Poll: Port battle limitations - formerly known as port battle diversity.

[Liq]

1 minute ago, Grundgemunkey said:

not thought about it but with current player base size and the fact that not all port battles are full at the moment 25 v 25 is adequate ,,increasing the port battle size is prefferable to reducing it ...

Hmh not sure id agree on that. 

But yah as teutonic said above, its about limiting the BR and not amount of ships. So you can either get a well mixed fleet in or go for med-bigger ships if you dont have the players

[Grundgemunkey]

1 minute ago, Liq said:

Hmh not sure id agree on that. 

But yah as teutonic said above, its about limiting the BR and not amount of ships. So you can either get a well mixed fleet in or go for med-bigger ships if you dont have the players

the game is suffering from small player base as it is ... imo complicating things with variable port battle fleet sizes .. who can sail what ships in a port battle .. while may seem attractive to the hardcore few .. will confuse and demotivate the majority

at the moment a port battle is 25 v 25 .. its either 1st rate  4th or shallow ... if you want to partake its pretty easy to understand what ship you need where it should be and when

the BR system means that potentially you may need a ship of every rate either attacking or defending so you can fill a slot depending on whats required ,,, it will be chaos ... and thats assuming people can be bothered

just seems a lot of effort to satisfy a few hardcore players who want to see a more diverse fleet

if players want to sail other class of ships in a port battle make more port battle types most regions have 4-5 towns .. so have 1. 1st rate port    1, 2nd/3rd rate .   1. 4th rate and   1 shallow

mixed rate BR based port battles wont be fun if your in a  5th rate getting battered by 1st 2nds 3rd and 4th rates .. you might do it once or twice then wont bother anymore

same reason you wouldnt enter a formula 1 race in a rally car

[Liq]

10 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

the game is suffering from small player base as it is ... imo complicating things with variable port battle fleet sizes .. who can sail what ships in a port battle .. while may seem attractive to the hardcore few .. will confuse and demotivate the majority

at the moment a port battle is 25 v 25 .. its either 1st rate  4th or shallow ... if you want to partake its pretty easy to understand what ship you need where it should be and when

the BR system means that potentially you may need a ship of every rate either attacking or defending so you can fill a slot depending on whats required ,,, it will be chaos ... and thats assuming people can be bothered

just seems a lot of effort to satisfy a few hardcore players who want to see a more diverse fleet

if players want to sail other class of ships in a port battle make more port battle types most regions have 4-5 towns .. so have 1. 1st rate port    1, 2nd/3rd rate .   1. 4th rate and   1 shallow

mixed rate BR based port battles wont be fun if your in a  5th rate getting battered by 1st 2nds 3rd and 4th rates .. you might do it once or twice then wont bother anymore

same reason you wouldnt enter a formula 1 race in a rally car

In order to join a PB you already have to be in a clan and on the friendlist of other clans - so clans will inform players on how it works

I say we need diversity - 25 v 25 vic is nor realistic nor does it serve for different possibities of engagements

As for the 5th rate experience - of course you are not supposed to go linefighting with a Santisima - but to be a support to your firepower tanks and try to be as much of a pain in the ass for enemy lineships or take out hostile frigs trying to do the same to you

Edited October 20, 2017 by Liq

[Grundgemunkey]

2 minutes ago, Liq said:

In order to join a PB you already have to be in a clan and on the friendlist of other clans - so clans will inform players on how it works

I say we need diversity - 25 v 25 vic is nor realistic nor does it serve for different possibities of engagements

As for the 5th rate experience - of course you are not supposed to go linefighting with a Santisima - but to be a support to your firepower tanks and try to be as much of a pain in the ass for enemy lineships or take out hostile frigs trying to do the same to you

yeah i understand that ...it would be cool .. but a fight in a port battle is not the same as ow ... two suprises are not going to be able to sit and stern rake a 1st rate like they do in ow .. they will get smashed by something heavier .. doesnt seem like fun to me .. but lets test it and see ..

trouble with continous testing is that when people leave because of changes they dont all come back

[Grundgemunkey]

additionally are the circle captures going to be based on BR  too  otherwise the it will be far better having 25 basic cutters sailing around in a port battle dominating and kiting the circles with their numbers .. than having 10 first rates  lumbering around

[Barbancourt]

3 hours ago, rediii said:

25 vs 25 will not happen very often anymore...

