Foreign clan alliances

[Guest]

Looking forward to seeing mercenary clans and more fluid semi-alliance arrangements.

The fluidity is handled, making it player-based rather than the terribly static scenario we had with the voting system (where the entire nation was chucked in as one, and it would take weeks if not months to change things up). What remains is whether or not we need a safeguard to make sure that it doesn't turn into a 'half the server vs other half of the server' scenario.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Guest

[Archaos]

I voted NO. If they are going down this route then they may as well do away with nations and introduce pure clan warfare where individual clans can make alliances.

This system as proposed will just be too messy. For example a British clan is attacking a Danish clan port, but they are friendly with a certain Danish clan and invite them to the battle. If the friendly Danish clan can only enter to assist in the port battle, what about the screening action? How would the friendly Danish clan be treated outside of the port battle, would they be dragged into a battle on the Danish or British side? What if you have friendly clans from multiple nations and invite them all to the battle? The whole thing starts getting a bit messy.

I think a system with the current nation safe zones being the only national regions and the rest up for grabs by individual clans. The clans may display the flag of the nation they started in (this could also be changed to allow individual company flags) but in reality they are all individual companies and can set any other clans as neutral, friendly or enemy. The ports they capture should only be able to be set to either friendly or neutral as no one would deliberately allow their port to be open to an enemy. To allow for such a system it would be better to allow for smaller port battles for some ports to cater for smaller clans, port battle sizes could be graded to the importance of the ports.

[Hawkwood]

6 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

You mean if only pirates could war other pirate clans, or only pirates can be made foreign allies to act as mercenaries for nations? No neither would really work on their own. Nations need some way to ally and friendly clans is the best way. But with allies with enemies you need enemies with allies or else you're tipping the balance of the sandbox which is never good.

Pirates need an overhaul, more than can be put into a single gameplay mechanic

Nations could be allies ONLY if 1 nation has 1 ally at the time. Last time voting for allies made two huge blocks fighting epic, neverending war, which led to nothing.

This feature should just ALLOW CLANS from ANY nation to be FRIENDLY to your clan, and participate in a Conquest. Which is a good thing, considering the overwhelming force of Sweden at PvP EU.

[Captain Lust]

7 minutes ago, Aegir said:

half the server vs other half of the server

As long as both sides are well balanced this sounds good to me, tho i agree having more parties makes things more interesting. The 50/50 split could be way easier to balance...

[qw569😳]

@admin

I have a question.

What happend if

• Clan A (FR) attack port that has ownner clan B (GB). Clan B add clan A to friendlist.
• Clan A (FR) see that clan B (GB) do hostility mission. Clan A add clan B to friendlist.

I don't want see this feature.

I want contracts for defend or attack another ports.

Edited October 4, 2017 by qw569

[Anolytic]

15 minutes ago, qw569 said:

@admin

I have a question.

What happend if

• Clan A (FR) attack port that has ownner clan B (GB). Clan B add clan A to friendlist.
• Clan A (FR) see that clan B (GB) do hostility mission. Clan A add clan B to friendlist.

Clan friend list would not affect hostility I believe. Only who can enter PBs. Meaning that the only thing that would happen in the first scenario is that Clan A would be able to join the PB they set on either side.

@Archaos makes some very valid points though. This is the real headache.

If it was implemented we would probably be best off just removing screening game-play. Alternatively one needs to be able to form battlegroups with friendly clans in other nations. And as long as you are in a battle group with nationals of another nation you need to be able to engage in OW players from your own nation. Last alternative would be make a zone around PBs where everything is free-for-all and anyone can tag anyone, even same-nation nationals.

I'd be interested to see an elegant solution to this problem. I'm not sure there can be one. 

If no solution is presented there is only a matter of time before the following scenario becomes a reality:

Clan A has a beef with Clan B from their own nation.

Clan A moves their 3 alts to another nation, makes a clan there and in the middle of the night when nobody is there to see clan A's alts grind hostility for Clan B's port. 

