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Player selected ship 2017 - Suggestions


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1 hour ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

Variety and fun.  I expect we're going to eventually have at least a couple ships for each (currently) playable nation in the game, and a couple more "exotic" ships will make things a bit more interesting. 

I think the reason is to do with the naval action legends. In this new game the naval warfare is not only about the caribbean so it is their interest to bring other major important naval powers of that time period. That is the reason the devs are researching ships from portugal and venezia imo. And i also think the ottoman navy should be researched, but because there is so much to do and probaly there are few designers in the team, some priorities will have to be taken into account.

Imo the devs should focus on getting 2 dutch ships and 1 more spanish ship to the game. This would please the community and should be top priority. After the release of the naval action legends , then the devs could consider in briging 2 ships from portugal  , 2 ships from venezia and 2 ships from the ottoman navy. The ottoman navy in fact will have a great appeal to future muslim players and should not be ignore from a marketing point of view, and should be one priority the moment naval action legends goes live.

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Captains. We need to fill 3 gaps in the ship line up. Please propose ships for the consideration.  Requirements in broadside guns Light frigates 32-36 guns (we have no ships in this rang

For Dutch, The Vrijheid 74 gun   The 7 Provinciën 74 gun Prins Friso 50 gun The Leeuwenhorst/Edam 56 gun   slighty lower gun count but unkown 30 gun  

Le Redoutable, the ship that fought the HMS Victory at Trafalgar and almost boarded it, also the ship that "killed" Nelson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Redoutable_(1791) More than 100

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56 minutes ago, pietjenoob said:

And there he goes with the Venetians :P, but they too had a very interesting thought about ships I have to say. Not really mentioned in the history books that the Venetian Navy had a big part of stopping the Ottoman influence via Italy 

Well this is a thread that is supposed to be thinking about potential offers from Portugal The Netherlands and Venice and I think on balance I have the largest bank of information on Venice around here :P

There aren't many ships in the Age of Sail that are particularly key to having had stopped the Ottomans, Venetian artillery was probably on balance more responsible for stopping Ottomans than Venetian ships were, although both played complementary roles, especially in the Cretan war. The main issue is that the Venetians (nor the Ottomans) didn't really start to centre their fleets around SoLs or Frigates until the closing years of the 1600s holding onto galleys much longer than the Atlantic nations. The later adaptation of this style of ship meant that in Venice at least, the technology evolved slightly differently, meaning Venice gained some advantages and disadvantages to developing galleys further than most European nations.

The key warship class in the fight against the Ottomans remained the galley, with the galley and the galleass being the main contributor to the Cretan war, It wasnt until near the very end where Venice developed their first SoL, the Giove Fulminante Class (1667), more significantly only 4 of these ships were ever built. It was followed on by the San Lorenzo Zustinian class which emerged near the middle of the 1st Morean war in 1691 which they built a lot more standing at 29 ships, this class played a much more prominant role in the two Morean wars although arguably it wasn't the ship that made the difference, it was their armament, the vastly superior Venetian cannons and each being given 2 large and 6 small tirar bombes. Venice's lonely 74 Corona (1714) played a strong role in the 2nd Morean war, where it was important in the siege of Corfu as the main capital ship, it was here where the Leon Trionfante first saw action too, itself armed with the same number of tirar bombes as its predecessors.

The main action of The Venetian line ships was at the 2nd battle of Cape Matapan, a surprisingly under represented battle in history, especially as it was larger than Trafalgar and just as decisive (The Wiki doesn't show the full listing of warships there), while the Allied navy fought bravely and the Leon Trionfante distinguishing itself well the real game changer wasnt the ships it was the armament, the standard Venetian guns were so ahead of their time by this point, with the incredible tirar bombes ripping huge holes through the Turkish ships and causing great damage, despite not being used as intended.

