Forthcoming patch final discussion.

[Kaos]

1 hour ago, admin said:

But there were a 100 on day one.
So risk free pvp against other people who are interested in risk free pvp does not interest risk free pvp fans? Does it mean that risk free pvp has zero retention? 
Did @TommyShelby meet @Otto Kohl and sank each other using 60 free redeemables (all new and unique ships), without any time wasting (everyone is near mortimer and you need to craft nothing, as everything is provide)

Or does it mean that wolves just don't want to fight wolves? (Even with double FPS and free ships). And getting pvp costs lower will have ZERO effect on pvp player goals?
Lets stop pretending. PvP players probably can't even retain each other. They need rabbits and should wait until we fix rabbit problems. 

Where do you think you got the combat feedback from? From wolves running down rabbits and telling you how to balance the game around it? For some reason all these ''wolves'' took their time and stopped hunting rabbits to participate in tournament somehow, hmm..definitely no demand for wolf meat anywhere to be seen.

There is no pretending here, maybe you don't like to fight wolves but to project it onto everyone else implying you know what others want more than themselves is a bit arrogant, don't you think?

Quality of fights > quantity of fights any time of the day, ask any seasoned pvp wolf and go look into magic moments topic if you forgot.

[TommyShelby]

4 minutes ago, koltes said:

We had it your way earlier this year and last year. Didnt help. I understand that you believe in that with all your heart that you catter for all, but no. You are not. I have spent 2 years in NA and between my main and my alts spent about 6-7k of hours of legit playing on many sides of a gameplay. I also have 140 people in my clan that no longer play. Lets not make this a dick measurement contest.

Yes your play style may suffer. If you choose to walk away so be it. But if you want it get better, you need to stay and provide feedback. Saying been there done that is ultimately denying any changes and tunings. 

The game WILL change to suit larger playerbase and it needs you with ur specific play style to help make it playable for you. It needs me to make it playable for me.

If you walked away dont blame it does not turned out the way you want it to be. We are here for one reason - test and make this game release. Its hard work. Often frustrating. But its sure as hell also has lots of fun in it.

Shit Im 41 and I cant remember spending so many hours on a single game THATISNOTEVENFINISHEDYET  since the days of Asheron's Call.

Clearly you have not read my comments here before writing this... 

I don't blame Admin and the other Devs for choosing to go down this path of making the game more about Crafting, Trading, PvE and RvR than OW PvP. It is their choice, and the OW PvP'ers are the minority. 

I've made what, 1,5k posts on these forums. The majority being feedback and suggestions. I've also been here since Sea Trials. 
I've endured so much shit, so many times (Referring to the many times we have tested stuff that practically destroyed my playstyle), i stuck with it and kept giving feedback. But you must understand the fact that we have tried alot of stuff before that clearly did not work, yet we go back to it every 6 months or so. 
Hell, every 6 months i have to say the same things in my feedback because we keep going back. 

The game clearly does not need my specific playstyle. If it did, then i wouldn't be "punished" for playing my way. Heck, with "AI Privateers", "AI Forts", "PvE Specific Drops" "Player AI fleets" i'm even forced to deal with AI all the time. I bought into Naval Action when i did because it was stated by Admin the game was going to be all about PvP. (And its fair enough that Admin/Game-Labs changed their plans for the game). It is just not for me. 

Fair winds to everyone. 

[Thonys]

sailed the  wasa 

feels like a SantiSMSA

looks like a thirt rate

and sails a little bit slow could not get a ai fleet in ow it did 20 knots optimal speed the AI (4 ships in fleet) was faster and outruns me

huge turning circle,  

pro...: is the guns they are great

and devastating 

accelerating turning and speed  is to slow for a 4 rate  it needs a little bit more 

the balance is good this    time

Edited August 22, 2017 by Thonys

[Duncan McFail]

@koltes you're completely right on the hunters paradise as the system is. It favors the hunters completely. Even to the point they can hunt capitals without worry. That issue needs some tweaking. 

@TommyShelby you're also right with involving AI in all aspects of the game. Having to grind npcs to find books is the worst. The fact that grinding npcs is quicker to unlock slots than pvping since the enemies don't repair 5 times and then run when they get close to death. It's the same thing with the rvr scene. We have to grind npc fleets to flip a port. The only fix for that is it's now in mission form.

