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The Choice of Téméraire (unofficial side to the 2017 ship selection poll)


Fluffy Fishy

Which of the Téméraire would you most like to see?  

27 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of the Téméraire would you most like to see?

    • Téméraire
      15
    • Cassard (Large Variant)
      6
    • Suffren (Short Variant)
      2
    • Pluton (Small Variant)
      5


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The Téméraire class of 74 is well known as the most expansive ship of the line class ever built, with over 120 ships were ordered for the French navy and a further 4 ships built from the lines of Pompee and America being built by the Royal navy. The ships themselves served as parts of the French, Spanish, Dutch, British and Italian, with the smaller variant, and while the vast majority of these ships were constructed in France, the Pluton class would be launched all over Europe in Napoleon's client states.

I have for now left out the subgroups of the Téméraire from the voting as I can't see any real difference between them, perhaps someone would wish to offer a more extensive knowledge on the subject and correct me but for now at least I will start this with only the 4 main design sub classes.

large.jpg

Téméraire:
The original of the class designed by Jacques Noel Sane as part of a massive fleet expansion program between 1782 and 1813. Téméraire herself was launched in 1783 and properly completed in 1785, she was condemned in 1801 and broken up in 1803.

Dimensions:

  • Length: 55.87 metres (183.3 ft) (172 pied)
  • Beam: 14.90 metres (48 ft 11 in)
  • Draught: 7.26 metres (23.8 ft) (22 pied)
  • Propulsion: Up to 2,485 m2 (26,750 sq ft) of sails

Armament:

Lower gundeck: 28 × 36-pounder long guns
Upper gundeck: 30 × 18-pounder long guns
Forecastle and Quarter deck:
16 × 8-pounder long guns
4 × 36-pounder carronades

1920px-Achille_mp3h9307.jpg

Cassard:

Two ships were laid down in 1793-94 at Brest to a variant of Sané's design with the aim of carrying 24-pounder guns on the upper deck instead of the 18-pounders carried by the Téméraire. These ships were 2 feet longer than the standard 74s, and half a foot wider, however by 1816 their armament has been reduced down to 18 pounders.

Dimensions:

  • Length: 56.47 metres (185.3 ft) (174 pied)
  • Beam: 15.05 metres (49.4 ft)
  • Draught: 7.26 metres (23.8 ft) (22 pied)
  • Propulsion: Up to 2,485 m2 (26,750 sq ft) of sails

Armament:

Lower gundeck: 28 × 36-pounder long guns
Upper gundeck: 30 × 24-pounder long guns
Forecastle and Quarter deck:
16 × 8-pounder long guns
4 × 36-pounder carronades

1200px-Veteran_mg_8190c.jpeg

Suffren:

Two ships were begun in 1801 to a variation of the standard Téméraire design by Sané to meet the demands of Pierre-Alexandre Forfait. The length of these ships were reduced by 65 cm from the standard design. A third ship to this variant design begun at Brest was cancelled in 1804. After Forfait left the Ministry of the Marine in October 1801, no further vessels were ordered to this variant design.

Dimensions:

  • Length: 55.87 m (183.3 ft) (172 French feet)
  • Beam: 14.90 m (48.9 ft) (44' 6)
  • Draught: 7.26 m (23.8 ft) (22 French feet)
  • Propulsion: Up to 2 485 m² of sails

Armament:

Lower gundeck: 28 × 36-pounder long guns
Upper gundeck: 30 × 24-pounder long guns
Forecastle and Quarter deck:
16 × 8-pounder long guns
4 × 36-pounder carronades

large.jpg

Pluton:

Starting with the prototypes Pluton and Borée in 1803, a smaller version of the Téméraire class, officially named petit modèle, was designed by Jacques-Noël Sané to be produced in shipyards having a lesser depth of water than the principal French shipyards, primarily those in neighbouring states under French control and in foreign ports which had been absorbed into the French Empire such as Antwerp. The revised design measured 177 feet 7 inches on the waterline, 180 feet 1 inch on the deck, and 46 feet 11 inches moulded breadth. The depth of hull was 9 inches less than that in the "regular" Téméraire design.

Dimensions:

  • Length: 55.87 metres (183.3 ft) (172 pied)
  • Beam: 14.90 metres (48 ft 11 in) (44.5 pied)
  • Draught: 7.26 metres (23.8 ft) (22 pied)
  • Propulsion: Up to 2,485 m2 (26,750 sq ft) of sails

Armament:

28 × 36-pounder long guns
30 × 24-pounder long guns
16 × 8-pounder long guns
4 × 36-pounder carronades

1200px-Rivoli-IMG_6928-with_camels.jpg


Please do share and vote on which of the ships you would like to see added most of this group, I'd also like to hear if there are specific ships within any of the class you would like to see represented most out of all of them, my personal favourite has to be the Pluton variant and of those it would be Rivoli, however I'd love to hear your own opinions of what ship should make it but do keep in mind this is a totally unofficial poll, with no real authority of which to add ships to the game, as ever thank you for reading :)

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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6 hours ago, SteelSandwich said:

Im curious, which ships in the dutch navy were build along these lines?