Apart from the early examples the only real conflict that Venetian ships played a part in was the Venetian Barbary/Tunisian war where the Leon Trionfante class played the most significant role mainly due to their higher numbers and pure firepower, while Fama earned the highest prestige due to her unmatched speed and sailing qualities combined with the fact her firepower wasn't significantly less than the 70 gun Leon Trionfante class ships, she was also praised for her ability to run down the smaller speed built pirate ships along side the lighter fregata leggara ships such as Palma. Beyond this the Venetian ships are only found in fights between France Austria and Britain, like as De Ruyter said, Bellona at Lissa.

If you want to read more about the history of each of the ships, I have done some considerable writing up for the ships I have posted for individually, most notably I have done a brief history of each and every one of the Fama Class which goes into Venetian, French and Austrian service, you can find them on their dedicated ship threads :).

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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15 hours ago, admin said:


Requirements in broadside guns

  • Light frigates 32-36 guns (we have no ships in this range)
  • Heavy frigates 50-60 guns (we only have trincomalee and constitution in this range)
  • 3rd rates 70-80 guns (we only have 1.5 ships in this range)

All other gun counts will not be considered

 

This is a really good range I have always felt was lacking on ships.  The majority of the ships in game used should be in this range.  Thanks for looking into filling this gap.   Though I do agree with some one else that Spanish kinda lacks on the mid tier range of ships and should be added to the three nations you have listed as pref.  Since you listed three of the biggest trade vessels of that time would be nice to maybe see some more merchant ships in game too.  Maybe some that fill a little better role or explorer/merchant ships than we have in game now.

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1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

I would choose to develop 2 new third rates.

Right now we only have a proper one, the Bellona. The 3rd is just an unfinnished model of the Bellona, which should have no place in a game with NA quality standars.

This way you will be able to choose 3 ships, the same amount you have at 2nd rate and 1st rate.

 

I have always saw the 3rd rate as the poor mans starter ships for SOL's.  I hope they don't nerf the Wasa as it should stay with firepower but BR be up there with the Thirds (not allowed in 4th rate port battles, but king of OW hunting).  I think more light frigates and 3rds is very much needed and of course the middle of the Heavy Frigates.

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My heavy Frigate!

 

D. Fernando II e Glória

Guns - 50

Nationality - Portuguese

Category - 4rd Rate

The frigate "D. Fernando II and Glória - named as a tribute to the king consort of Portugal Ferdinand II, husband of the Portuguese Queen Maria II. Hull built at the shipyard of Daman in 1843, this magnificent ship of 1,850 tons was Portugal's last sailing warship. With 86.75 m long by 12.80 m width, it was built with teak wood from the Nagar-Aveli enclave. It was built in the Shipyards of the Royal Navy Arsenal under the supervision of the naval builder engineer Gil José da Conceição, being involved in its construction both Portuguese and Indian workers. After getting done, the hull was towed to the port of Goa, where it was fitted. Its propulsion was assured by a sail system with an area of 2,052 m2. The maiden voyage took place between 2 February and 4 July 1845 under the command of Captain Torcato José Marques, with a crew of 145 men, connecting Goa to Lisbon. It was used to support the wars of the nineteenth-century Africa, it carried soldiers, members of scientific expeditions, settlers and exiles. It saved shipwrecked people, made naval instruction trips, was a practice school of artillery and was also the flagship of the naval forces stationed in the Tagus. The ship remained in active service until 1878, when she made her last sea voyage, having travelled more than one hundred thousand miles, the equivalent of five circumnavigations of the world.

 

59a85273a6bff_D.FERNANDOIIEGLRIA-6.jpg.ab95b752c3263abb62b11744b1ad4dbd.jpg

59a85274dd695_D.FERNANDOIIEGLRIA-7.thumb.jpg.ccd2a6b699b29e838a8aaf971b3b9b45.jpg59a85368ec53b_D.FERNANDOIIEGLRIA-3.thumb.JPG.f196fcc3beb3268a195b157c32b9f2ab.JPG59a85365d3a24_D.FERNANDOIIEGLRIA-2.thumb.jpg.6aa0c862f215365d4a77d35cecec2865.jpg

 

Edited by DonnellDR
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This is a ship I'd like to see in game:

San Juan Nepomuceno, 74 gun Spanish 3rd rate.  

f3wcns.jpg

2namaog.jpg

Read about it here:

book page 274, google page 300 if you are reading from google play.

https://books.google.com/books?id=-sTFAAAAMAAJ

 

Edited:

Churruca (captain of the San Juan Nepomuceno) is the Spanish Cochrane or Nelson, and is extremely famous.  If he had been in control of the combined fleet at Trafalgar, it might have had a different result.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosme_Damián_de_Churruca_y_Elorza

800px-Churruca_death.jpg

Edited by Prater
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3 hours ago, Knobby said:

What are tirar bombes?

