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Player selected ship 2017 - Suggestions

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I suggest the Portuguese Galleon Padre Eterno, Launched in 1663. 2000 tons displacement, she was built as a cargo vessel but later sold to the Portugeuse Navy. At 53 meters on the gun deck, the ship is only slightly longer than Bucentaure.

The Padre Eterno is listed as having an armament of 144 cannon, but I believe that no more than half of these would have been heavy cannon. If you compare the Padre Eterno, to contemporary ships such as the Dutch Gouden Leeuw (1666) 80-guns 50 meters on deck. The French Lys (1669) 70-guns, 46 meters on deck. The French Thérèse (1665) 58-guns, 51 meters on deck and the HMS Monmouth (1667) 66-guns, 45 meters on deck. And take into consideration that Padre Eterno was built as a merchant ship, it seems a reasonable assumption that she would have carried an armament of between 70-80 heavy guns and the rest would have been smaller swivels and falconets. 

There is no more famous Portuguese ship in this time frame. No plans or drawing exist for Padre Eterno, but since most galleons of this period were built to similar lines, it would not be difficult to create a very close approximation of the actual ship.

padre-terno-galleon.jpg

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10 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Aurora
Dutch
32-gun frigate, 145 X 40 ft, 1804

Later renamed Vriesland
 

   On 21/09/2015 at 3:49 AM, Zeekoning said: 

 

   On 12/01/2015 at 1:50 PM, Wicked Mouse said: 

 

Plans of a ship built on the same design :

See http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7327-discussion-player-ship-selection-1st-half-2016/?p=140545

None of those ships have any historical interest. As far as the lack of plans, Portuguese galleons during this period we're generally built to the same lines. As for being out of the time period of Naval Action, the ship was built only a couple of years before Wappen Von Hamburg. Galleons as a ship type we're actually built into the early 18th century.

Edited by The Old Pretender
Info, and grammer
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23 minutes ago, The Old Pretender said:

None of those ships have any historical interest. As far as the lack of plans, Portuguese galleons during this period we're generally built to the same lines. As for being out of the time period of Naval Action, the ship was built only a couple of years before Wappen Von Hamburg. Galleons as a ship type we're actually built into the early 18th century.

1) You're welcome.

2) NA Time Frame : 1690-1820 +/_ 5 years.

"Couple of years ?"

  • Padre Eterno :1663
  • Wappen Von Hamburg : 1722

3) Provide plans of early 18th-C Portuguese galleons to NA Shipyard section. It'd be much appreciated !

4) Remember :

On 30/08/2017 at 0:45 PM, admin said:

Requirements in broadside guns

  • Light frigates 32-36 guns (we have no ships in this range)
  • Heavy frigates 50-60 guns (we only have trincomalee and constitution in this range)
  • 3rd rates 70-80 guns (we only have 1.5 ships in this range)

All other gun counts will not be considered

Edited by LeBoiteux

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17 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

1) You're welcome.

2) NA Time Frame : 1690-1820 +/_ 5 years.

"Couple of years ?"

  • Padre Eterno :1663
  • Wappen Von Hamburg : 1722

3) Provide plans of early 18th-C Portuguese galleons to NA Shipyard section. It'd be much appreciated !

4) Remember :

I already explained the reasoning behind why I believe Padre Eterno would be a good choice. If it did not sink at sea, the ship would have probably lasted well into the eighteenth century. 

There are no plans because there were no plans. Ships during that period we're built to a set of builders rules not plans. The ships design could be reasonably reproduced based on it's dimensions and tonnage. 

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6 hours ago, VCNT de Velasco said:

is true that we have the Santísima Trinidad, which was the largest and most powerful ship of the line that has ever existed, but this is the only purely Spanish ship in the game and yet it is indisputable that the presence of Spanish ships in those times were, at that time, much more relevant than those of any other nation, in America as in any other part of the known world.

