[Serious] Server Health

[Teutonic]

As I see it, the way things are going = The Server is going to die or become so stagnant that it won't be any different from the PvE server.

We have Groups who don't want to RvR and Groups who don't want to PvP. We have alliance blocs that are basically the same as last time, and I attribute that fault at both sides of the coin.

This is a call to Really create a Global-Server Agreement. Can it be done? I'm not sure, but it really should happen.

Whether it's minimum ports for all nations or other general options. What do people want? How should we encourage activities like PvP or RvR while also allowing players to do what they want without being beat on everyday.

I'm not French, I'm not BORK here, I am a player wishing for other players to not get sick of the situation and leave. I'm honestly hearing it from players in all nations that they are near the quitting point. There is absolutely no reason to point fingers, Lets hear what we can all do to insure folks enjoy logging in and encouraging others to do the same.

 

[King of Crowns]

server merge is  the only solution to the problem.

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

1 minute ago, King of Crowns said:

server merge is  the only solution to the problem.

Its only a bandaid. Wont stop the bleeding permanently. 

[King of Crowns]

Just now, Davos Seasworth said:

Its only a bandaid. Wont stop the bleeding permanently. 

we cannot do the devs job for them. its their job to create content for the players to want to stick around and play.

[Teutonic]

1 minute ago, King of Crowns said:

we cannot do the devs job for them. its their job to create content for the players to want to stick around and play.

course not, but We can figure out a player solution for the current hello kittyery we are in until Devs bring another patch or different game-play options to the table. Well, if it's possible to get others on board.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Teutonic

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

13 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

we cannot do the devs job for them. its their job to create content for the players to want to stick around and play.

No hello kitty. Lets look at the current on global. Sweden, Dutch, and Spain are unable to do RvR. Too small to field a PB fleet when they are all on. France and Danmark really only can field a full PB on opposite hours. Pirates and GB seem to be only factions that can do RvR on all hours it seems. OW pvp has devolved to camping a factions capital. There have been solutions and chances for change but people were/are too stubborn to adjust, loyal to a faction, not willing to build, etc. 

This community needs to get together and put their egos and loyalties aside if they want to solve any sort of problem. Just merging servers will solve nothing. Nothing long term at least which should be our target goal. Too often people have been fine with short term.

Devs need to focus on creating content rather than having to step back to issues that people are having with the game based upon the population such as RvR right now. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Davos Seasworth

[Slamz]

I always think it comes down to one simple thing:

People are too afraid to PvP. And there's no reason for it. I think the game would be 100% more fun for everyone if they just followed the simple formula I have been shouting from the rooftops in every thread I can:

1) Build a fir/fir Surprise.
2) Put longs on it.
3) Put 1 speed mod on it -- admirality speed figurehead is fine. If you can get a 2nd speed mod great but don't sweat it.
4) Go hunt. (Ideally, get with at least 1 friend and go hunt.)
5) Once you have some experience in this, feel free to modify the above parameters. Try other ships. Try other guns. Try other woods. If you're ballsy, a Bellona is probably the best OW PvP ship but maybe get your feet wet (literally) with a few Surprises first.

This is a simple and cheap plan and you can't tell me there's a veteran player who cannot afford to try this 10 times over.

I think the Brits have done a great job exploring the possibilities of PvP and have really stepped up to the plate on this. I see Brits sinking people on the regular now and I didn't just a few weeks ago. A lot of people seem to raise PvP up to some nearly unattainable level of "oh you need these mods and all 5 slots unlocked and these ships with these rare woods" and none of that is true. I killed so many people in a storebought Surprise that was fir/crew space and eventually had to sell it to make dock space because nobody could sink the bloody thing. It's amazing what you can do (and what you can escape from) with just a few competent mates.

I think even USA players have stepped up. I dunno exactly what they're doing but I see them sinking people now and it looked a lot more one-sided last month.

The question in my mind is "why aren't still more people doing this".

SOME pirate clans have stepped up to the plate and will fight like this.

SOME Danish clans are fighting.

