Poll: Port battle limitations - formerly known as port battle diversity.

[George Washington]

Concept for 'Let Clans Customize PB'.

This is how I see it can work. By using triangle it can help you find what you are looking for.

-Maximum given BR is displayed in the circle (Red)

-Pyramid is cut in half to represent (threshold) line.

-Threshold line once crossed will start consuming points starting from the very top of pyramid (1st rates). The more ships you add after threshold line the less larger ships will be allowed in Port Battle. 

*If you cross Threshold on  1st rates then 2nd rates will shrink. If you cross Threshold on 2nd rates, 1st rate numbers will shrink.

How can we figure out the maximum BR? Well we need to start from the top and fill half the pyramid with perfect balance. This could be:

2 -1st rates

2 - 2nd rates

5 - 3rd rates

4 - 4th rates

6 - 5th rates

6 - 6th rates

Calculate the total sum. ex. Using BR chart take the highest BR value per rate group 2x650, 2x450, 5x400 etc.. find out max Threshold BR. Tune the numbers to get the best result. 

This will fill half the pyramid and won't cross Threshold line. If you start increasing numbers in any rate group, then starting from 1st rates all maximum values will start shrinking (bleeding). 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by George Washington

[George Washington]

4 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

@admin

My proposal, after doing some maths and combinations:

Line ship PB: 7500 BR

Frigates PB: 3500 BR

Shallow water PB: 1100 BR

 

BR from ships take from here: http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=Ships

Per side? or both sides combined. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by George Washington

[George Washington]

14 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

@admin

 

Line ship PB: 7500 BR

Frigates PB: 3500 BR

Shallow water PB: 1100 BR

 

Line ship PB: 7500 BR = 11 Santisimas (maxed out BR)

Frigates PB: 3500 BR = 14 Idefaticables (maxed out BR)

Shallow water PB: 1100 BR = 15 Mercurys (Maxed out BR)

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by George Washington

[Liq]

3 minutes ago, George Washington said:

Line ship PB: 7500 BR = 16 Santisimas (maxed out BR)

Frigates PB: 3500 BR = 10 Idefaticables (maxed out BR)

Shallow water PB: 1100 BR = 8 Mercurys (Maxed out BR)

Shallow and Frigates need work. 

my opinion:

shallow does need change, frigate not necessarily - some lighter frigates are also fun  

EDIT: Nope neverimnd, I got the maths wrong, shallow is still 15 mercs. Having some schooners in there aswell might be fun  

Edited October 17, 2017 by Liq

[George Washington]

2 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

No, you are wrong. Do your maths again.

 

7500 / 650?

3500 / 350?

1100 / 135?

Mistyped santis. TY

Edited October 17, 2017 by George Washington

[Liq]

Just now, George Washington said:

7500 / 650?

3500 / 350?

1100 / 135?

you're looking at the indefatigables crew, aswell as the merc - it should be:

3500 / 250 = 14 indefatigables (heavy frigates, could have some lighter ones in there)
1100 / 70 = 15 mercs (maybe have some schooners in there )

[George Washington]

2 minutes ago, Liq said:

you're looking at the indefatigables crew, aswell as the merc - it should be:

3500 / 250 = 14 indefatigables (heavy frigates, could have some lighter ones in there)
1100 / 70 = 15 mercs (maybe have some schooners in there )

Thanks, you are correct. Long day.

Edited October 17, 2017 by George Washington

[George Washington]

Line ship PB: 7500 BR = 11 Santisimas (maxed out BR)

Frigates PB: 3500 BR = 14 Idefaticables (maxed out BR)

Shallow water PB: 1100 BR = 15 Mercurys (Maxed out BR)

So, let's split these values in half and try to see the remainder left and what other ships can be used to fill it. 

5 - Santisimas (3750 +- BR left)

7 - Indefaticables (1750 +- BR left)

7 - Mrcs (550+- BR left)

Edited October 17, 2017 by George Washington

[George Washington]

4 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Im also taking into account the usual online players of an "average" clan when a PB is happenng, around 12 guys online more or less.  This way those 12 guys will have a chance to defend its port alone if they want to take the risk.