A quick check showed 8 ships of the Pluton design built in the Netherlands and turned over or abandoned to the Dutch.

Edited by Haratik
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Here is a list of the ships built in the Netherlands although the ship completed as HMS Chatham was finished in Britain the others to my knowledge served in Dutch navy after the liberation from Napoleon. There are more that were built in Antwerp but I wasn't sure if you wanted those listing too, basically the vast majority of the class was built in Antwerp, Genoa, Venice and Amsterdam while only a few were constructed in France itself here's the list

  • Royal Holondais  (completed as HMS Chatham)
  • Audacieux
  • Polypheme
  • Couronne
  • Piet Hein.

Steel you could have easily done this yourself you lazy Dutchman ;)

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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51 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

Royal Holondais  (completed as HMS Chatham)

Correct spelling (nowadays) : 'Le Royal Hollandais' :)

Correct spelling (back then) : 'Le Royal Hollandais' or 'Le Royal Hollandois'.

 

btw threedecks only knows of a French/Dutch 'Royal Hollandais', that is a... Wreker-class ship : https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=24675

Edited by LeBoiteux
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Pluton-class are known as Borée-class, "Royal Hollandais" was build in Flessingue but finished by the british under the name HMS Chatam (1812), some others have been built in Anvers/Antwerp around 1807, don't think that make them dutch, yet one seems to have been given to the dutch navy under the name of Nassau (1814).

So yes Borée-subclass may have a "dutcher" touch, and Albanais an italian one.

In the end, the original class would make it for a "generic" type.

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A small historical complement on J.N. Sané's 74-gun ships.

Until 1777 several naval engineers made 74-gun ships. Then Sané draws a drawing in 1777, it is the original plan. 166'6 "x 44 'x 21'6".

And comes the drawing of 1778, it is l'Annibal. The drawing of 1777 is modified to follow the request of the Marine Council, which requests it to increase the length by 2'. The Annibal made 165'5 "x 44 'x 21'6".

In 1780 Sané makes a new drawing. It lengthens by 1'. The Northumberland made 166'5 "x 44 'x 21'6".

After the American War of Independence France made a contest for a typical ship design for several reasons. Sané wins the contest with a new evolution of his drawing thanks in part to the Baron Borda. The 74-gun vessel must be 172 '(170' to the float) x 44'6 "x 22 '.

In 1782 and 1798, 55 vessels were built with the drawing of Sané, the first si le Téméraire.

Then we speak of a 74-gun vessel "big model" and a new 74-gun smaller. on account 40 large models (172 'x 44'6 "x 22') and 22 small models (169 'x 44' x 21'3")' Le Pluton is the first "small model". Of the "class" according to a name, rather a "type" of a ship, so we speak of a type of Sané.

Ordonance: The French 74-gun have from 1733 to 1787: 28x 36-pdr - 30x18-pdr - 16x8-pdr .

To 1787-1806: 28x36-pdr - 30x18-pdr - 16x8 + 4 howitzers 36 pdr.

To 1806-1813: 28x36 pdr - 30x18 pdr - 14x8 + 10 pdr carronade 36 pdr.

The 74-gun small model 1803 to 1806: 28x36-pdr - 30x18-pdr - 16x8 + 4 Howitzers of 36-pdr.

To 1806-1812: 28x36-prd - 30x18 pdr - 14x8-pdr +10 carronade 36 pdr.

We are two special vessels that are not large impressions.

Le Lion 1793/1815 (Glorieux 1795 Cassard in 1798) and le Magnanimes 1794/1833 (Quatorze-Juillet 1798, Vétéran 1802) 173'10 "x 45" x 22'3"; 28x36 pdr - 30x24-pdr - 16x8 + 4-pdr howitzers 36'

Note that le Suffen and la Borée are just 74-gun type Sané classic. So between 1782 and 1813 (and even long after) 95 ships are the same, only the artillery changes. And only two ships with 24-pdr guns. And only 22 small ships.

(I apologize for the English ... Google translation)

Edited by Surcouf
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Voted for the main Téméraire class for several reasons: 

1) It is the most representative by far.

2) There are already more 80 gun options than 74s, and especially given that the bucentaure is ingame, I see the 24pdr upper deck option as providing less variety rather than more. Also only 2 ships were built to this variant

3) Similarly, I think the  shallow variant is less representative, provides only a marginal advantage in draft (9 inches), and the Wasa can perform that role much more aggressively. 

My thoughts on specific design:

If elements of different sister ships  can be mixed, I'd go with the pompée for the hull and stern. She has probably the most elegant example of the classic french horshoe stern I've seen on a two-decker, and her quarter galleries are equally well executed to my eye. Her plan also shows the gingerbread in more detail than most: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80952.html

while her headrails are ok, I think those of the aigle are much better: 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Aigle_img_3173.jpg/600px-Aigle_img_3173.jpg

Honorable mention goes to the spartiate, though her transom arch doesn't follow her tumblehome (meaning the quarter galleries would bulge at the top) so I'd likely replace her transom/galleries with that of the pompée anyway. 

 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80515.html

Edited by Captain Armstrong
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  • 5 years later...

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