the wrong ship at the wrong moment in ship time 

iam afraid and i am sure 

I'm sure the Dutch ship (wreker class) is equipped with English gun(in this game)
which will give a distorted view of the true value of the weight of the gun
Also the exchange of English to Dutch weapons will not occur
because it does not exist in the game
Probably one of the reasons that the ship is not in the game
but where there is another nation, where this occurs again

 

to address this current issue 
This can be really pulled by upgrading the amount of shuffled weights from, for example, 24 pounds to 30 pounds on the lower decks

or from 12 to 18 for example

Edited by Thonys

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Descubierta

Spanish

1789

9-pdr corvette

qsrpzl.jpg

Historical armament (data from @D. Federico de Gravina y N )

  • built to carry (source ?): 22 x 8-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (100-pdr)
  • armament for the Exploration by Alejandro Malaspina : 14 x 6-pdr +  2 x 4-pdr (46 pdr)

Suggestion for an in-game armament : gap 3 between USS Niagara (90 pdr) and HMS Pandora (105 pdr)

  • 22 x 9-pdr (99 pdr)
  • 20 x 9-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (102 pdr)
  • 20 x 9-pdr + 2 x 6-pdr (96 pdr)

Info, drawings and plans : http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/6819-descubierta-spanish-corvette-with-plans/

Edited by LeBoiteux

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27 minutes ago, Sella22 said:

You can't leave this amazing privateer out:

What a nice ship !!!! 

Unfortunately in regards to the Challenge, from threedecks.org, her armament was : 12 x 9-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr + 6 x 4-pdr (84 pdr), giving an in game broadside weight : 12 x 9-pdr + 12 x 6-pdr = 90 pdr = USS Niagara:)

Did I miss something ?

But what a nice ship !

(edited)

Maybe with 12 x 9-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (84 pdr) ? (same bw as the historical one)

Edited by LeBoiteux

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5 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

What a nice ship !!!! 

Unfortunately in regards to the current challenge, from threedecks.org, her armament was : 12 x 9-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr + 6 x 4-pdr, giving an in game broadside weight : 12 x 9-pdr + 12 x 6-pdr = 90 pdr = USS Niagara.

Did I miss something ?

But what a nice ship !

Her British armament is way less I think. 

Why is her in game armament 12x9pdr and 12x6pdr?  I don't believe that she can carry that much :P

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4 minutes ago, Sella22 said:

Her British armament is way less I think. 

Why is her in game armament 12x9pdr and 12x6pdr?  I don't believe that she can carry that much :P

well maybe she can , but the broadside can differ 

a french gun is different in  comparison to British gun even when it is in the same class value

Edited by Thonys

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18 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

 

Maybe with 12 x 9-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (84 pdr) ? (same bw as the historical one)

Yes this could deffinetely work :D

6 minutes ago, Thonys said:

 

a french gun is different in  comparison to British gun even when it is in the same class value

I think that this has been addresed in the past by admin as well. All of the foreign calibre cannons are converted to their closest British counterpart. I believe that the differences in weight are minor but dont quote me on that. 

Edited by Sella22
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19 minutes ago, Sella22 said:

Yes this could deffinetely work :D

I think that this has been addresed in the past by admin as well. All of the foreign calibe cannons are converted to their closest British counterpart. I believe that the differences in weight are minor but dont quote me on that. 

13 minutes ago, Thonys said:

 

a french gun is different in  comparison to British gun even when it is in the same class value

4

i would really  love to hear from the devs, how they addressed  this situation in the past and going to balance it in the future

but for now, i cannot find it back or aware of a balance feature...in this matter

but i would rather see a specific type cannon for this  specific nation ships(the guns are just different on loading powder perhaps a specific powder  loading can be put in the game (then the guns classes don't have to be changed)

for example, a Dutch ship is loaded with Dutch powder weight and a British ship is loaded with British powder weight or balls 

Edited by Thonys

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8 minutes ago, Thonys said:

i would really  love to hear from the devs, how they addressed  this situation in the past and going to balance it in the future

but for now, i cannot find it back or aware of a balance feature...in this matter

What about creating a dedicated thread about that ? This current one is not about the 'origin' of NA guns. :)

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The French corvette La Créole

 
The La Créole was a 24-gun corvette of the French Navy. Her plans were drawn by P. M. Leroux in 1827. She was launched in Cherbourg in May 1829. The ship took part in the French invasion of Mexico in 1838, and most notably in the Bombardment of San Juan de Ulloa before French troops disembarked and captured the city of Veracruz.

 
There is a fine shipyard model on display at the Musée national de la Marine in Paris which is shown by many photos in the book of Jean Boudriot, Modeles Historiques, Musée de la Marine, ISBN 2 903 179-24, A.N.C.R.E. Paris 1997 (in French). 

Armament:


The ship model was built to plans of Jean Boudriot.

gIMG_5168.jpg

Reference with more pictures and details.

http://www.modelships.de/La-Creole/Corvette-La-Creole.htm

 

 

Edited by z4ys
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1 minute ago, LeBoiteux said:

What about creating a dedicated thread about that ? This current one is not about the 'origin' of NA guns. :)

probably yes it would be a good idea ,but we are talking here about guns an weight 

 

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13 minutes ago, Thonys said:

probably yes it would be a good idea ,but we are talking here about guns an weight 

Concerning this thread, rules are simple :

  • irl 4-pdr becomes in-game 6-pdr
  • irl 8-pdr becomes in-game 9-pdr

whatever their nationality. :)

So a French corvette with irl say 22 x 6-pdr + 2 x 4-pdr (70 pdr) might carry in game :

  •  22 x 6-pdr + 2 x 6-pdr and her broadside weight becomes 11 x 6 + 6 = 72 pdr,
  • 22 x 6-pdr (bw = 66 pdr)

And bw are calculated with guns not carronades for the sake of simplicity and as OP gaps concern guns.