I feel like a bit of a dirty tease now. In short they are a little bit like the Paixhan gun but better in every way.

The Tirar Bombe was came about as part of the bitter arms race between Venice and the Ottomans during the First Morean war (1784-99). The war is the first time both the Venetians and Ottomans are fighting line battles, with both sides pushing for dominance at sea, as a result both sides pushed themselves as hard as they could, seeing the Ottomans launch some particularly large and heavily armed ships while Venice was fielding slightly smaller more manoeuvrable offerings. Part of this arms race also involved a dramatic scramble for large calibre artillery, with the Ottomans pushing for more use of their largest naval guns, the 16 and 12 okka, which compared to being slightly larger than the British 40 and 32 pounders. The Ottomans also started to equip their ships with a number of 44 okka guns which fired stone projectiles, equivalent to 124 British pounds. The war also saw the Ottomans bringing some of their now ancient bombards back into action, although these old monsters were potentially capable of huge damage although their outdated technology didn't add any real tactical value as they were unhandy and inaccurate.

These large calibre weapons needed a response from the Venetian government or otherwise risked turning what was on the whole a successful conflict for Venice back in Ottoman favour. The response was assigned to the public gun founder (Fonditore Pubblico) at the time Sigismondo Alberghetti III. The Alberghetti family were a hugely prestigious family in the world of artillery and arguably the most important family in the history of the cannon, they had held the title of public gun founder more than any other bloodline in Venice thanks to their incredible talents for founding large ordinance. Sigismondo III was a genius even by Alberghetti standards, he mainly studied in Venice and England and was unparalleled during his time.

The gun itself was developed out of Venetian technology mainly centred on their mortars and obusiero (similar to howizers) with large parts of the inspiration coming from various experiments conducted by the English in the 1680s, his thoughts were also influenced by accounts of the French bombardment of Genoa during 1684, the experimental shells doing a terrifying amount of damage to the city. Sigismondo set about applying these new technologies for naval combat, something the English and French avoided due to safety concerns.

The initial design for the gun was a calibre of 120 libbre (equivalent to 212mm), it was to employ a spherical powder chamber similar to mortar technology of the time allowing for larger charges without increasing the thickness and weight of the gun. It was to fire a ball roughly the same weight as the Venetian 20 libbre, similar to an english 15lb. The style of the gun meant that it could be very lightly constructed and framed while still packing a huge punch. The projectiles themselves are somewhat distinctive too, the projectiles unlike standard round shot were to be made cylindrical, and would either be hollow iron shot filled with explosives, or solid stone shot, the cylindrical design was a hugely important part of the gun giving it more stability and accuracy in flight but also meant that there was no risk of the shot turning and causing itself to instantly detonate on firing.

Interestingly the first two guns were built in England, both at 120 libbre and 6 calibres long, weighing 3500 libbre grosse (1670kg). They were cast under Sigismondo's supervision in Ashburnham in Sussex at the Thomas Western foundry. However once they arrived in Venice they were put aside and half forgotten, mainly thanks to the Venetian fleet having a string of success and enjoying naval superiority. However the Ottoman fleet started to recover after 1693, leading to a narrow defeat of the Venetian navy at the battle of Chios in 1695 thanks to the effective use of their 44 okka stone cannons.

