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Naval Composition and The Line up with regards to Gameplay of SoLs


Fluffy Fishy

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Something I have been thinking about recently, highlighted by the recent 2017 ship polls is that there is large bunch of somewhat strange choices with regards to the make up of the game's ship roster. The current game misses some pretty obvious holes, made more apparent through the vague dismissal that fails to cover the more unique aspects of what makes national navies individualistic in comparison to their contemporaries. To look at these examples of differences between navies, you see clear trends towards total types of ships when where you compare the most written about nations of Britain and France you see a clear fashion, especially notable amongst the larger ships. Typically Britain's battle fleet favoured small 1st rates not far off 100 guns, while the vast majority of their largest ships consisted of large 2nd rates, typically from 90-98 guns, these were supported by smallish 74s, and in earlier times 64s. This compares quite dramatically to France, who favoured large 1st rates, 80s and large 74s. There is also differences nation by nation on design choices, with the French ships being designed more for speed and sailing qualities where as British ships tended to be given larger holds for longer cruise times and builds more geared towards toughness.

Here is a chart I built a while baack so as to try and log size and composition of Fleets, this one specifically is the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic era;

Total Ships in Service First Rates Second Rates 80 guns 74 guns 74 guns (Large) 64 Guns 50 Guns 18pdr Frigate 12pdr Frigate 9pdr Frigate 20-24 gun Post Ships Quarterdecked Sloops Flush Decked Sloops Brig Sloops
1793 5 16 1 58 3 30 12 17 44 23 12      
1794                       33 0 20
1795               36            
1796 6 16 5 56 8                  
1797           30 12 47 59 23 17 45 10 36
1799 6 17 7 49 20 26 10 50 58 21   38 23 37
1801 6 16 8 50 20 27 10 69 44 11 23 34 25 45
1804           20 10 64 33 8   21 37 33
1805 7 14 6 43 24           23      
1808 6 11 7 51 30 21 9 91 43 9   52 34 105
1810           12 7   35 8   56 21 169
1811 7 12 7 62 28 9         15      
1812             5 107 25 3 29 51 13 145
1814 7 8 5 67 30 1 4 114 11 0   44 10 158
1815 8 7                        

Looking more clearly at this, there are some clear issues with the current line up and how it more seriously affects the gameplay of Naval action and now Legends too, especially amongst the larger ships. This chart fed back into the introductory paragraph leans towards exposing these real issues of composition, largely that 1st rates are far far too common, while 3rds and 2nd are really too limited in general, while no one is aware of the upper end balance of legends yet I hope the system does something to address this. Below I will attempt to break down how I see the current issues into rating and what needs to be brought in to hopefully go some way into fixing the problems.

1st Rates:
The current batch of first rates seems pretty good to me, although they could probably be slightly better balanced, as Ocean is quite notably superior to Santissima and Victory, this is despite Victory being widely regarded as the best 1st rate of the Century. Perhaps eventually we could see the addition of a more typical Spanish First rate such as San Josef (112) and the addition of one of the 100 gun Russian first rates such as the Ches'ma class.

The_Battle_of_Trafalgar_by_William_Clark

2nd Rates:
I see a fairly serious issue here in general, there's a lot that could be done to improve this area, often the heaviest ships of many navies the 2nd rate category is seriously lacking, although the currently in development Christian VII will somewhat help this. Its also slightly plagued by the issue that Bucentaure is made to be an 88 in the game not her typical design as an 80, which not only breaks from the French tradition of French 80s but also, somewhat frustratingly complicates the whole rating group, even having her as the slightly larger class variants with 86 guns puts less pressure on potential ships around her although seeing her as an 80 would be a breath of fresh air.

Moving on from the Bucentaure Issue the big screaming issue here is that there are no representatives from the famous British 2nd rates, the most natural fillers here are HMS Neptune (98) or HMS Barfleur (90), the more natural choice being HMS Neptune as Christian VII will nicely fit out the 90 gun ship armament slot. This rate is also the perfect  there is also great reason to include some Dutch ships here such as it seems to be the natural place for them with their heavy armaments, The Wreeker class (80) would go very well here. In a perfect world with all these ships developed we would have a nice array of 5 2nd rates, which leave us in a great place.

Less important additions would be perhaps the Portuguese ship Principe Real (90), HMS Fudroyant (80) and ᅠᅠKonung Gustav IV Adolf (84)

CStV-fff-William-Allan.jpg

3rd Rates:
Third rates are easily the most neglected group going, its almost sad to see the shameful neglect of this category, the backbone to nearly every major battle fleet of the time period. At least the problem is starting to see more acknowledgement but the lack of 3rd rate ports the current roster of 1.5 ships needs addressing seriously with the most priority. They are the most numerous battleships going, offering the best compromise between firepower, sailing qualities and cost. The reality is there should be at least some effort to include at least one example of a 74 from Britain, Spain, France, Portugal, Sweden, Denmark-Norway and The Netherlands, especially now legends is concerned too. 74s are the only gun rating I would like to see a good number of options with the same number of guns.

The most obvious hole in this category is the missing Téméraire, the lack of Téméraire is just bizarre and its almost shocking that one of the 120 ships haven't made it into the game yet. The most obvious choices from Spain are between Montañés and something like San Damaso. Portugal should probably have Rainha de Portugal which, the suggestion of Göta Lejon for Sweden seems like a nice one from the ship selection poll, while I would expect to see one of the Prindsesse Sophia Frederica Class from Denmark-Norway, there is also the 18 ships of the Iaroslav Class from Russia to bear in mind too. Having these ships would leave us with some nice options. This would give us a good 7 different 74 gun ships to pick from.