Clan A's alt clan sets Clan A on their friendlist. 

Clan B shows up with 25 ships for the PB and 25 ships to screen. 

Clan A sails right past the screening, with no chance of getting tagged, and enters the PB that was set by Clan A's alt clan. Not a single player from Clan A's alt clan shows up to the attack. The defending screeners from Clan B sit there and can do nothing as the clan from their own nation sails past them and enters on the hostile side in a PB against them.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Anolytic

[Slim McSauce]

22 minutes ago, Cortez said:

This feature should just ALLOW CLANS from ANY nation to be FRIENDLY to your clan, and participate in a Conquest.

This is the root of the problem I'm trying to describe.

Hypothetically, imagine you are in GB and the nation consist of you and one other clan, your clan is clan A their clan is clan B

Clan B decides to ally with a US clan. Clan B decides they like the US more than they like GB.

Clan B tells you that they're working for US now, and will be giving them all of their half of GB ports in the next few weeks.

Unless you're able to directly attack Clan B and regain control of ports from them they can lock you out of half the nations ports, give them to your enemies, and even go so far as directly kill you in battle, and you can't retaliate at all on your own terms without breaking the rules.

There HAS to be a counter balance to allies with enemies

The Occam's razor way to do it without gross micromanaging of every little thing in the game is enemies with allies

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[The Spud]

1 hour ago, rediii said:

They gained trust on the enemy side and betrayed them this way. Enemy side has to put trust into them and make the clan a friend first. Happened in history several times and should be also possible in this sandbox game. Things like this make history

True. Although i'm prety sure this will be brought up again at some point, just mark my words

I like the possibility for some back stabbing, and some last minute surprises. I can allready imagine clans spying eachother.

But like you said, can for example swedes fight swedes? Looks kinda hard to me if you can't tag em in OW, but they can fight you in the PB?
After the battle that clan will be untouchable by you and can just do its thing as it has always done. So I'm assuming that won't be possible.

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by The Spud

[Hawkwood]

32 minutes ago, Archaos said:

This system as proposed will just be too messy. For example a British clan is attacking a Danish clan port, but they are friendly with a certain Danish clan and invite them to the battle. If the friendly Danish clan can only enter to assist in the port battle, what about the screening action? How would the friendly Danish clan be treated outside of the port battle, would they be dragged into a battle on the Danish or British side? What if you have friendly clans from multiple nations and invite them all to the battle? The whole thing starts getting a bit messy.

Not really.

" Well if you were invited by both clans you will be able to join both sides. I am sure once it happens once another side will no longer add you to friends. " (quoting admin)

[Teutonic]

1 hour ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

If we do this we should also add the other side of the coin and add in-nation clan wars.

If a clan in your nation allies with the clan of an enemy nation you need to have the option fight them

Agreed.

This has to be done in order for it to work. Slim has said it earlier but if other clans in the same nation do not like the decision of the clan, well screw you, you can't do anything about it.

There needs to be a way for clans who do not agree with other clans in a nation to fight back. Those who think this should only be a pirate mechanic are not understanding the real issue here.

[Anolytic]

5 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Not really.

" Well if you were invited by both clans you will be able to join both sides. I am sure once it happens once another side will no longer add you to friends. " (quoting admin)

The problem that @Archaos is pointing at though, is that very quickly it will be easier to fight any war using mercenaries (/alts) from the nation you are attacking, than actually fighting the war yourself. Because those mercenaries will be impossible to screen out and impossible to revenge against as in open world they will be protected by their same nation status.

[Archaos]

4 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Not really.

" Well if you were invited by both clans you will be able to join both sides. I am sure once it happens once another side will no longer add you to friends. " (quoting admin)

I was not meaning an invite by both clans. I meant that outside the port battle, how would the Danish clan that was friendly to the British clan be treated as they approached the Danish port to be attacked. Would they be dragged into a screening battle on the side of the Danes or Brits? Would they be able to screen for the Brits against other Danish clans? What indicator do other Danes get to show the clan in question is hostile to them? Whats to stop the Brits setting up a port battle that is only attended by the friendly Danish clan so they cannot be screened out.