But it seems a lot of big talkers are nowhere to be found on the open sea. We should be having tons of fun hunting for each other's PvPers on the open world. Why aren't more people doing this?

And I do think there's a big game fault here in that RvR and PvP are so totally separated from each other but let's have some real talk: RvR is a drag on this game. There is so little fun to be had there and too many gimmicks that spoil it way too easily. PvP has some gimmicks and lame mechanics too but overall it's a much more available form of fun.

I think a lot of people who quit would enjoy the game if they just did what I suggested above. We really just need more people doing that and the fun grows exponentially.

Sitting back and grinding missions or only logging in for empty port battles is what kills clans.

[Teutonic]

so @Slamz lets say the issue it distance, or low pop, or whatever else we can come up with.

Should we make a "Thunderdome"? I.E. A place in the map that all nations agree to have a port ownership or something nearby AND to consider that area the active PVP zone? I know for sure we can't force people to go there and some would surely enjoy missions or trading every once in a while.

So lets say the map is too big for some people, Why not we as players, make a solution by picking a part of the map we can all agree to go to for PvP?

Just to be clear, I don't think anything is wrong with going anywhere on the map and PvPing, but I think it would go a long way for all those players saying "where's the action?" "why should I sail X hours to possibly find something?" and instead we respond saying "hey guy, all nations have agreed X, Y, Z, is where to go for PvP, you can definitely find someone out there."

[Bach]

We need to pick dodge ball teams and create our own arena for "king of the hill" and such. Seriously.

We need the major clans to sit down and hammer out a mix of who joins which nations to create better competitive teams. Some nations will need to be purposely left out of the mix until population improves.  Then we need to agree to get each competitive nation one county near the center of the map we all agree not to take so that player can teleport in.  It would also be good to determine an RvR target that we can all fight over for those that like that. Each nation could ante up a prize fee going to the winner each cycle. 

Again, if population improves we can always just go back to the way it was. But until then if we get together and create teams that contain players with the essential elements for RvR, PvP and econ logistics across 3-4 competitive nations we can probably improve the game remarkably.

Suggestion: Dump Spain, Sweden, Dutch and delegate the pirate team to pure scally wags. Divide the rest of us into Britain, France, USA and Danish. Then pick regions to contest over for prize money.

*** Using Spain over Danes would be more historically accurate but you would have to like that sort of thing.

[Christendom]

short term - the servers need to be merged to provide content for the 600-700 folks that remain.

long term - game really needs to be re-focused as to what works.  Come up with a new system that will allow players to play within their timezones for RVR but still throw everyone in one big pot (server) until release or the population levels necessitate multiples.  Bring back flags with a few twists or something like that.  I think the importance of RVR needs to secondary to the rest of the game.  20% of the population plays RVR, stop catering ONLY to those groups.

As for global, we have too many nations and not enough players to fill them.  If some of you remember back in our "global summit" I suggested that we try to focus as many players into 4 nation blocks as possible to provide enough content for everyone.  This of course didn't happen and we now have populations where nations cannot RVR.  France barely has enough, Danes appear to have enough.....but their only time zone counterparts inexplicably joined them instead of fighting them, the pirates are super strong, the US has the numbers but zero organization and the Brits kinda have enough, though only at certain times.  I still maintain that for the server to right itself, players need to move over to some of the larger ones and help supplement themselves into the RVR fleets.  For example if one of the french clans went to the US or Brits with 10 guys in the EST time zone they would instantly change that nation for the better and then that nation would be able to challenge BLACK and the pirates.  This is of course if people deem RVR still worthwhile and I'm not sure it is.  