Then Devs need to just limit PB to 10 vs 10, and add bonus unlock for 15 vs 15 and 25 vs 25 as I suggested earlier. Clans then could customize PB setup using the pyramid that I posted. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by George Washington

[vazco]

2 hours ago, Farrago said:

 

Except just limiting ship class will tend to revert to everyone using the same ships. Limiting by BR allows teams to be creative and play to their strengths or the enemy's weakness. Yes, it's more complicated but provides for so much more creativity.

An option for this would be to increase BR of ships that are being used the most often and lower those that are not used. This way ships used the least would get cheaper, in result making them more powerful and more desirable. A self-regulating system.

 

This could happen slowly, so that unused ship becomes more efficient in cost eg. after 3-4 weeks.

Edited October 17, 2017 by vazco

[Teutonic]

31 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

I think maybe it is too much variety. We will face that variety when some clans decrease its BR of their ports a certain % of their choosing.

I suppose?

I'm wanting to find a balance between ship variety being used in port battles (and overall throughout the game).

My intention of having a lot of variety was to allow players and groups of all ranks, play style, and ship preference to enjoy the RvR (port battle) activity.

But as I have said in the past, BR balance on ships absolutely has to happen.

[Guest]

Personally I think we need to fix BR before we start thinking about the BR cap. I think the BR of 1st rates isn't high enough right now.  There also other groups, such as 4th rates, that need some attention and balancing. 

[MassimoSud]

I think it's necessary to review the formula for calculating the BATTLE RATING of each single ship.
I have prepared a spreadsheet where I have weighted the importance of the following features in port battles:
Broadside Long cannons I gave a weight of 36%
Broadside Carronades I gave a weight of 8%
Hull (side) I gave a weight of 36%
Crew I gave a weight of 10%
Speed I gave a weight of 5%
Turning I gave a weight of 5%
In the attachment sheet you can change the weight of the individual characteristics (feel free to make a copy to do that).
I'm not sure about the Hull data and anyway it can be corrected.
I hope it can be useful.
Good job developers.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19xBCpR8x1Ojvwy1M_4leBYCONfv5etLoSluZbiGu7es/edit?usp=sharing

Edited October 17, 2017 by MassimoSud

[Riparian]

For the old 1st rate battles, I would stay mostly with SOL's.

The BR limit should make it possible to deploy fleets of something like 5 1st/2nd rate SOL's, 15 3rd/4th rate SOL's and 5 frigates or smaller.

 

And for the old 4th rate battles, lets get two BR limits.

One for couple of 3rd rates and mainly 4th rate ships. And other for frigates supported by few 4th rates.

[Salty Dog.]

6 hours ago, admin said:

we started to work on the feature

please propose numbers and ideas on the max and min limits if you have any.

I Think the numbers should be based on the number of 1st or 4th rates ships allowed into port battle should be 10/15/20.

So either you can bring in 15 first rates or a mix of ships up to 25.  However I think the biggest problem is how BR is set up.  Currently it would make no sense to bring anything but 1st rates.

I think BR should be adjusted so that we come up with a ratio that would be a fair fight.  Or have a "Port Battle Value" system.  

  As a very rough outline....

1 first rate = 1 Second Rate AND 1 fourth rate = 2 third rates = 4 fourth rates=8 fifth rates.

So in BR terms:

1st Rate = 1000 

2nd Rate = 750

3rd Rate = 500

4th Rate = 250

5th Rate = 125

Then limit "First Rate Port battles" to 10k/15K/20K and "fourth rate port battles" to 2500/3750/5000.  

Edited October 17, 2017 by Salty Dog on Global

[The Spud]

First I thought it would be better to only limit by BR, but I have a strong feeling that it'll just end up being the max amount of 1st rates vs the max amount of 1st rates for that BR.

If the BR allows you to field 15 first rates, its going to be hard to beat by any composed fleet that is not 15 first rates. Also historicaly I believe 3rd rates were the bulk of a lineship fleet, and there were only few 1st and 2nd rates.

Maybe we should just say that the total BR of 1st and 2nd rates combined, can not be bigger than the BR rating of 3rd rates and below combined?

For 10.000 BR this could be:

6 x 1st rate (santi) (3900br)

2 x 2nd rate (900br)

10 x 3rd rate (bellona) (4000br)

4 x 4th rate  (1000br)

200 br left to spend on 5th rate and MB.

This could be for lineship battles, when it comes to 4th rate battles the BR difference between a cerb and a wasa is only 150br, which is the same BR difference as between a buc and a vic. But a buc vs a vic stands a good chance, but a cerb vs a wasa stands as good as non in a port battle.