The whole system raises a lot of questions and hence why I say it would be a messy system. These questions have only considered 2 nations and once you throw more nations into the mix with different inter clan relations and the confusion becomes exponential.

[Hawkwood]

Just now, Anolytic said:

The problem that @Archaos is pointing at though, is that very quickly it will be easier to fight any war using mercenaries (/alts) from the nation you are attacking, than actually fighting the war yourself. Because those mercenaries will be impossible to screen out and impossible to revenge against as in open world they will be protected by their same nation status.

I guess there is no point attacking british port with a "friendly" british clan. I mean seriously, dualboxing with alts in a PB doesn`t seem very productive.

[Hawkwood]

1 minute ago, Archaos said:

I was not meaning an invite by both clans. I meant that outside the port battle, how would the Danish clan that was friendly to the British clan be treated as they approached the Danish port to be attacked. Would they be dragged into a screening battle on the side of the Danes or Brits? Would they be able to screen for the Brits against other Danish clans? What indicator do other Danes get to show the clan in question is hostile to them? Whats to stop the Brits setting up a port battle that is only attended by the friendly Danish clan so they cannot be screened out.

The whole system raises a lot of questions and hence why I say it would be a messy system. These questions have only considered 2 nations and once you throw more nations into the mix with different inter clan relations and the confusion becomes exponential.

Just explain me WHY should a british clan be friendly to a danish one, which is attacking a british port?

[Anolytic]

14 minutes ago, Cortez said:

I guess there is no point attacking british port with a "friendly" british clan. I mean seriously, dualboxing with alts in a PB doesn`t seem very productive.

Ask the BLACK clan on PvP Global if dualboxing in PBs is effective.

And you don't even need to dualbox. You do the hostility with accounts in one nation and do the actual PB with accounts in another nation. As long as the clans are on each other's friend list.

13 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Just explain me WHY should a british clan be friendly to a danish one, which is attacking a british port?

Hello there,

You must be new to the Internet.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Anolytic

[Archaos]

3 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Just explain me WHY should a british clan be friendly to a danish one, which is attacking a british port?

Trust me it will happen. There is already a lot of inter clan rivalry and that is without even considering alts, so if you allow friendly clans from other nations join your port battles I can guarantee that the scenario I raise will happen. I am not against the general suggestion, but I feel that to go this route they need to get rid of the idea of nations and go down the clan wars route, that at least would solve the confusion as then it would be clear that other clans were either friendly, neutral or enemy, which would dictate the ability to engage them. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Christoph said:

i hope pirates have the same options. we can help other nations for money. thats a good feature for pirate gameplay

Yah I hope so too cause we got totally screwed the last time they had alliances worse than the small nations but luckly on our server we had the RvR force to still back it.

@admin how about instead of trying to make these small new nations or adding in clans of other nations lets actually give pirates a mechanic of there own.  Lets make a Privateer Faction where you can get a Letter of Marque to work for another nation/clan.  If your not working under a LoM or your clanless than you are counted as a Oatlaw/Pirate.

You can even do it much like Merc units on MWO that get hired out to fight for House Factions for there version of clan wars.  You have 7 day contracts and you gain a +30% bonus to credit/xp if you join a low pop Faction or you can get -20% to credit/xp gained if you join a high pop nation.  This will help balance out nations way better than other system and lets be honest it's about time we just let the nations be and give some life to pirates.  

[Hawkwood]

3 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Trust me it will happen. There is already a lot of inter clan rivalry and that is without even considering alts, so if you allow friendly clans from other nations join your port battles I can guarantee that the scenario I raise will happen. I am not against the general suggestion, but I feel that to go this route they need to get rid of the idea of nations and go down the clan wars route, that at least would solve the confusion as then it would be clear that other clans were either friendly, neutral or enemy, which would dictate the ability to engage them. 