To respond to Turkish success the Venetian Senate reinvested in the Tirar Bombe project once more in 1696, leading Sigismondo to develop a second model of the gun, the 200 libbre, weighing 5000 libbre grosse (2385kg) and further adapting them for naval use on their ships of the line, mainly the San Lorenzo Zustinian class ships. Now however the guns were to be cast in the Venetian Arsenal itself out of Bronze, allowing to make use of the huge technological advantage Venice had in bronze casting, combined with the superior properties that bronze has as a material for casting guns. Testing then confirmed the incredible qualities of the gun to the point that it created a feud between the Sergente Generalre dell' Artiglieria Jacob Richards who endlessly doubted its capabilities. This feud would continue to strain on between Sigismondo and Richards resulting in a bitter rivalry between the two, even despite numerous tests and competitions confirming Sigismondo to be in the right Jacobs continued to claim the gun was dangerous, the ammunition was too expensive to produce and its construction too light. Despite these arguments the Venetian state immediately sent 33 guns to the Levant, however the continued objections from Richards meant that their ammunition was in short supply.

The guns now got their first real taste of combat under Sigismondo's Brother Carlo Alberghetti, a prominent Venetian naval commander. Despite the limited ammunition the new guns proved incredibly successful in some light skirmishes, they even proved to exceed their high expectations given by their testing on Lido. The first true test however was at the battle of Mitilenos, where the heavier Ottoman fleet outnumbered the Venetians significantly, the battle resulted in a decisive victory for Venice. The Tirar bombe received significant praise from the three Venetian admirals present, Daniele Dolfin, Pietro Duado and Fabio Bonvincini. Daniele Dolfin even presented Sigismondo with a certification of merit thanks to the crucial part the new guns played, praising the high rate of fire and great accuracy, however they all downplayed the innovative nature of the new weapons, partly as they had been unable to fire many explosive rounds, but also partially due to using them misunderstanding how the cannons were designed to be used. The tirar bombe was intended as a long range weapon, however the lack of range tables and explosive ordinance meant that at Mitilenos they were used much more like a carronade, fighting in a much more traditional close quarters combat, despite their incorrect usage eyewitnesses to the battle tell of a great many Turkish ships having to withdraw having suffered enormous holes in their hulls, thanks to these new weapons.

Peace resumed in 1699 and it was decided that these powerful weapons were of little use as part of the fleet, they were redeployed in the home batteries around the lagoon, providing security during the early parts of the war of Spanish succession. When it was clear Venice wouldn't be dragged into the Spanish conflict the guns were warehoused and then forgotten about, they were rediscovered on during the 2nd Morean war (1714-18), where the Venetian navy attempted to quickly redeploy them amongst the fleet. Ammunition was updated slightly and new trials were conducted, reconfirming the incredible properties the weapon had, these new trials were this time watched by multiple members of the Venetian Senate, these observers were highly impressed and attention was given to ensuring the guns were properly supplied with ammunition and range tables. Now properly supplied the gun played a crucial role in relieving the siege of Corfu, not only fending off the much larger Ottoman navy, but also creating mass casualties and panic amongst the encamped Turkish troops. The guns were even given dedicated thought in the design of the 60 gun second rate San Spiridion with the hope that the smaller cheaper ships could outmatch larger foes thanks to the incredible effectiveness of the tirar bombe, they again played a crucial role in the huge battle 3 day battle of Matapan helping the Allied fleet secure another decisive victory.

Following the end of the 2nd Morean war the guns continued to be mounted on Venetian ships into the 1740s, when it was eventually retired. Following their retirement a number of the guns were then kept in the Arsenal alongside other examples of exemplary Venetian ordinance, documenting the best made guns over the centuries, they were documented as part of Domenico Gasperoni's study of Venetian guns in the short text Artiglieria Veneta (1779) but the last surviving guns were melted down during the Napoleonic occupation, who overlooked the huge potential of the weapons. Despite being hugely successful as weapons they never really got used as they were designed to be, Sigismondo III died in 1701 leaving a legacy of fantastic gun founding, however his greatest creation was never fully realised the gun sinking into obscurity rather than leaving the potentially huge legacy it could have.