The most powerful i can't tell, but the largest wasn't the Santisima, it was the Mahmudiye. A first rate from the ottoman navy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_ship_Mahmudiye

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1 hour ago, Sella22 said:

Le Monarque, 74 guns, 1747 

The bibles about 1780's French 74-gun ships : 

https://ancre.fr/en/ouvrages-de-base-en/9-vaisseau-de-74-canons-1780-traite-pratique-d-art-naval-1780-en-quatre-volumes-base-de-la-collection.html

https://ancre.fr/en/ouvrages-de-base-en/73-plans-de-la-charpente-du-v74-canons.html

Inside the latter, the decoration of :

- Le Centaure, 1782 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Centaure_(1782)

- Le Superbe, 1784 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Superbe_(1784)

Edited by LeBoiteux

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48 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:
 
Original name: le Monarque
Laid down in 1745
Launched in ?
Struck of lists in 1747 (taken)
Built by B. Ollivier
Place of building: Brest
Other names : none
 
Data:
Length x breadth x  depht in hold
166' x  43' x 20'6" (Pied du roi)
53,92m x 13,96m x 6,66m
Displacement ~ 2 600 tx
 
Artillery of origin:
1st Deck / 2nd / F'c'sl/Q'deck
28-gun of 36-pdr / 30-gun of 18-pdr / 16-gun of 8-pdr
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1 hour ago, no one said:

The most powerful i can't tell, but the largest wasn't the Santisima, it was the Mahmudiye. A first rate from the ottoman navy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_ship_Mahmudiye

Mahmudiye wasn't the most powerful but she certainly was something to be reckoned with. Launched in 1829 her armament was a staggering 128 guns, her size even more so impressive. Comparing her to Santissima shows just how much monster she really was.

According to Threedecks Mahmudiye's stats are;
Length of Gundeck: 67.9704m
Breadth: 18.796m
Depth in Hold: 9.144m
Draught Forward: 7.929m
Draught Aft: 8.2623m

Santissima was;
Length of Gundeck: 61.299m
Length of Keel: 52.3768m
Breadth: 16.1588m
Depth in Hold: 8.0794m

6.jpg

While the measurements don't quite give the same stats or readings its clear how much larger the Mahmudiye was over the Santissima. where its a little less easy to distinguish is the broadside weight, mainly because it looks like threedecks is unfamiliar with turkish gun weightings, the Okka system seems to escape them a little, the broadside value they have given taken from an source talking about her armament in 1832 gives her a broadside of 934.21kg, however the Okka weighting doesn't compare so easily to the weightings given to her so her broadside would be much closer to 1000kg, possibly a little over. Comparing her at even the conservative 934.21 to the Santissima gives a fairly dramatic difference, Santissima and her heaviest armament in 1805 was given at a total broadside weight of 675.648 kg, giving Mahmudiye a staggering advantage of around 300kg. This being said she is certainly not the most heavily weighted broadside going, as from around about 1815 onwards navies started to experiment with arming their first rates with 32lbs on all decks, for example the Caledonia class was given 120 x 32lb guns meaning a broadside of a staggering 1741.8kg, over 10 years before Mahmudiye was launched.

Threedecks also misses out some of the important aspects of the Turkish fleet, which is their attraction to huge calibre stone guns similar to those I mentioned in my recent post about the tirar bombe, allegedly the Mahmudiye was armed with a few of these over her career, whether they are modernised versions the 44 okka from my previous post or different calibres I'm not quite sure but its obvious she did carry some staggeringly huge guns.

The other thing that is worth mentioning about Mahmudiye is that she would have been incredibly sluggish in the water, the Ottoman navy had a poor history of naval design despite heavy investment in their navy. She would have sailed like a bathtub even compared to much older super heavy first rate ships of the line, a mix of conservative naval design mixed with a completely filled in waist leaving her rather vulnerable in combat despite her heavy armament. The other thing to consider is that she was fairly poorly constructed and maintained, its quite the miracle she survived as long as she did, her service was littered with frequent dry and wet rot, she was notorious for hogging and being a bit leaky, despite this she still maintained a huge level of prestige, mainly due to her dramatic size.

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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La Bretagne is a mixed ship, the biggest French sail ship build is le Valmy with the length to 64,20 m. Out of time of the game. Launch in 1847.

5 231,17 tons.