If the game mechanic does not allow british clan to join attack on british port, then problem is solved.

Which means, a clan from France might be friendly to attack british port, but if a british clan is friendly, Danes and friendly british clan should not be able to attack TOGETHER a british port.

Simple solution. ?

Edited October 4, 2017 by Cortez

[Teutonic]

11 hours ago, Archaos said:

Trust me it will happen. There is already a lot of inter clan rivalry and that is without even considering alts, so if you allow friendly clans from other nations join your port battles I can guarantee that the scenario I raise will happen. I am not against the general suggestion, but I feel that to go this route they need to get rid of the idea of nations and go down the clan wars route, that at least would solve the confusion as then it would be clear that other clans were either friendly, neutral or enemy, which would dictate the ability to engage them. 

Maybe.

But yes, I am in favor of clan v clan. Granted I do see what you're worried about and would likely happen, so there needs to be a way for groups to "fight back."

Edited October 4, 2017 by Teutonic

[Sir Texas Sir]

10 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

Ask the BLACK clan on PvP Global if dualboxing in PBs is effective.

And people still can't get it in there head when I been saying all this time you only been fighting 15-20 guys every time......lol

[Archaos]

Just now, Cortez said:

If the game mechanic does not allow british clan to join attack on british port, then problem is solved.

Problem is not solved. So the Danish clan attacking a British port is friendly with a Swedish and French clan and invites them to the battle, while the British defenders are friendly with another Swedish and French clan, so now you have 4 nations turning up outside the port, can the Swedes attack the Swedes and the French the French, if the one French clan attacks the Brits in a screening battle, who gets dragged in? In short it has the possibility to become a right mess and is open to gaming by the use of alts.

I am confused even in my example let alone how it would work in practice.

[Hawkwood]

Just now, Archaos said:

Problem is not solved. So the Danish clan attacking a British port is friendly with a Swedish and French clan and invites them to the battle, while the British defenders are friendly with another Swedish and French clan, so now you have 4 nations turning up outside the port, can the Swedes attack the Swedes and the French the French, if the one French clan attacks the Brits in a screening battle, who gets dragged in? In short it has the possibility to become a right mess and is open to gaming by the use of alts.

I am confused even in my example let alone how it would work in practice.

Why it shouldn`t work?

Battle groups were invented to solve more or less the screening clusterf....And like admin said, you will see then who`s friendly with whom.

[Hawkwood]

21 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

Hello,

you must be new to the Internet.

Show some respect BOY

Your opinion is not the only one which matters, if opinions here matter at all. We just talk, nothing else.

[Archaos]

4 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Why it shouldn`t work?

Battle groups were invented to solve more or less the screening clusterf....And like admin said, you will see then who`s friendly with whom.

I'm sorry if you cannot see the problems, but I have given enough examples and Anolytic has raised other issues with alts etc. But I can tell you in game people will use any advantage they can get and if this suggestion is rolled out as proposed there will be multiple tribunal posts about how people have gamed the system to get advantage.

It will end up being a system that will have to be patched and updated to close loopholes and end up leaving people upset with a bad system. It would be a lot simpler to just have clan warfare and remove the nations from RvR.

[Hawkwood]

3 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I'm sorry if you cannot see the problems, but I have given enough examples and Anolytic has raised other issues with alts etc. But I can tell you in game people will use any advantage they can get and if this suggestion is rolled out as proposed there will be multiple tribunal posts about how people have gamed the system to get advantage.

It will end up being a system that will have to be patched and updated to close loopholes and end up leaving people upset with a bad system. It would be a lot simpler to just have clan warfare and remove the nations from RvR.

Well basically my understanding is, that your friendly clan from another nation can fill up your slots in port battle. That`s all.

If the game mechanic DOES NOT ALLOW a british clan to participate in an attack on a british port, problems and issues are solved.