What's starting to get to me is the people talking about how the game caters towards rvr instead of pvp. First thing is rvr is a form of pvp. Just as hunting and dueling are. Rvr traded up flags for hostility. One was instant gratification, but with the ability to buy multiple flags/counter flags and avoid a fight with little time to react. The other is hours spent grinding npc fleets and having to come back the next day with more than enough time to react. Before it was destroying 5 towers and chasing the enemy around before time runs out. Now it's having to split off to 3 circles and hopefully getting a few kills in before points end the fun. Many changes have came out to help rvr along and many changes have helped OW pvp also. I just don't see this patch fixing the majority of the issues players have with this game. 

[Genma Saotome]

14 hours ago, vazco said:

Again, please create an incentive system for wolves to be able to eat wolves, and things will start to work. Right now wolves are forced to eat bots to go anywhere, while everyone is chasing or escaping everyone else. It's all about incentives! Just make fun battles profitable.

Yes, you're right - giving wolves better access to remaining sheep is a bad idea and won't lead anywhere. 

Make rewards a function of both the strength of the ship sunk/captured and the combat XP of its captain.  Sort of: a wolf eating two hundred mice = a wolf eating another wolf...  you can choose to grind or you can go big and take the big risk.

[masterANDcommander]

Well the XP Bonus for pvp is way to low even if you would get 2 xp for pvp i still would gain more xp in a good 4th rate Misson than i the last 4th rate Portbattel i had.

And sorry i think a Portbattel should bring more Reward than a PVE Misson.

[King of Crowns]

@Duncan McFail    even still to this day france hasn't lost all its ports. Gg BRAH. 

[BallsOfSteel]

13 hours ago, admin said:

Well. Instantly closed battles for example were a baby of active forum and private discussions with pvp players (hunters) including Rakers

And instantly closed battles indeed made pvp hunting better. But they did not increase pvp. In fact they reduced it (based on data). We given this feature a long time to test itself. Yet it failed to bring expected results. 

Keeping battles open long enough for player reinforcements will make the pvp gankers who hunt in odds to suit them think a lot harder about what they asre doing and give some poor sods hope of assistance instead of players sailing to a location to see those words "Battle Closed". Oh wait it was called signal perk

[Sarversauce]

Taxes, are bad for the game. Horrible idea.
 Giving a clan the ability to decide how much? Even worse.  Watch players leave.

"Clan Wars" for RvR. Horrible.  Because say I spend 8 hours working the waters near a port to get into a Port Battle, and then 20 guys come along from a clan, or bigger clan than I'm in, and they all get Hostility on that port. Who do you think is going to get into the Port Battle? Yup, not me.  That system is garbage, get rid of it.

The issues for this game are not the RvR overall, but the following:

1. Players are able to camp in a battle for up to 90 minutes. The battle goes invisible after a few minutes, so they are hidden. - This is bad and allows for ganking because when those players get out of battle they get a 40kt speed buff for 40 seconds, AND they're invisible.  This is hugely broken. Remove the speed buff, keep the battle listed on the OW permanently until all players have left the battle. (That way we can see who's in there.) Invisibility is fine.

2. The Grind. The amount of time this game takes to play on a daily basis, 3-6 hours. If you have to go fight someplace that's 2-3 hours sail away, and you get sunk, you have to get into a Basic Cutter from the Nearest Friendly Port, and sail back 2-3 hours to replace your ship or get another one worth using.  Nobody is going to want to do that  repeatedly.
 The Grind 2.0 Leveling Noobs or lower level players is horrible. The current game mechanic prevents leveling noobs effectively, because combat rewards Money/XP are entirely based on the damage a player does during the battle. ( The rewards for missions pay garbage, has this been "fixed"?) Low level players can't group up with more than 1 or 2 others because the damage and pay/xp benefit goes down. The idea would be to pay the players more at lower level for going into higher level battles.