Edited by Surcouf

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On 8/30/2017 at 8:45 PM, admin said:

Captains. We need to fill 3 gaps in the ship line up.

Please propose ships for the consideration. 

Requirements in broadside guns

  • Light frigates 32-36 guns (we have no ships in this range)
  • Heavy frigates 50-60 guns (we only have trincomalee and constitution in this range)
  • 3rd rates 70-80 guns (we only have 1.5 ships in this range)

All other gun counts will not be considered

Nation preference

  • Dutch
  • Portuguese
  • Venetian

Other great models will also be allowed but we would prefer underrepresented nations. 

There are so many 5th rates, why is this class even mentioned ? 1st rates, 2nd rates, 3rd rates is what we should have an increase in variety.

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9 minutes ago, Jean Pual Vilvenue said:

There are so many 5th rates, why is this class even mentioned ? 1st rates, 2nd rates, 3rd rates is what we should have an increase in variety.

Ships carrying 32-36 guns are needed to fill in the gap between La Renommée et La Belle Poule.

Moreover, 6th Rates and 5th Rates are principal ships for newcomers, casual gamers and, I guess, most of the potential NA players. Shouldn't Sols remain rare ?

Besides, I'd say that in game there aren't enough three-masted "small" ships carrying between 20 and 36 guns (3 right now : USS Rattlesnake, HMS Cerberus and La Renommée, right ?).

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28 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Ships carrying 32-36 guns are needed to fill in the gap between La Renommée et La Belle Poule.

Moreover, 6th Rates and 5th Rates are principal ships for newcomers, casual gamers and, I guess, most of the potential NA players. Shouldn't Sols remain rare ?

Besides, I'd say that in game there aren't enough three-masted "small" ships carrying between 20 and 36 guns (3 right now : USS Rattlesnake, HMS Cerberus and La Renommée, right ?).

Im all for it. But honestly, we need mroe ships in general.

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1 hour ago, Jean Pual Vilvenue said:

There are so many 5th rates, why is this class even mentioned ? 1st rates, 2nd rates, 3rd rates is what we should have an increase in variety.

2nd 3rd and 4th are by far the most lacking categories right now. We could really do with a couple of larger 2nd rates and if it was me deciding I would go for the famous large 2nds from Britain as they played such an important part of the British battle fleet, the two I would personally go for most would be the 98 gun Neptune class and the 90 gun Barfleur class ships, the dutch De Ruyter class would also sit nicely here. When we talking about 3rd rates we really should see an offering from the Téméraire class, and probably a Montañés too, This is also a good place to throw in an offering from Portugal, perhaps as Bungee suggested on the first post of this page the Rainho de portugal. Moving onto 4th rates, this is potentially the most versatile class, while 3rds are generally the backbone of fleets the 2nd rate Naval powers offered some fantastic 4th rates, this would be a lovely place to put in some love for the 2nd rate naval powers, The Dutch, Venetians, Portuguese, Danes Swedes and perhaps even the Ottomans. Although saying this the recent addition of Wasa for the Swedes, and the supposedly under development Christian VII for the Danes somewhat sorts them out a little. This leaves Venice, The Dutch and the Portuguese, again I'm unsure on what the best possible option is for the Portuguese, however I would most love to see Delft (1783) for the Dutch and Fama (1784) for the Venetians added here.

What I really don't want to see for now is more smaller frigates, which is comparatively well stocked and balanced, 6th and 5th being the currently best offering the game has in a lot of ways considering the balance and options in those rosters, the other thing I really don't want to see is the addition of more US ships, because this game is slowly becoming too much of a homage to the US Navy, especially with the Prince de Neufchatel just in its final stages of development.