Looking at the gun itself, its statistics are wonderfully impressive. Both the 120 libbre and 200 libbre models of the gun had a range of about 5000m, with an extremely high degree of accuracy to around 3500m, firing in an easily predictable and stable path, partly thanks to the steady advances of Venetian rifling since the 1540s, and also the cylindrical shot. The calibre of the 120 libbre was 212mm, compared to the 200 libbre's 265mm. The windage of the two guns stands out at 2.9mm, compared to even the best English guns of the period at around 7.5mm, with even the mighty carronade only achieving at best 3.7mm. Perhaps most impressively though was the design of its frame, the design of which incorporated a constant aiming system, where by the gun was continually following its target, something that wouldn't be seen again until 1898 when it was re-discovered by the Englishman Percy Scott, this was especially devastating when combined with its high rate of fire. Its also important to remember this staggeringly forward thinking cannon was, all achieved almost 150 years before the Paixhan's Gun, and almost 200 years before the Dahlgren gun, both of which despite having all the advantages of all the technological advances made during the 18th and 19th Century were both inferior to the tirar bombe.

bhYzB8I.jpg

Apologies its a little off topic, but the question was asked. As always thank you for reading :).

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12 hours ago, DonnellDR said:

My 3rd Rate!

 

Pedro I

Guns - 74

Nationality - 1763-1822 Portugal & 1822-1830 Brazil

Category - Third Rate

Pedro I  - 3.jpg

Pedro I - 5.jpg

Pedro I - 1.jpgPedro I - 2.jpg

Pedro I - 4.jpg

 

 

We Defenetly need a Porguese/Brazilian ship.

The Portuguese ships and sea history is so much important for our world history, and I feel kind of sad, because there is not any ship or mention to the portuguese in the game.

Would be nice to have something about the portuguese in the game, and that ship is nothing but awesome and beautiful. I wish it can be available.

 

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La Malicieuse

French 9-pdr frigate

32 guns

1756 - 1777

 

xCRI8B4.png

High res : http://www.sothebys.com/es/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/un-hommage-au-xviiie-sicle-adriano-ribolzi-antiquaire/lot.81.html

 

Armament : (historical) 26 x 8-pd + 6 x 4-pd ; (in-game suggestion) 26 x 9-pd + 6 x 6-pd 

Dimensions : 124'0" x 31'8" x 16'4"

Built by J.-J. Giroux at Le Havre.

 

Plan of the sistership La Brune :  http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/82724.html

large.jpg

 

Information

J. Boudriot, The History of the French Frigate, p. 86-88

- about La Malicieuse : http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=12538

- about La Blondehttp://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=11117

 

Thank you very much for the info Malachi!

Original post by Sella22 : http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/6241-5th-6th-rates-collection-with-plans/?do=findComment&comment=254965

Edited by LeBoiteux
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"Rainho de portugal"

1791

(also known as Rainha de Portugal)

large.jpg

 

A Portuguese 74 gun ship of the line armed with:

  • 28 x 36 pdr
  • 28 x 24pdr
  • 8 x 24pdr + 16 x 12pdr

With a Complement if 669 men

-> https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=7863

She was part in a joint operation fleet under Lord Howe's Channel Fleet in 1794, cruized to the Mediterranean in 1798-99 and went to brazil as part of the escort for the Braganza royal family in 1807. In absence of portuguese dockyard facilities the british took it upon them to service the portuguese fleet and thus we have the plans of this magnificient vessel in great detail.

 

This is apparently a dipiction of her:

P92701033.jpg

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Dear Friends of Naval Action:

We are many Spanish players who think that in this fantastic game the Real Armada Española is not properly represented in the ships currently developed in the game.

It is true that we have the Santísima Trinidad, which was the largest and most powerful ship of the line that has ever existed, but this is the only purely Spanish ship in the game and yet it is indisputable that the presence of Spanish ships in those times were, at that time, much more relevant than those of any other nation, in America as in any other part of the known world.

That is why I believe that Naval Action should incorporate other Spanish ships to do historical justice in a game that, even with all the licenses, aims to reproduce the glorious era of sailing.

I propose, as others have done before, the Montañés, because if there is a line vessel that represented the excellence of Spanish naval construction in the eighteenth century in terms of its extraordinary marine properties, it was this ship, To walk 14 knots with fresh wind to a long and 10 knots girding, when the normal one was 10 knots and 8 knots respectively.