But lets also address the elephant in the room.  BLACK has probably caused more people to leave this server than the devs and the insane grind.  They bully other nations, take ports nations can't possibly defend right next to their capitals and camped their noobs and commerce mercilessly.  I mentioned this earlier today to @admin, but I was speaking to a PARF member last night in the US about their situation.  If you're not familiar, PARF is a newer US clan that was started by that fairly popular streamer Pixie during the steam summer sale.  They got a decent amount of numbers and were all mostly new players just starting out.  Unfortunately they and the rest of the US lost Savannah previously and have had their noobs getting jumped in missions and their econ basically destroyed all because of BLACK clans insistence on having Savannah.  This PARF member pretty much told me that the clan is dead, the streamer Pixie quit a couple weeks ago and there are only a couple left.  Most of them found doing econ and grinding too difficult right outside their capital.  It's honestly a shame.  I blame the devs for not providing enough protection for new players and of course BLACK for basically seal clubbing the shit out of a nation that needed to rebuild.  PARF clan actually orchestrated a shallows battle at West End a month back and because they "flipped" a pirate port the pirates decided to just up and take Bermuda from them as punishment.    

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Christendom

[seanjo]

The problem as I see it is new guys getting attacked and losing everything they just spent hours working for. If you take out your shiny new TBrig packed full of a profitable cargo that you invest all your gold in and lose the lot it is demoralising and if it keeps repeating, off putting. Getting rid of rookie areas was a mistake, but I believe putting a rank restriction on PvP up to 1st Lt or equivalent, will give new people a chance to get established and gain competence in battles (through combat missions), once the NA bug has them then they will be less likely to quit.

[Macjimm]

25 minutes ago, seanjo said:

The problem as I see it is new guys getting attacked and losing everything they just spent hours working for. If you take out your shiny new TBrig packed full of a profitable cargo that you invest all your gold in and lose the lot it is demoralising and if it keeps repeating, off putting. Getting rid of rookie areas was a mistake, but I believe putting a rank restriction on PvP up to 1st Lt or equivalent, will give new people a chance to get established and gain competence in battles (through combat missions), once the NA bug has them then they will be less likely to quit.

But this is an MMO.  The content is very much what the players create for themselves. 

If we had the will we could create our own rookie areas.  Losing a Trader full of profitable cargo should be disappointing, if it doesn't matter at all the game would be dull.  But one does not have to sustain big losses.  First off it might be smarter not to invest all of your gold in one trade voyage.  Don't risk what you can not afford to lose.  Spend some time in a basic ship or a small fast one.  Explore the ports.  Chat up some fellow sailors from your own nation and get to know them,.  Check out prices and learn what stuff will yield a good profit.   Cap a trader and make some trade runs in a free ship.   Don't spend all your money on one run.  Keep some for a reserve.    You can do this alone but it works better if you build some trust and provide stuff for other players that are fighting and in need of material and/or resources.   You can find some mates to sail with, to provide your trade vessel with an escort, or help you fight the pirates or enemy.  

It would be a mistake to build more barriers to game play.  Rank restrictions would be a step backwards.  You can play for years and not get promoted higher than 2nd Lt.  It's still good fun.  There are so many great personalities here if you let them shine through.  

EDIT: Rather than restricting all of us low rank players from PvP perhaps it would be simpler for those who don't want to take a chance to use the PvE server to gain the competence in battles, and come back to the PvP server with the NA bug bites.

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Macjimm
Added content

[Teutonic]

I don't need finger pointing and it's best not to continue. Lets go on with what we as players can do for each other to help others who don't forum troll around here like we do.

So far it seems a Thunderdome area is the best option?

Lets go with Christendom and Bach's idea of stating 4-5 nations to be deemed "active" and the rest to be considered "dead." Does it suck? Sure, of course, but the population we have now just doesn't cut it.

Obvious 4 seem to be Pirate, US, Brits, French. 5th be Danes and the rest we write off as "dead nations." although they still have players and those players enjoy what they do, so be it.

where can us "big boys" go on the map to not be such oppressive shits to the rest of the noobs? Hispaniola? Cuba? dare i say the Gulf? Maybe we do need another Server meeting to hash it out.

My opinion on what needs to happen.

All players. clans, Nations must swear to abide by a few rules. Granted not everyone may follow, but if we get the majority of groups to abide by certain rules, all the better.

1. The "Voted Active Nations" must be allowed to take 1-2 regions (not including capital region) around their capital or a reasonable distance without harm from others. These Regions would be considered "sacred," in other words, other active nations shall NOT take these ports.