Would remove the 4th rate and lineship battles and only do shallow and deep water battles.

When it comes to BR however, we'll need to do some fine tuning on the BR rating of some ships. Like the Wasa, and the BR rating of the 2nd rates in relation to the 1st rates, specialy the Buc.

[The Spud]

1 hour ago, rediii said:

If BR makes it more logicalnto take 1st rates but less instead of 3rd rates its a fault of BR values.

BR should determine how effective a ship is in battle as good as possible so it would be almost the same if you take 1 high BR ship or 2 lower BR ships.

 

since you cant balance out ships (historical etc.) you have to balance it with BR value first and as soon as something good is found you can balance craftingeffort/cm cost according to BR.

 

In the end BR is the thing that is important here.

 

Also you guys have to keep screeningfleets in mind. stop looking for short time mechanics and think about how your BR value would work with 1500 players on the server. A portbattlefleet with 4000 BR approaching a portbattle is dead meat then

I agree that BR should be like that, but there is a difference in 1 ship vs 2 lower BR ship, and 10 ships vs 20 lower BR ships.  The flaws of 1st rates is less played out when they are in group.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by The Spud

[Corona Lisa]

Please keep in mind the 3 circle system doesnt work with a low amount of players.

In case we gonna get some low-number PBs (like 10vs10) you could consider deleting 1 circle for some ports

[Thonys]

.well:

 1. allowing clans bring diverse fleets within a total Battle Rating (BR) limit = good

 2. Allow port owners reduce the BR limit (for money) in the ports they own - creating smaller port battles giving some space to small clans/nations     = BAD..!

.building in restrictions > ends up in people who can not join ...

.possible cheats 

.restrictions and limitations (always bad)

.unknown features for beginning players 

.complicated gameplay

.money issue

keep it simple.

i can, however, agree on player limit like (minimal) 5 vs 5 

6 vs 6 - 7vs7  -  8vs8-  etceteraetcetra......

but not br ,if the attacker takes fewer ships(players) it's their choice...

Edited October 18, 2017 by Thonys

[George Washington]

16 hours ago, EliteDelta said:

Personally I think we need to fix BR before we start thinking about the BR cap. I think the BR of 1st rates isn't high enough right now.  There also other groups, such as 4th rates, that need some attention and balancing. 

If you start stretching BR on 1st rates you will open up huge gaps that still need to be filled with ships. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by George Washington

[The Spud]

1 minute ago, George Washington said:

If you start stretching BR on 1st rates you will open up huge gaps that still need to be filled with ships. 

I think they could easily up the 2nd rates a bit, a buc is only slightly worse than a Vic, still the BR difference is 150. While a bellona and a buc are only 50 apart. They could ad 50 to each of the 1st rates.

Make like Vic 650, ocean 675, santi 700, and than we have a buc at 550 and pavel at 500. Bellona stays 400. Which looks like a better spread looking at the stats.

Would also raise the Wasa to 325 for obvious reasons.

 

[The Spud]

9 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

My opinion about clans decreasing BR for PB.

The max should be 20% for lineship PB, 15% for frigates PB, 10% for shallow water.

The number of 25vs25 players should remain. We cant afford to loose epic battles with lots of ships, even they have low BR.

Would even take less, it should be a marginal gain, if its too much it'll be used every time without exception in any PB that matters.

[GhastlyGhost]

17 hours ago, MassimoSud said:

I think it's necessary to review the formula for calculating the BATTLE RATING of each single ship.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19xBCpR8x1Ojvwy1M_4leBYCONfv5etLoSluZbiGu7es/edit?usp=sharing

Excellent work^^

Firstly we need change of ALL BR. We can`t have pathological situation that ALL 4th rate + Indef have the same BR. Even if we got new PB no one will use  Wappen or Inger because we have Wasa that can beat 3rd rate. After that we should start thinking about new PB mechanic.

 

[Red Dragon 13]

Admin, please do not forget:

2. 2. Allow port owners reduce the BR limit (for money) in the ports they own - creating smaller port battles giving some space to small clans/nations

   • Yes - allow clans to decide on the total size of the port battle                                                                                  245
      
     245
   • No - full freedom should remain in game (let small clans die out)
   • 52
     52

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[Rebel Witch]

the devs just keep winning !! dont stop!!