Edited by LeBoiteux

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13 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Concerning this thread, rules are simple :

  • irl 4-pdr becomes in-game 6-pdr
  • irl 8-pdr becomes in-game 9-pdr

whatever their nationality. :)

So a French corvette with irl say 22 x 6-pdr + 2 x 4-pdr (70 pdr) might carry in game :

  •  22 x 6-pdr + 2 x 6-pdr and her broadside weight becomes 11 x 6 + 6 = 72 pdr,
  • 22 x 6-pdr (bw = 66 pdr)

always good to clear up this misunderstanding

but in the meantime brits become a little overpowered on speed by weight, what comes from the textbooks for doing sailing speed 

but is see you point ...

Edited by Thonys

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@Malachi What about :

1) HMS Mymidon (1781) : http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/6183-myrmidon-1781-british-22-gun-ship-with-plans/?tab=comments#comment-116997

  • Historical armament : 20 x 6-pdr + 2 x 3-pdr (63 pdr)
  • Suggestion for in-game armament (66 pdr < gap 1 < 78 pdr) : 20 x 6-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (72 pdr)

2) Christiania (1774)http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/12971-christiania-danish-20-gun-frigate-1774-with-plans/?tab=comments#comment-235745

  • Historical armament : 20 x 8-pdr + 10 x Falquonettes (1-pounders) (bw = 85 pdr)
  • Suggestion for in-game armament : 90 pdr < gap 3 < 105 pdr
    • 20 x 9-pdr + 2 x 6-pdr (96 pdr)
    • 20 x 9-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (102 pdr)
    • I guess the best armament would be : 20 x 9-pdr (90 pdr) ; but we've already had USS Niagara...

 

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6 hours ago, z4ys said:

The French corvette La Créole

Armament:

La Créole is a marvelous French corvette. Her broadside weight in terms of carronades (as that's what she carries) is just a little bit heavier than that of USS Niagara.

But she's a bit out of NA time frame (1820). And what could she carry on her gundeck as 24 guns to be also in gap 3 ?

Edited by LeBoiteux

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1 minute ago, LeBoiteux said:

La Créole is a marvelous French frigate. Her broadside weight in terms of carronades (as that's what she carries) is just a little bit heavier than that of USS Niagara.

But she's a bit out of NA time frame (1820). And what could she carry on her gundeck as 24 guns to be also in gap 3 ?

I would give her 9pds like the niagara

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On 14/10/2017 at 8:31 PM, z4ys said:

I would give her 9pds like the niagara

12-pdr ?  but with 24 x 9-pdr, she'd be already heavier than HMS Pandora and like Le Requin that might already carries 24 x 9-pdr.

I don't say La Créole shouldn't be in game (I love her), just that I don't know how to make her fill in one of the 3 gaps of this thread. :)

Edited by LeBoiteux

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Looking for the whole plan of the parts below from a French frigate built in c. 1700-1705 without name, 28 guns. The central part is missing. Her plan is at the Danish National Archives.

Her figurehead seems to represent a mythological winged(?) male figue wearing an helmet (Hermes/Mercury ?). 

 

Unknown name

French Light frigate

1700-1705

Historical armament : 20 x 6-pdr + 8 x 4-pdr (76 pdr)

Suggestion for in-game armament :

  • 20 x 6 + 4 x 6-pdr (72-pdr) (gap1)
  • 20 x 6 + 8 x 6-pdr (84-pdr) (gap 2)

Source : Boudriot, History of the French frigate, p. 60

fmjEq3Z.png

JZLctIs.jpg

Edited by LeBoiteux

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15 hours ago, LeBoiteux said:

@Malachi What about :

1) HMS Mymidon (1781) : http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/6183-myrmidon-1781-british-22-gun-ship-with-plans/?tab=comments#comment-116997

  • Historical armament : 20 x 6-pdr + 2 x 3-pdr (63 pdr)
  • Suggestion for in-game armament (66 pdr < gap 1 < 78 pdr) : 20 x 6-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (72 pdr)

2) Christiania (1774)http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/12971-christiania-danish-20-gun-frigate-1774-with-plans/?tab=comments#comment-235745

  • Historical armament : 20 x 8-pdr + 10 x Falquonettes (1-pounders) (bw = 85 pdr)
  • Suggestion for in-game armament : 90 pdr < gap 3 < 105 pdr
    • 20 x 9-pdr + 2 x 6-pdr (96 pdr)
    • 20 x 9-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (102 pdr)
    • I guess the best armament would be : 20 x 9-pdr (90 pdr) ; but we've already had USS Niagara...

 

Christiania´s sisterships Tranqvebar, Alsen and Færøe had an armed quarterdeck, so they might be a better match (4 to 6 4-pounders) :)

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Summing up of the proposals so far

Gap 1 : Snow (HMS Ontario) - Ratlesnake heavy

tn3yOQb.png

 

Gap 2 : Ratlesnake heavy - USS Niagara

3I64a0l.png

 

Gap 3 : USS Niagara - HMS Pandora

NTU0TRS.png

 

Any correction (mistakes, oversight...) and new suggestion are welcome. :)

Edited by LeBoiteux

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