2. The "Voted Dead Nations" Are not to be harassed to death, if they have the pop and group to do so, they are allowed 1-2 regions as well. Active Nations DO NOT engage in offense RvR/PBs against the dead nation's "home regions." a good example of this currently is Sweden and the Dutch, they have been two "dead nations" that have ports and so far all parties have been trustworthy not to take ports from them.

3. Outside of the "Active Nations" home regions, RvR is allowed for all parties. Ow PvP is allowed at all places on the map

4. Nations and Clans from all sides agree on a few points on the map to become "Pressure Points." In other words, PvP, RvR, whatever is absolute free game AND players who wish to take part are to be told of these points on the map to go out and fight.

If All major parties form us all cannot come to some type of agreement like this, then I don't have hope for this server. Those who want to paint the map their color will do so and others will stop playing. Since all this RvR bullying shit happened Population has surely declined and that is definitely not at all what we all want.

It's not about getting an edge or hurting a group anymore, or starving folks of resources, or showing who's better at what. This is about keeping players wanting to play! We want players to lose ships and continue playing, not lose ships and quit. We are going the same road we did before the Wipe Patch, which was a dead server.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Teutonic

[Macjimm]

Just now, Teutonic said:

All players. clans, Nations must swear to abide by a few rules. Granted not everyone may follow, but if we get the majority of groups to abide by certain rules, all the better.

1. The "Voted Active Nations" must be allowed to take 1-2 regions (not including capital region) around their capital or a reasonable distance without harm from others. These Regions would be considered "sacred," in other words, other active nations shall NOT take these ports.

2. The "Voted Dead Nations" Are not to be harassed to death, if they have the pop and group to do so, they are allowed 1-2 regions as well. Active Nations DO NOT engage in offense RvR/PBs against the dead nation's "home regions." a good example of this currently is Sweden and the Dutch, they have been two "dead nations" that have ports and so far all parties have been trustworthy not to take ports from them.

3. Outside of the "Active Nations" home regions, RvR is allowed for all parties. Ow PvP is allowed at all places on the map

4. Nations and Clans from all sides agree on a few points on the map to become "Pressure Points." In other words, PvP, RvR, whatever is absolute free game AND players who wish to take part are to be told of these points on the map to go out and fight.

Cheers to you lad.  Stepping up and making an effort to build a better world.  

Can you suggest more specifics?  Where are the regions?  Who are the Active and Dead nations?  Where are the pressure points?  When will we decide?  When will this begin?

Edited August 10, 2017 by Macjimm
Spelink

[Skully]

High level players need to see profit in being ganked. This sounds utterly ridiculous, but it is the primary reason you won't see high level players engage one-another unless it is a sure win. Other than that it simply amounts to a loss.

XP or Gold doesn't really cut the cake as incentives. We did have an officer in the past onto which the game could easily toss XP because it was a temporal advantage.

On 7/16/2016 at 3:44 PM, Skully said:

Hence I said in that post, hand 1000 or 2000 officer XP to the captain who loses his officer.

That means the fastest way to level your officer is getting him killed.

The fastest way of losing a high ranking officer is getting him killed.

Ergo, perfect balance.

The same can be said for permanent upgrades, but they must be tuned to a low level or have significant trade-offs.

Or getting ganked means denying hostility buildup of the enemy.

And last but not least, the dreadful time sink needs to be abated.

Sailing the blue is nice for some folks and it certainly has a high strategical aspect, but it is a freaking annoying choir for me as "casual" player.

And I can do that after spending 1 month of daily playing, building a Lvl 2 shipyard and finally that Fir-Fir Surprise that  @Slamz desperately wants to see sailing towards him.
(Oh shit, it also needs Longs....)

 

[Duncan McFail]

58 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

The "Voted Active Nations" must be allowed to take 1-2 regions (not including capital region) around their capital or a reasonable distance without harm from others. These Regions would be considered "sacred," in other words, other active nations shall NOT take these ports.

Outside of the "Active Nations" home regions, RvR is allowed for all parties. Ow PvP is allowed at all places on the map

If All major parties form us all cannot come to some type of agreement like this, then I don't have hope for this server. Those who want to paint the map their color will do so and others will stop playing. Since all this RvR bullying shit happened Population has surely declined and that is definitely not at all what we all want.