It doesn't happen very often already

[PaladinFX]

I voted double Yes.

PBs are stale and fairly boring now and need variety of ship types to make them more interesting and fun as I have stated elsewhere in this forum. IMO both options put forth by @admin will bring the needed variety to PBs that is sorely needed.

I also like the fact that varied ship types in PBs mean that newer players have a chance to be involved in Line Ship PBs because they could be involved in a lower rated ship under this new system. This will make our game more inclusive and fun for newer players and hopefully help with player retention.

[PaladinFX]

3 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

• Lynx - 20
• Cutter - 25
• Privateer - 30
• Pickle - 40
• Brig - 50
• Prince de Neufchatel - 50
• Snow - 60
• Navy Brig - 70
• Rattlesnake Heavy - 90
• Mercury - 80
• Niagara - 90
• Cerberus - 100
• Renommee - 110
• Surprise - 140
• Hermione - 160
• Frigate - 170
• Santa Cecilia - 160
• Belle Poule - 180
• Pirate Frigate - 190
• Essex - 190
• Trincomalee - 200
• Endymion - 210
• Indefatigable - 220
• Constitution - 250
• Ingermanland - 260
• Wappen von Hamburg - 260
• Agamemnon - 270
• Wasa - 360
• 3rd Rate - 350
• Bellona - 400
• St. Pavel - 450
• Bucentaure - 470
• Vic/Santi/Ocean- 625

 

My revised proposal from the BR of the tournament.

Nice job! What you've done with the H Rattler, Wasa/3rd rate/Bellona makes a lot of sense. I think rating Vic/LO/Santi all the same doesn't make sense tho, need to be a small difference between them, maybe leave them at 600/625/650 respectively. 

[PaladinFX]

Yeah but the reasoning of why the Wasa needs to have BR at or just above a 3rd rate, ie broadside & side armour, when applied to the Vic/LO/Santi means that those three 1st rates shouldn't have same BR I would say. They need to be different but not by much, they are three different ships with three different strengths as you say, but when it comes down to the basics they are different on broadside and armour HP.

[Guest]

Okay so in theory.

- Being able to reduce the BR limit means that you need fewer players to hit the cap.

- Circle control then has to be done via BR instead of playercount (seems most fair in a mixed fleet scenario, and in a potential 25v10 person fight it'd be an easy win if the 25 guys just go in small ships and cap.

 

In a BR-limit scenario, does this not just effectively mean that, say, a port is simply reduced from what is currently a 1st rate port BR to a 4th rate port BR, from a 4th rate port BR to a shallow water port BR and so on?

If that's the case, then we can still have 3 BR tiers to move inbetween instead of the mess of a dozen different port+BR reduction combinations.

[Teutonic]

49 minutes ago, Aegir said:

Okay so in theory.

- Being able to reduce the BR limit means that you need fewer players to hit the cap.

- Circle control then has to be done via BR instead of playercount (seems most fair in a mixed fleet scenario, and in a potential 25v10 person fight it'd be an easy win if the 25 guys just go in small ships and cap.

 

In a BR-limit scenario, does this not just effectively mean that, say, a port is simply reduced from what is currently a 1st rate port BR to a 4th rate port BR, from a 4th rate port BR to a shallow water port BR and so on?

If that's the case, then we can still have 3 BR tiers to move inbetween instead of the mess of a dozen different port+BR reduction combinations.

I agree in the sense of 2 things

1. Capturing the circles has to be based on BR

2. We should test BR limits without the ability to lower it via port ownership as I don't believe we need further BR reductions when we have a BR limit already.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

2. We should test BR limits without the ability to lower it via port ownership as I don't believe we need further BR reductions when we have a BR limit already.