As for his armament, in the battle of Trafalgar, carried a total of 76 guns:

• 28 - 36 pound cannons.
• 30 - 18 pound cannons.
•   8 -   8 pound cannons.
• 10 - 30-pound howitzers.

There are many sources of information that you can consult for the design and construction of this boat that have already indicated other companions, so I avoid doing it again to avoid unnecessary repetitions.

Please add El Montañés to Naval Action!

Greetings.

Edited by VCNT de Velasco
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I suggest the Portuguese Galleon Padre Eterno, Launched in 1663. 2000 tons displacement, she was built as a cargo vessel but later sold to the Portugeuse Navy. At 53 meters on the gun deck, the ship is only slightly longer than Bucentaure.

The Padre Eterno is listed as having an armament of 144 cannon, but I believe that no more than half of these would have been heavy cannon. If you compare the Padre Eterno, to contemporary ships such as the Dutch Gouden Leeuw (1666) 80-guns 50 meters on deck. The French Lys (1669) 70-guns, 46 meters on deck. The French Thérèse (1665) 58-guns, 51 meters on deck and the HMS Monmouth (1667) 66-guns, 45 meters on deck. And take into consideration that Padre Eterno was built as a merchant ship, it seems a reasonable assumption that she would have carried an armament of between 70-80 heavy guns and the rest would have been smaller swivels and falconets. 

There is no more famous Portuguese ship in this time frame. No plans or drawing exist for Padre Eterno, but since most galleons of this period were built to similar lines, it would not be difficult to create a very close approximation of the actual ship.

padre-terno-galleon.jpg

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10 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Aurora
Dutch
32-gun frigate, 145 X 40 ft, 1804

Later renamed Vriesland
 

   On 21/09/2015 at 3:49 AM, Zeekoning said: 

 

   On 12/01/2015 at 1:50 PM, Wicked Mouse said: 

 

Plans of a ship built on the same design :

See http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7327-discussion-player-ship-selection-1st-half-2016/?p=140545

None of those ships have any historical interest. As far as the lack of plans, Portuguese galleons during this period we're generally built to the same lines. As for being out of the time period of Naval Action, the ship was built only a couple of years before Wappen Von Hamburg. Galleons as a ship type we're actually built into the early 18th century.

Edited by The Old Pretender
Info, and grammer
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23 minutes ago, The Old Pretender said:

None of those ships have any historical interest. As far as the lack of plans, Portuguese galleons during this period we're generally built to the same lines. As for being out of the time period of Naval Action, the ship was built only a couple of years before Wappen Von Hamburg. Galleons as a ship type we're actually built into the early 18th century.

1) You're welcome.

2) NA Time Frame : 1690-1820 +/_ 5 years.

"Couple of years ?"

  • Padre Eterno :1663
  • Wappen Von Hamburg : 1722

3) Provide plans of early 18th-C Portuguese galleons to NA Shipyard section. It'd be much appreciated !

4) Remember :

On 30/08/2017 at 0:45 PM, admin said:

Requirements in broadside guns

  • Light frigates 32-36 guns (we have no ships in this range)
  • Heavy frigates 50-60 guns (we only have trincomalee and constitution in this range)
  • 3rd rates 70-80 guns (we only have 1.5 ships in this range)

All other gun counts will not be considered

Edited by LeBoiteux
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17 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

1) You're welcome.

2) NA Time Frame : 1690-1820 +/_ 5 years.

"Couple of years ?"

  • Padre Eterno :1663
  • Wappen Von Hamburg : 1722

3) Provide plans of early 18th-C Portuguese galleons to NA Shipyard section. It'd be much appreciated !

4) Remember :

I already explained the reasoning behind why I believe Padre Eterno would be a good choice. If it did not sink at sea, the ship would have probably lasted well into the eighteenth century. 

There are no plans because there were no plans. Ships during that period we're built to a set of builders rules not plans. The ships design could be reasonably reproduced based on it's dimensions and tonnage. 

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