3. The Learning Curve, aka Vertical Cliff.  Players come into the game for an average of about 2 weeks, and leave. Why? Because the learning curve and detailed information isn't written anywhere. You have to physically show them, and teach them how to sail, how Cannons work, and how Wind Advantage works, thus leading to strategies in battle. - Add to the fact that this also requires higher level knowledgeable players to take time from what ever they are doing and help the lowbies out.  While I don't have a problem with that personally, it's adding to the overall grindiness of the game. The amount of time people need to do simple things like kill NPCs for money and XP is lengthy.  Battles take a long time, which I don't mind, and sailing everywhere takes a long time.  90% of the population doesn't have this kind of time.  - This alone will kill the population in this game... or already has.

Other reasons: Alts. Alts need to go away. 
 The "Snitch Channel" needs to go away.  We don't get other non-time period base perks to help with sailing, like a location dot on the map of where a player is located. So why should players be snitched on with a channel that tells them where other people are PvPing? This doesn't make any sense with the consistency of the Developers wanting to keep things "old school".  You can't have it both ways.
 NPCs are way Overpowered.  Gun arc angles to shoot are way wider than for Players.  Boarding Combat, WAY OP for NPCs,  NPCs get an armor and turning and speed/accel bonsus, even when they have a severely diminished crew. NPCs do way more damage than their guns should allow based on ships stock cannon listing.
 Players do not get paid, and get no XP for Capturing an NPC ship, but still have to pay for repairs. - At least give the Player XP for the battle.

[Slim McSauce]

can we stop with the e-peen stroking and stick to the patch?

I like the ideas for the conquest. I think clan run RVR will add more freedom to the game as whole, clans can still work together as a nation. Hostility missions I REALLY REALLY LIKE! NO MORE JUMPING THE FRONT AND TAKING CAPITAL PORTS! Much less cheesy than it is now. 

Any plans to further develop RVR after this? Or just see how these changes go and work from there?

[Capn Rocko]

@admin Why are there no planned changes to the pirate nation? Every pirate that is left on PvP EU has no interest in conquest, but yet, we are forced to play by the rules of conquest. Why not give the non-RVR'ers an option of gameplay that is different from other nations? 

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Capn Rocko said:

@admin Why are there no planned changes to the pirate nation? Every pirate that is left on PvP EU has no interest in conquest, but yet, we are forced to play by the rules of conquest. Why not give the non-RVR'ers an option of gameplay that is different from other nations? 

 

Cause they need to get every thing else working including nationals and conquest and other system before they spend time on making any pirate mechanics.  That is if they ever do.  This isn't about pirates it's about working on the RvR and conquest system that is not yet nailed down and set in stone along with other things involving OW PvP and PvE.  Until such time Pirates are just another nation just like the other 7 other nations, we just gt FFA battles is all.

[Skully]

2 hours ago, koltes said:

Everyone wants to fight on their terms.

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 10:24 PM, Skully said:

A question, when is BLACK going to realize nobody wants to fight you on your terms?

I think everybody else already knows you won't fight on their terms. 

There is a reason why The Free Empire is named as such.  Anyway...

Before I declare the Age of Eternal peace, as discussed within the shadow, I'll now state my terms:

8 hours ago, admin said:

Explain this - why there are no players on testbed slugging it out in so called low risk pvp?

Why should I sail out and fight? What is the end game?

[Zoky]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:20 PM, admin said:

All uncapturable major regions will provide protection to players of their nation (minor regions and all other towns will not provide this protection)

• If the player is attacked in that region he will be able to call to heavy reinforcements that will spawn within 500m of the player with the only goal - get his enemies to the bottom of the sea. 
• Reinforcement fleets will be sufficiently buffed to both defend a player and not let the enemy escape.
• Skilled captains will of course be able to sink the person who they attack (if they bring good numbers) but they will sink too giving some closure to the defender if he sank.

 

??? WTF??? So if I do piracy on traders they can just call bs reinforcements? WTF were you thinking? You might as well remove pirates from game 

On 8/21/2017 at 11:45 PM, admin said:

There are only 75 players who actively do pvp daily  (on pvp eu)

If this reinforcement makes it in you can kiss those players goodbye.

If you truly wish to improve PvP then decrease hello kittying accuracy of stern guns!!!

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Zoky said:

??? WTF??? So if I do piracy on traders they can just call bs reinforcements? WTF were you thinking? You might as well remove pirates from game 

If this reinforcement makes it in you can kiss those players goodbye.