Indeed, it'd be worth testing that first.

On the one hand, the BR reduction mechanic might be completely unnecessary if it is found that a fleet of 10-15 larger ships is stronger than a mixed fleet of 25. On the other hand, I'd consider that as a negative thing since that would make it desirable for all PBs, even those capable of fielding 25 players, making PBs even more inaccessible and at risk of elitism when a port hinges on just a few guys.

And, well, if the full 25-person playercount is to be used in such a scenario, it would probably be in the form of filler - half the fleet being a swarm of small fireships and/or mortar brigs, which will either be hilarious or ridiculously powerful

[Teutonic]

I can only imagine the paranoia of 1st rate users as small 6th and 5th rates creep up on them, only to blow up and cause untold damage.

But you are right. I want players to choose a few ships, a lot of ships, or something different and for all of them to work in some way.

If we find as players that 10 1st rates beats 20-25 players in smaller ships, then either the br of ships needs to be adjusted, the ships themselves are too powerful and stats need to be balanced, or there is something that we don't see that's causing the issue. I wouldn't then say the test is a failure, only that further adjustments need to be made.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Teutonic

[Aquillas]

14 hours ago, Intrepido said:

• Lynx - 20
• Cutter - 25
• Privateer - 30
• Pickle - 40
• Brig - 50
• Prince de Neufchatel - 50
• Snow - 60
• Navy Brig - 70
• Rattlesnake Heavy - 90
• Mercury - 80
• Niagara - 90
• Cerberus - 100
• Renommee - 110
• Surprise - 140
• Hermione - 160
• Frigate - 170
• Santa Cecilia - 160
• Belle Poule - 180
• Pirate Frigate - 190
• Essex - 190
• Trincomalee - 200
• Endymion - 210
• Indefatigable - 220
• Constitution - 250
• Ingermanland - 260
• Wappen von Hamburg - 260
• Agamemnon - 270
• Wasa - 360
• 3rd Rate - 350
• Bellona - 400
• St. Pavel - 450
• Bucentaure - 470
• Vic/Santi/Ocean- 625

 

My revised proposal from the BR of the tournament.

Good job. I tried and made similar BR proposal, which gave similar results.

May Belle Poule and Wappen BR should be reduced.

[Aquillas]

In another post, I propossed this:

On ‎18‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:40 PM, Eléazar de Damas said:

Additional remark: I suggest to modify some ships.

• Lynx---------------------: BR 30 (min OK)
• Renommee-----------------: BR 110
• Surprise-----------------: BR 120
• Hermione-----------------: BR 120
• Frigate------------------: BR 140
• Belle Poule--------------: BR 110 (suggest to increase HP and armor)
• Pirate Frigate-----------: BR 160
• Essex--------------------: BR 140 (suggest to increase HP or armor)
• Trincomalee--------------: BR 150 (suggest to increase maneuverability)
•  
• Constitution-------------: BR 250
• Agamemnon----------------: BR 260
• Wasa---------------------: BR 350 (this cheap ship will replace all others! Please insert some weakness)
• 3rd Rate-----------------: BR 240 (unused ship by players. Suggest to increase speed compared to Bello, as her armament is weaker.)
• Bellona------------------: BR 370
• Victory------------------: BR 550
• L'Ocean------------------: BR 600
• Santisima----------------: BR 650 (max OK)

 

The main qualities of the Belle Poule was a very good manoeuvrability (as most of French designed war ships) and a capacity to bump cannon balls to the sea due to the form of her hull.

This is not reflected in game, and the Belle Poule is in game less performing than a Surprise, probably main reason why this ship is almost unused by players.

