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Skully

Why do we have invisibility after battle?

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It has been warped with a shorter timer. Still need to figure out why.

Either way, invisibility is a boon for the ganker.

With the shorter timer all original purposes of the invisibility suggestion have been lost.

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1 minute ago, Skully said:

It has been warped with a shorter timer. Still need to figure out why.

Either way, invisibility is a boon for the ganker.

With the shorter timer all original purposes of the invisibility suggestion have been lost.

Why it was added?

Because we got two dimensions. 1) Battle instances and 2) 75x compressed (ow sail speed and downscaled map) open world. Now, if you attack someone (most likely in enemy waters, as tehre is no reason for anyone to be in the middle of nowhere in no nations waters), the probability of him calling out the engagement in nation chat / discord / teamspeak is pretty high.
The 3 minute join timer is meant to simulate the fact that only ships in RANGE should be even able to join the engagement. But before the invis. timer, this wasn't the case, as the parties in battle HAD to leave the battle instance max 15 minutes after the battle was over. And guess what, due to the 75x compressed open world, you would veeery often meet a welcome fleet, aka revenge fleet, outside, which was NOT in range (3 minutes ish, which is a LOT for open world aswell) of the initial battle.
All in all, the revenge fleet were profiting from a speed boost aka 75x compressed OW to get to the battle instance and just wait for the players to get kicked out to open world. Why give one side such a bonus, but not to the guys in battle? I think I know your answer. Because they were in hostile waters right? Well thenmight aswell prohibit any PvP. Ganking (though some revenge fleets often didn't form to ganks but also fair ish engagements) is PART of an OW MMO.

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18 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

I think I know your answer.

I may.

I found the original discussion that made invisibility reach into the http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/15575-the-definitive-battle-screen-ganking-guide/

 

On 8/2/2016 at 11:17 AM, Skully said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_strategy#Introduction_of_the_guerre_de_course

 

Quote

The disadvantage of the guerre de course when pursued as a battlefleet strategy, rather than just by smaller vessels, is that it leaves a country’s own trade defenceless. Individual raiding squadrons are also vulnerable to defeat in detail if the enemy sends larger squadrons in pursuit, as happened to Leissegues at the Battle of San Domingo in 1806 and Von Spee at the Battle of the Falkland Islands in 1914.

There is no ganking in Naval Warfare, there is only Defeat in Detail. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_in_detail

On 8/2/2016 at 6:17 PM, Skully said:
On 8/2/2016 at 4:27 PM, Enraged Ewok said:

To repeat my suggestion from earlier which would allow escape for players in battle even if the battle marker stayed visible until all players left battle/logged off: Players should be dropped back into OW after the battle at the position they were in when the battle ended. For example, if I tag a Trincomalee south of Carlisle and our battle ends south of Savannah la Mar, I would drop in OW south of Savannah la Mar instead of Carlisle. The revenge fleet has the start location but  cannot know exactly where it ended  just by communicating with the friendly in chat (unless it was right on the dock of a port), giving the aggressor a chance to outsail the pursuers waiting for him.

Added this one to the ganking guide.

Setup battle instance just at visibility of the enemy coast. The scout will remain outside. The ganking fleet sails to the coast and waits until the scout gives the word to gank the trader coming past.

 

On 8/2/2016 at 4:27 PM, Enraged Ewok said:

Another option, though I like it less since all it does is solve the invisibility problem but not the counterplay/escape problem: When you leave a battle and go into battle results, you are rendered on the open world. Everyone in the area on the OW can see you, and you can see them. You handle your loot in a minimizable battle result window in OW, but cannot raise sails or turn into you close it. You can log off instantly while the window is open. Once the window is closed, the invulnerability timer and battle entry timers begin like normal.

Seeing one-another ensures you can make a perfectly informed and risk-free decision to log-off. It would render revenge fleets obsolete though, so this one counts as a solution to this topic. :P

On 8/4/2016 at 6:16 PM, Skully said:

So we have identified two potential solutions that actually benefit the gankers more than the gankees:

 

  • Risk free log-off
  • Invisibility on OW

I think we can safely say, we are done on this topic.

 

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Personally I don't like invisibility.  If we have invisibility, it should be both ways.  Now that could simulate fog of war and make it harder for gankers.  Technically I think we could have what we do without invisibility.  Have invisibility for 10 seconds (for connection reasons) and just have a speed buff for 45 seconds (so 10 seconds invisible and 35 seconds visible).

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Maybe invisible ships should still show up, but it doesn't give name or nationality, or even which ship.  They show up as an unmarked ship class.  6-7 rates show up as a plan vessel that says unknown 6-7th rate.  Same for 4-5th rates and 1-3rd rates.  When you are invisible everyone else is that way to you.

Edited by Prater

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You are still thinking of one ship or one player one fleet, one entity.

That's not how a ganking fleet operates. It consists of 1 scout / bait, 1 tagger, a couple of fast frigs and potentially something heavy (like a fast Buc). Preferably with an alt (/enemy) ship attached as well.

The gank is always preplanned on a shipping lane and a reference point. For example the south-west of Jamaica.

Scout / bait sits at the ready and always has full visibility. Once a target comes in view he simply reports back the targets movements in relation to the reference point. Then the ganking fleet pounces. They do not need visibility, they only need to ensure the tagger or fast frigs get a good uncloaking position. Speed buff works for the ganking fleet, not the target.

The target has an OODA loop of roughly 30 seconds, somethings 10-15 for a well-organized clan. But essentially the tag is a given.

I'm actually thinking whether it makes more sense to have an exit timer on the battle instance (/ screen). Then the scout can call out target movements, but the ganking fleet needs 2 minutes to react. (So reversing the in battle tag timer, instead of you can leave after 2 minutes, you will leave after 2 minutes unless tagged.)

Edited by Skully
ganking fleet is not one entity

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