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Slamz

Make Repairs x4 more effective on the OW

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tl;dr: Repairs used in the open world heal 4x as much as repairs used in combat.

I like the way repairs work in combat and I'm fine with the fact that it's pretty expensive. This at least creates some risk and a balancing act in how many you want to bring: more is better but it's expensive and heavy.

But on the open sea I always feel it's a bit ridiculous when I click repair and go through like 30+ repairs. It's just a logistical hassle, especially if you're looking to flip ports by grinding fleets: you'll need to carry several hundred repairs.

But if repairs simply healed 4x as much outside of combat, it would make them cheap to repair your ship with when you're out of danger while keeping in-combat repairs costly.

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Bad idea. Attrition should be a real problem with repairs if a gang is getting in multiple fights. 

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1 hour ago, Slamz said:

if you're looking to flip ports by grinding fleets

That is the real problem. Flipping ports should depend on PvP, not PvE.

(Still pondering the issue.)

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21 minutes ago, Skully said:

That is the real problem. Flipping ports should depend on PvP, not PvE.

(Still pondering the issue.)

Genial solution that implies that if the players of the faction owning the port do not show for the combat, you cannot flip it.

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Have not played in some time but I can remember in the short time I played after wipe, when one side was damaged 20% it used up almost all my repairs and forced me back to outpost which was 20 min away. My motivation to sail back was nearly 0 when I arrived at the outpots.

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9 hours ago, victor said:

Genial solution that implies that if the players of the faction owning the port do not show for the combat, you cannot flip it.

I think you missed a couple of important posts which highlight the issue I mention, a disagreement between admin and myself over hostility buildup:

I think I'll bring this top level and also note down admin's replies, so we'll see it in full context.

Edited by Skully

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7 hours ago, Pada said:

Have not played in some time but I can remember in the short time I played after wipe, when one side was damaged 20% it used up almost all my repairs and forced me back to outpost which was 20 min away. My motivation to sail back was nearly 0 when I arrived at the outpots.

Were you filled to the brim with repairs? Or did you underestimate the expedition?

20% damage on one side is hardly anything.

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23 hours ago, Flinch said:

Bad idea. Attrition should be a real problem with repairs if a gang is getting in multiple fights. 

Why? What does that do other than waste your time trying to figure out where they went and their time because they had to sail back to a port to pick up more repairs?

It might be different if this was WOW or Life is Feudal where you want to cause attrition so that the people have to run away so that you can get back to what you really wanted to do -- kill that boss mob and take his loot or complete step 6 of your "kill 20 wolves" quest or beat on trees for 20 minutes to get lumber. These are time consuming actions that you need enemies to leave you alone so you can do.

There's not really anything like that in Naval Action. If you leave to go get more repairs, it just means I'm going to be bored trying to find someone else to fight. I'd rather you repair up here so we can have another blowout battle ASAP. The real attrition of NA is ship loss.

23 hours ago, JobaSet said:

They don't want you flipping ports in one go mate.  

Everyone flips ports in one go.

In fact, if you don't flip it in one go it's worthless to try if there are any defenders who care about it at all. You'll log on the next day and contention will be zero.

Edited by Slamz
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23 minutes ago, Slamz said:

Why? What does that do other than waste your time trying to figure out where they went and their time because they had to sail back to a port to pick up more repairs?

It might be different if this was WOW or Life is Feudal where you want to cause attrition so that the people have to run away so that you can get back to what you really wanted to do -- kill that boss mob and take his loot or complete step 6 of your "kill 20 wolves" quest or beat on trees for 20 minutes to get lumber. These are time consuming actions that you need enemies to leave you alone so you can do.

There's not really anything like that in Naval Action. If you leave to go get more repairs, it just means I'm going to be bored trying to find someone else to fight. I'd rather you repair up here so we can have another blowout battle ASAP. The real attrition of NA is ship loss.

Everyone flips ports in one go.

In fact, if you don't flip it in one go it's worthless to try if there are any defenders who care about it at all. You'll log on the next day and contention will be zero.

Obviously if a nation is blockading a capital they will want the gang doing so to leave at some point rather than be able to blockade indefinitely if attrition isn't a problem.

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2 hours ago, Slamz said:

There's not really anything like that in Naval Action. If you leave to go get more repairs, it just means I'm going to be bored trying to find someone else to fight. I'd rather you repair up here so we can have another blowout battle ASAP. The real attrition of NA is ship loss.

Ah but there is. We have had ships pull away from fleet to retreat for repairs. Granted, frustrating to the fleet commander and captain, but definitely a tactical issue, not a mechanic one.

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17 hours ago, Skully said:

Ah but there is. We have had ships pull away from fleet to retreat for repairs. Granted, frustrating to the fleet commander and captain, but definitely a tactical issue, not a mechanic one.

Usually when this happens to us, we ALL go back.

We don't want the one guy in his Connie having to sail back by himself to get repairs and in a group of, say, 5 people, having a Connie drop out may be worth waiting for.

So the theory is that it results in attrition but in practice I find it results in the entire group taking a 30 minute time out (possibly much longer, depending on how close the nearest port is). I mostly feel it just slows down the pace of an already slow game.

It's also why there should be a way to trade at sea.

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On 8/21/2017 at 4:56 PM, Slamz said:

Usually when this happens to us, we ALL go back.

We did as well, until it was used against us. :P

On 6/15/2016 at 8:44 PM, Skully said:

gallery_11395_392_178165.jpg

Forming at Bonacca, without a Pirate in sight the British are forming their real attack force. Nine 4th and two 5th rates come at the ready.

While sailing to reform at Truxillo, the British commander makes the astute assumption the Pirates will stick around Black River, never to leave their last man alone.

We adapted and now reform fleets and ships more fluidly.