See the complete discussion and the calculation file here: Topic: Proposition-for-new-brs

Edited October 21, 2017 by Eléazar de Damas

[Slim McSauce]

Does BR really matter? It's just a number that doesn't  mean very much

[Malachy]

On 10/20/2017 at 7:04 PM, Teutonic said:

I can only imagine the paranoia of 1st rate users as small 6th and 5th rates creep up on them, only to blow up and cause untold damage.

But you are right. I want players to choose a few ships, a lot of ships, or something different and for all of them to work in some way.

If we find as players that 10 1st rates beats 20-25 players in smaller ships, then either the br of ships needs to be adjusted, the ships themselves are too powerful and stats need to be balanced, or there is something that we don't see that's causing the issue. I wouldn't then say the test is a failure, only that further adjustments need to be made.

We had a battle with maybe 5 or 6 seconds, 2 or so 3rd, 1 1st and 12 or 13 4th and 5th. We sank or captured 12 oceans and 3 bellona. Lost like 6 ships biggest lost ship was a 3rd. So yes, heavy ships should fear larger groups of lighter ones.

[King of Crowns]

this would be the best thing to happen to NA since land was introduced. give the little guys a way to play the game. give the 10 man clans content. this is what needs to happen. pls do this. 

[firebool]

 

please, for when are you going to establish this rule in the game ?, we are eager to try and sure to push port battles to a level of fun for much older players.

[EL LOCO]

The developers did just the opposite of what they should have done to retain numbers.   Instead of limited nations to historical nations SPAIN FRANCE and ENGLAND...they expanded it to nations that never even saw the West Indies.  At the same time...limiting port battles to clans.   Wow.     Now..very few people interact.  Very few battles.  top player base is never above 500. 

 

Way to kill a game 101.   Ukrainians.  When you done with this game.  We here in Seattle will buy it for you for 50k.. Seattle is the gaming capital of the world.      

[Hodo]

39 minutes ago, EL LOCO said:

The developers did just the opposite of what they should have done to retain numbers.   Instead of limited nations to historical nations SPAIN FRANCE and ENGLAND...they expanded it to nations that never even saw the West Indies.  At the same time...limiting port battles to clans.   Wow.     Now..very few people interact.  Very few battles.  top player base is never above 500. 

 

Way to kill a game 101.   Ukrainians.  When you done with this game.  We here in Seattle will buy it for you for 50k.. Seattle is the gaming capital of the world.      

 

On the topic of the BR changes.  The 3rd rate is often ignored because of cost, and lack of real use.  Then you have the OP pirate frigate vs the Essex, and finally the Wasa.  

Seeing as the Constitution was nerfed a dozen times before another 4th rate was finally added, but instead of returning the Constitution to its glory, they left it an overrated 5th rate. 

I guess that will get fixed when they do the crowdfunding campaign for the US ship rebalance. 

[Teutonic]

@admin any updates to this?

Clan alliances too maybe?

[Cmdr RideZ]

I checked some lists you guys made and I was wondering...

For example:

3rd rate has 20-50 BR less than Bellona.  Do you think that 20 points is enough to make you sail 3rd rate instead of a Bellona?  Or will 50BR be enough to make you ask your whole clan to sail 3rd rates instead of Bellonas?

Lists were full of similar cases, just pointed one here.

Behind the scenes you probably have to make some kind of example fleets with different setups.

If you have 5000 BR battle and you can pick 10xBellona or 11x3rd rate, I would definitely go with Bellonas.

If compared with another list you guys made, the same 5000BR battle, that would give 12xBellona vs 13x3rd rate.  I would definitely go with Bellonas.

Dont know if any player is ready to do this kind of comparison, but devs definitely should do.

edit.

Easy way to balance is probably something like...

How many 3rd rates you would want before you would change from 10x Bellonas.

For example, lets say you want 15x 3rd Rate to change from 10x Bellonas.  If Bellona BR is 400, 3rd rate BR would be then 265.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Cmdr RideZ

[Cmdr RideZ]

Port Battle BR limits should be compared with different fleet BRs.  See what kind of fleets fit in and make sure that there are multiple equally good options.