I'm personally not quite sure how to deal with the Dutch here, their large guns make them a little difficult to place, they also stick out quite a lot but any suggestions on how to fit in something here would be great, something like the Zeven Provincien or Prins Maurits would be nice to see though.

Moving onto smaller ships it would be nice to see a 70 or two make it, Spain, Denmark and Venice most widely used ships of this size, There are also a couple of Maltese ships here too. The possible options are things like San Jose from Spain, Jyyland from Denmark, and either Laharpe or Leon Trionfante from Venice. There is also Admiraal Tromp and San Salvatore from the Dutch Republic and Malta respectively.

bhc0512_1024x1024.jpeg?v=1449611180

4th Rates:
There currently seems to be two ends to the 4th rates in the game, some of these ships are more geared towards being thematic over legitimate choices. The current line up includes Constitution, Agamemnon, Wasa, Ingermanland and Wapen von Hamburg. it also covers quite a wide area of the game, realistically there are a number of 4th rates going and really the options are pretty endless. The group is about as endless as you can get, with 741 entries to pick from between 1700 and 1825 so really its a case of how thematic vs how combat assertive you want the choices to be. It would be great to see the proposed redesign of the Constitution happen, hopefully seeing her taken down to a more typical armament of 50-52 guns too.

There are some fantastic choices that have been suggested for this area though, The most notable current absence from the 4th rate group is HMS Leopard (50), the most famous of the 50 gun SoLs, it would also be nice to see a couple more 64s added, perhaps Rattivisan from Sweden and Athenienne from Malta. Some other ships I would really like to see make it here are the Dutch ship Delf (56), Venetian super frigate Fama (66) but we could add all kinds of ships from elsewhere like the Portuguese Principe da Beira (54) or Princesa Real (50). The grouping has fairly endless possibilities though, its a great place to give some time and love to minor nations, you could even consider adding an Ottoman entry.

Nicholas_Pocock_-_The_Battle_of_Copenhag

These are just my suggestions, although its quite an extensive list potentially doubling the number of ships that would be in the game so I dont expect to see many, if any make it from here but having enough ships to properly give choices in each class is something that really needs to be worked on, I have done my best to keep in mind all nations too but feel free to suggest where you see holes in the current line up. As ever Thank you for reading. :)

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2 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

Here is a chart I built a while baack so as to try and log size and composition of Fleets, this one specifically is the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic era;

The period from 1793 to November 1799 does not belong to the "Napoleonic era", an English term for : the Consulate (1799-1804) + the First French Empire (1804-1815) ;)

1789-1799 = another part of the French Revolution (you know when the young Republic guillotined Aristocrats and most of the royal family and fought alone against her royalist neighbours :P)

Edited by LeBoiteux
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1 hour ago, Surcouf said:

Exemple of composition of the vessels durring one battle.
The Spanish and French task force in 1779. In French, I'm sorry.

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/3297-références-diverses-et-variées/?do=findComment&comment=152554

Quick sum-up in English of @Surcouf 's thoughts about the Franco-Spanish naval fleet under the orders of M. Le Comte d'Orvilliers (Sizarga, July 1779) :

  • Spanish have very few 74-gun ships but lots of 70-gun ones,
  • Lots of French ships carry 74 guns. There are also some old outdated French 64-gun ships.
  • There are only 3 three-deckers out of 71 vessels ! These are : La Ville de Paris, La Bretagne and the Santiss. Trinidad

No misinterpretation, Surcouf ? :)

Edited by LeBoiteux
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The Spanish relied on their warships more for convoy duty during this period rather than duels between opposing squadrons and fleets; the French were better suited for such endeavours.  I covered this topic briefly in another thread: Spain was still smarting and recovering from the loss of the Armada years ago, and was more focused on protecting her overseas Empire and trade routes than challenging the British for naval superiority.  Therefore most of the Spanish vessels built of 70 gund were designed for convoy protection duties.  I need to reread a bit to discuss the larger 80 and 112 gun vessels, but Spain was definitely not interested in risking the loss of another fleet to British superiority.

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17 hours ago, LeBoiteux said:

Quick sum-up in English of @Surcouf 's thoughts about the Franco-Spanish naval fleet under the orders of M. Le Comte d'Orvilliers (Sizarga, July 1779) :

  • Spanish have very few 74-gun ships but lots of 70-gun ones,
  • Lots of French ships carry 74 guns. There are also some old outdated French 64-gun ships.
  • There are only 3 three-deckers out of 71 vessels ! These are : La Ville de Paris, La Bretagne and the Santiss. Trinidad

No misinterpretation, Surcouf ? :)

Yes that's it. You speak much better English than me so I trust you.

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First draft of d'Orvilliers' fleet from Surcouf's post :

92onh4W.png

This account has been hard to do and is approximative as :

  • The number of guns and name of the captain of some ships are unknown : Le Dragon and Venus du Fréol,
  • Some ships seem to have French names but Spanish captains, such as Le Phénix (Antonio Ulloa), Le Gaillard (Alberto Olaondo), Saint-Julien (Marquis de Médina), Le Diligent (Antonio Albornoz) and the other way around
  •  I'm not sure of the total number of ships,
  • Surcouf's post is dense :)

So there are certainly some (lots of ?) mistakes. Any correction would be welcome, @Surcouf. I can also PM you the Excel file. It might be even easier for you.

However, it might give a quite fair picture of d'Orvilliers' fleet. It especially shows as Surcouf pointed out that :

  • Spanish had lots of 70-gun ones,
  • Most of the French Sols were 74-gun ships. There were also quite a few old outdated French 64-gun ships.
  • There were only 3 three-deckers : La Ville de Paris, La Bretagne and the Santiss. Trinidad
Edited by LeBoiteux
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