On 8/21/2017 at 4:56 PM, Slamz said:

It's also why there should be a way to trade at sea.

On 7/30/2017 at 11:29 PM, Skully said:

I think the question becomes, is resupply at sea a valid tactic or not?

It is a modern concept and has little to do with 18th century sailing.

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It's one of the concessions to reality we have to make when we consider that a Naval Action player sinks more ships in one night than most real life naval captains sank in their entire career. Ships didn't set sail with enough repairs (and cannon balls) to sink 20+ ships in one go but that's what we have to do.

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On 8/20/2017 at 6:47 AM, Slamz said:

tl;dr: Repairs used in the open world heal 4x as much as repairs used in combat.

I like the way repairs work in combat and I'm fine with the fact that it's pretty expensive. This at least creates some risk and a balancing act in how many you want to bring: more is better but it's expensive and heavy.

But on the open sea I always feel it's a bit ridiculous when I click repair and go through like 30+ repairs. It's just a logistical hassle, especially if you're looking to flip ports by grinding fleets: you'll need to carry several hundred repairs.

But if repairs simply healed 4x as much outside of combat, it would make them cheap to repair your ship with when you're out of danger while keeping in-combat repairs costly.

Agree, though still think that in battle repairs need to either go back to 1 repair per type and no timers or go to 30 minutes independend (not linked) timers. In lots of cases fights turned into who has more repairs wins

Edited by koltes

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38 minutes ago, koltes said:

Agree, though still think that in battle repairs need to either go back to 1 repair per type and no timers or go to 30 minutes independend (not linked) timers. In lots of cases fights turned into who has more repairs wins

I think the solution there may be to keep it as-is but slow down repairs significantly.

Like the goal should be that if you meet the crew requirements for repairing with 100% of what it's asking for ("200/200") then it takes 10 minutes to do that repair.

This makes repairs be a slow burn, meaning it takes away a huge portion of your crew for a long time and can be outdamaged. In 1v1 combat, not wanting to shut down gunnery in order to fill out repairs, that 1 repair might drag on for 20 minutes. It will still be important in group fights but in 1v1s, repairing in active combat will be tricky.

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44 minutes ago, Slamz said:

I think the solution there may be to keep it as-is but slow down repairs significantly.

Like the goal should be that if you meet the crew requirements for repairing with 100% of what it's asking for ("200/200") then it takes 10 minutes to do that repair.

This makes repairs be a slow burn, meaning it takes away a huge portion of your crew for a long time and can be outdamaged. In 1v1 combat, not wanting to shut down gunnery in order to fill out repairs, that 1 repair might drag on for 20 minutes. It will still be important in group fights but in 1v1s, repairing in active combat will be tricky.

I like the idea but I also feel then the repair "modules" need a look at as many of them have repair time bonuses that make a big change in how repairs work.
I'm not sure on the current time, but even with just 2 repair knowledge/refit mods the difference in repair time is quite significant. if we did a 10 minute "slow burn" but did not change the these repair bonuses you're looking at someone with no bonuses doing 10 minutes, whereas someone with these bonuses could potentially finish 4 minutes faster.

maybe it's better that way, but I am concerned on the outcome.

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I would probably just get rid of repair time bonuses. The actual repair bonus itself is why anyone would pick up those skills anyway. If we need to buff them to compensate (which I doubt) then we can always make them add some bonus to leak repair something ancillary like that.

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4 hours ago, Slamz said:

I think the solution there may be to keep it as-is but slow down repairs significantly.

Like the goal should be that if you meet the crew requirements for repairing with 100% of what it's asking for ("200/200") then it takes 10 minutes to do that repair.

This makes repairs be a slow burn, meaning it takes away a huge portion of your crew for a long time and can be outdamaged. In 1v1 combat, not wanting to shut down gunnery in order to fill out repairs, that 1 repair might drag on for 20 minutes. It will still be important in group fights but in 1v1s, repairing in active combat will be tricky.

That would also work and personally I'm totally fine with it, though people in general will be against this idea because it makes THAT repair that they have and can use kind of useless. Its almost like having no repair at all as they will sink before that repair is apllied.

Reducing repairs to 1 per type per battle like it was before is simplier and easier to apply without changing mods / upgrades / skills / perks. It makes the decision making early in the battle more important too.

Agree, repairs today actually too fast. The repair process timer could easility be doubled and it still will be fast enough. So they should really double the repair timer AND make 1 repair per type per battle again. Still uses same amount of hull repairs for example, but only does it once in the battle. Same for rigs and rum

 

Edited by koltes

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The difference I see is that "1 repair only" is fine for 1v1 but is a pain for group fights and will damage group tactics.

1v1 mostly it would be used at a point where you are deciding if you are going to stick it out or run away. The point you pop your repair is where you would have to make that call.

In groups it's more complicated.

"As many repairs as you have time for but each one takes 10 minutes" will allow current group tactics to continue to exist. Pulling out to repair, if you can, will always be a valuable thing. Ideally you'd want to pull back while your teammates cover for you, throw your crew into repair and just live with what plinking you can do for those 10 minutes with what you have left in gunnery.

Since group fights easily run for 30-60 minutes, it means there's a huge difference between "3 slow repairs" and "only 1 repair".

So I think "slow repairs, as many as you have time for" is an idea that would work well for both 1v1 and group fights. It will also end up helping gank victims, assuming they aren't slow. Long slow repairs are the bane of gankers that rely on front chasers to slow a victim down.

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12 hours ago, Slamz said:

The difference I see is that "1 repair only" is fine for 1v1 but is a pain for group fights and will damage group tactics.

It requires different thinking and tactics. Like me occupying @Jeheil long enough for others to win the battle. (Anything else @Jeheil will report is fake news, I tell you, fake news.  :P)

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