neptune.JPG

Barfleur
large.jpg

De ruyter

t6sEsv1.png

2jffHC5.png

Téméraire

1920px-Achille_mp3h9307.jpg

FIg7vW9.jpg

Delft

I80KmBO.jpg

Fama
yGX45L2.jpg
hTXDb2G.jpg

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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For the Dutch they used merely 2nd, 3rd and 4th rate as there main SoL since the nature of the coastline. And I need to mention that the Dutch also have beside the normal warships also some merchantman had as many guns as a normal 3rd rate, these ships were mainly used for the WIC and VOC since they had different kind of intrest, but not uncommon that they would have seen battle. (apart from the pirate-refits). I know that the Wreker-class (80 guns later 90) and the Prins Maurits-class? (74 guns) of ships had a 36, 30 and 12 after refit 36, 30 ,12/36 and 36, 24, 12 Dutch pdr had were to the Admiraal de Ruyter (Wreker-class), De Vrijheid and 7 Provinciën (Prins Maurits-Class?). In British pound it mean that they would have a 39,5, 33, 13/39,5 and 39,5, 26,5 and 13 Pdr had respectively.

For the 74 gunners  they would have 28*36pdr , 28*24 pdr , 18*12 pdr, it means they would have a broadside weight with Dutch pound in 948 pdr whilst the current bellona has 865 and the St Pavel 1038 if we calculate that to Brit pdr she has a pdr of 1041. There for I would say the Dutch ships would be a nice filler to bridge the gap between certain rates as a heavy ship rate.

And for the Wreker-class ships I will do in two stages since the refit, for the pre-refit the ships have 30*36 pdr, 30*30 pdr, 20*12 pdr, that would mean they would have a broadside weight of 1110 Dutch pdr whilst the current St Pavel and Bucentaure have 1038 and 1200 british pdr broadside weight, but if we take the conversion into account that would mean they would a heavier broadside weigth of 30*39,5, 30*33 and 20*13 pdr taking that into account, she would then have a broadside weigth of 1218 british pdr. 

And now that is done let's go to the refitted Wreker-class of ships with 90 guns, those had a 30*36, 30*30, 20*12 pdr and 10*36 carronades, so in Dutch pound we would have a broadside weight of 1290, for comparison the Victory and the L'Ocean have 1295 and 1365 british pdr broadside weight, but now let's convert we have suddenly 1415 british pdr broadside weight. 

So as a summary the Dutch might not have had there primetime during this period nor we have really famous ships for that matter, but that does not take away that the ships we used were under gunned or had bad performance, by not owning a 1st rate. They were more than capable to match up any other major sea power at the time ship wise if not they had a heavier broadside weight than same class or higher ships. 

For the conversion rate I use the Amsterdam pound with 494,04, for conversion sake I used 1.098 for simplicity. The British broadside weight might be a bit off by a margin of 20/30 pdr but that is more to do with what source u use on Dutch pound, for this most commonly is used the Amsterdam pound

And a question for @admin when do we know when a ship/selection of ships have been chosen?

@Fluffy Fishy the Tirare guns were a nice read, I got 2 questions, 1 were these guns breach or muzzel loaded and 2 would u dare to say thes guns are the first truely rifled and precise (for the time) guns to be ever used, by any significant power. 

 

Edited by pietjenoob
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No more british or us ships please. We have enough.

While I think the temerarie class from the french could be a really good addition, the gap should be filled with ships from underepresented nations. France have lots of ships in the game and 2 new ones are coming soon (Hermione and xebec).

In my view, Venice has little to do in NA. No colonies and I doubt any warship from them sailed so far away from the mediterranean. 

 

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On 02/09/2017 at 1:31 PM, Intrepido said:

No more british or us ships please. We have enough.

While I think the temerarie class from the french could be a really good addition, the gap should be filled with ships from underepresented nations. France have lots of ships in the game and 2 new ones are coming soon (Hermione and xebec).

In my view, Venice has little to do in NA. No colonies and I doubt any warship from them sailed so far away from the mediterranean. 

 

I guess now ships are made for OW NA and NA Legends, so the argument about the colonies in the Caribbean Sea doesn't stand anymore (if it ever...).

IMHO ship selection is not a matter of nationality but of... ships. I'm sure there are always some nice US and British ships out there we need. All nationalities with nice ships and, in particular, available plans deserve to be in game. Plan availability is the key point. 

Still waiting for a greek frigate btw. And a 20/24-gun French (3-masted) corvette. And more light frigates (one of the purposes of this thread). And... ;)

Edited by LeBoiteux
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