If you truly wish to improve PvP then decrease hello kittying accuracy of stern guns!!!

Only in uncapturable major regions.

Admin also wrote :
Skilled captains will of course be able to sink the person who they attack (if they bring good numbers) but they will sink too giving some closure to the defender if he sank.

So you should be fine with dealing with the trader, no?

 

[z4ys]

We play a game about combat on a pvp server and the only working mechanics so far are mechanics to avoid combat. Mechanics that are in place to protect new players but they are to new to the game to understand them. 

For example reinforcements a while ago:

 

Behavior of a new player:

call reinforcements and keep sailing away. Normally the enemy player ships are better and therefore faster. So while AI is in chasing mode they are stupid easy game to run down the running Noob.

 

Behavior of the vet player:

He will call reinforcements shortly before the join timer runs down. Then he will stick close to AI and hide behind their ships. While AI is slowly killing his opponents he just has to deliver the final blow.

 

Evey other mechanic in place works the same way. Forts, invisibility and speed, perma mods, to just name a few.

So how we can fight wolves @admin when they use the sheep fence to hide from the enemy wolf pack?

[Quineloe]

Has anyone noticed yet how no one is talking about the thumbnail in the first post about x2 exp/gold ?

What does it mean, exactly? Is it a bonus applied to all PVP and PVE? How does it stack with the current 50% gold / exp bonus for PVP? Do you get 250% or 300% of the reward for a kill?

[Skully]

10 minutes ago, Jœrnson said:

24 minutes ago, Zoky said:

??? WTF??? So if I do piracy on traders they can just call bs reinforcements? WTF were you thinking? You might as well remove pirates from game 

If this reinforcement makes it in you can kiss those players goodbye.

If you truly wish to improve PvP then decrease hello kittying accuracy of stern guns!!!

Only in uncapturable major regions.

Ah wait,

On 8/22/2017 at 8:04 AM, Skully said:

an uncapturable Capital has just proven to be a troll factory (for both sides).

A reason to not sail?

[z4ys]

9 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

Has anyone noticed yet how no one is talking about the thumbnail in the first post about x2 exp/gold ?

What does it mean, exactly? Is it a bonus applied to all PVP and PVE? How does it stack with the current 50% gold / exp bonus for PVP? Do you get 250% or 300% of the reward for a kill?

I bet pve in the safe zone will still be more gold xp per hour than pvp in the center

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Skully said:

Ah wait,

A reason to not sail?

That everyone has to decide for himself.

[Guest]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:45 PM, admin said:

I like battle escalations and surprises. Both positive (someone joins me) and negative (someone joins you).  
There are only 75 players who actively do pvp daily  (on pvp eu) - get written into a combat chat. From 2000 logins. 
Maybe we gave too much country for old men pvp players??

V

17 hours ago, Aegir said:

PvP players vs PvP player -> ~15 knot ships vs ~15 knot ships -> If either side wants to disengage for whichever reason (which is the case in, what, 90% of the engagements?), it turns into an endless chase scene of bow vs stern chasers and sail repairs every now and then.

So naturally, PvPers, gankers, coast guard, whomever, is almost forced to either target slower ships or not even bother - hence PvErs and fully laden traders become the sole target available and countering PvPers in homewaters is a pointless endeavour.

It turns OW PvP into a big fat "meh" for anyone who wants to do more than just gank mission runners

 

[qw569😳]

On 8/22/2017 at 0:20 AM, admin said:

• New taxation feature
  • Nations will tax all transactions that are using money done through (Stamp tax)
    • Private Trade
    • Contracts (they are already taxed)
    • Public trade using the stores
    • Ship transactions
  • Barter transactions will not be taxed
  • Crafting and resource gathering will not be taxed

 

Who can see stats about tax income?

Will there any stats about potential tax income of all capturable ports?

On 8/22/2017 at 0:20 AM, admin said:

• • Clans will have to pay maintenance for cities they control
    • Maintenance will automatically be paid 
    • Maintenance will be calculated based on the city tax level but will not be lower than X (for example 500k per day)
    • If maintenance is not paid the city will turn back to neutral

 

I hope You'll implement online in the formula of maintatenance cost.

Edited August 23, 2017 by qw569

[vazco]

12 hours ago, admin said:

But there were a 100 on day one.
So risk free pvp against other people who are interested in risk free pvp does not interest risk free pvp fans? Does it mean that risk free pvp has zero retention? 
Did @TommyShelby meet @Otto Kohl and sank each other using 60 free redeemables (all new and unique ships), without any time wasting (everyone is near mortimer and you need to craft nothing, as everything is provide)

Or does it mean that wolves just don't want to fight wolves? (Even with double FPS and free ships). And getting pvp costs lower will have ZERO effect on pvp player goals?
Lets stop pretending. PvP players probably can't even retain each other. They need rabbits and should wait until we fix rabbit problems. 

You're right about the fact that risk is not a problem. The problem is that PvP is not profitable. Even testbed looses with PvE missions, as they give you meaningful rewards and some sense of purpose.

Currently wolf-on-wolf PvP is next to impossible outside of PB, as even groups run from you. It's also unprofitable and requires too much PvE grind. Current PvP is focused on hunting traders and weaker players, and running from stronger or even groups. That's because fighting an even enemy has high risk and low reward. New patch will remove such PvP. It's ok, as it only hurts new players and it's not fun.

Please however bring us an option to have fun battles, with no running/chasing and no PvE grinding to get to them, and with a sense of purpose. The only way to do this is to make it profitable for people to fight in PvP when numbers are even, instead of running. This can be done by RoE (probably hard to do), player-started battle events, or any other means. It should be however possible to fight an engaging PvP within 30-60 minutes after you login to the server.
 

Organized battles - small and large - are the best part of your game. New people get hooked when they participate in such battle, either with a commander or with a group of people that tell them how to act. Those that do only PvE usually leave once they get their rank up, or once they grow bored with fighting bots. Because of this, I think the newest patch doesn't address the main issue, even if it's the step into the right direction.

Edited August 23, 2017 by vazco

[Sven Silberbart]

..and give rewards to players for participate in pvp battles. Why? Because every player want to see a progress when he spend time into the game. It is ok for everyone the winner get more than den looser, but give all of them rewards. Dont reward only the damage some player do on hull. Every kind of play style should be rewarded. Look at GW2. That game is doing it excessively, but it works. But players have to do something. Just stay around isn't enough. Maybe give points over time period and for all kinds of damage or repair activities or something. Maybe as closer you are at an enemy as more points you earn per tick. So the player who risk much, do earn much. Give the players shooting from larger (and safer) distances also points but a bit fewer. Give some points for fight with lower numbers and guns against bigger superior enemies.

And at the end: Calculate the reward by the sum of the points

Edited August 23, 2017 by Sven Silberbart

[shaeberle84]

12 hours ago, admin said:

Stay on topic captains. Captains who derail discussions to side issues make feedback comprehension hard. Off topic commenters will be temporarily placed on pre-mod as they make it impossible to have a constructive conversation about specific issues mentioned in the main post. 

 

To all players who commented about cost of pvp here.
Explain this - why there are no players on testbed slugging it out in so called low risk pvp? All slots are unlocked, all ships are free (loads of them). Where is nonstop pvp on testbed?

Regarding the Testbed: there were too few people online, when I logged in; and I had some graphical difficulties.

Regarding live server:

1) Cost of battles:

We need assist rewards for damage, even when the ships are not sunk. 20% hull, 20% crew or a mast need to give assist rewards. Otherwhise long, indecisive battles are very frustrating and money-consuming.

Also: assist rewards for people who have helped boarding a ship (not for the one actually getting the ship, this is fine).

2) Cost of ships:

NPC (bought or captured) ships up to 5th rate are quite cheap. They are through-away ships and can be used to have fun in groups, mixed with some good ships. However, if you are alone, you need a good ship (fast ships with upgrades).

Really good ships are expensive, you have to craft longs rather than using cheap mediums from the PVE grind, more repairs and, most importantly: upgrades.

Upgrades are so darn expensive because the production of the ressources needed is capped. There are 5 cartahena tar a day and that is it. Why? If players are willing to pay about 10x the normal shop price, why would the city not increase its production? We need dynamic production of those ressources (we need dynamic prices overall, but that is another question).

 

Sum up:

With these fixed, I think PVP could be financed by average players.