It's not about getting an edge or hurting a group anymore, or starving folks of resources, or showing who's better at what. This is about keeping players wanting to play! We want players to lose ships and continue playing, not lose ships and quit. We are going the same road we did before the Wipe Patch, which was a dead server.

Although you say you speak not as French or BORK and that you don't want any finger pointing this is exactly what's happening. You told us yourself "RvR is dead and dots don't matter". Challenge accepted. Your nation had the balls to get together with other nations players and camp our nation capitol killing over a hundred players. Now you're doing the same to the Danes. But of course that can't result in poor server health. We have several hunting grounds that give players a chance to burn time pvping occassionally. You guys on the other hand setup shop for weeks at a time and kill everything that moves until nothing moves. Today you fielded an rvr force of 25. No problem with numbers today. Although I'm sure French population will drop soon. It will mostly be players using forged papers to get into a nation that has territory because dots do matter. So instead of a plea to the server for an agreement when your getting crapped on try to contact the guys you've wronged and try some diplomacy. Just fair warning though. You guys have burnt a lot of bridges and have little to offer.

[Vizzini]

Merge servers , remove outlaw battles , treat all nations the same. Put capitals an even distance away from other Nations , no region can be attacked for 2 weeks and try and make all nations viable at the start ( ie admin.... you help the players to spread into the lesser populated nations)

 

 

 

 

[Hethwill]

Is this one of those discussions that will end with a dog eat dog situation ?

There's no burning bridges, there's no faults, hell there's no nothing except a battle of trenches. Some sit in muddy holes, others wade across the mud. Some look at frontlines and see they control a map, others see there's a lot of combat force behind enemy lines. No side can ever win, will be eternal war until exhaustion or boredom So, stop acting like you own the game or server, all of you, because you don't. Pointing fingers and crying wolf doesn't help a single bit. 

Best updates were land in battles ( including in PBs ) and the 1 dura test, imo. Both transformed the game. All the rest is "expendable".

Think about this simple thing

- player made politics is good, is sandbox.

- player run economy is nice, but it lacks interaction with the system - notice board, issue 'missions', etc.

- player limiting others to access to "full" game is not. There's no dynamics in ranking ( or not ). A Rear Admiral can fill all in game when in truth he couldn't. A RA was expected specific station for his rank not act all brazen sailing the world in a pleasure Yacht while stealing poor fisherman,

 

Now... is this server related ? No. Plus it is a symptom, not a reason.

 

[admin]

First of all thank you all - you don't stop to amaze us with your dedication and support. We said long time ago we won't let you down and we won't. Promises will be fulfilled. Thank you for being critics and supporters. It helps us learn to make better games.

One thing what we want you to understand is this. Games are art/games are entertainment. Humans can get bored and humans can't read one book every day or watch the same movie every day. It is possible for some amazing entertainment product to deliver content every day but its very hard for indie teams to keep that pace. People move on to new entertainment and come back when you created something new and exciting. 

So try to be very honest about everything here.

Our current plan is to move to unity 5 (to add new ships) this is almost done. 
Then we will fix UI and add localization that will bring a lot of new players.
Current planned fixes will delay player loss on mid levels
On release we will get more visibility and new players will join the fray as well. 
NA Legends will probably launch to open beta (as a free game) and some players from there will also go try open world. 

But here is the thing. They will move on again. Online will go down again. In entertainment industry the success is determined by highest chart position not on lowest. 

So eventually everyone will leave to new games (ours included). And its ok. 

For us the key is to learn and use this learning to make better games going forward. Very rarely games are perfect from the first attempt. 
Even Battlegrounds (many of you probably tried it) is actually a 4th iteration of the idea. (first dayz mod, then arma mod, then H1Z1 KOK, only then PUBG (which is done by developers of TERA with years and years of mmo experience).

its a journey. 

[Barbancourt]

48 minutes ago, Duncan McFail said:

Today you fielded an rvr force of 25. No problem with numbers today.

That's because everybody thought there might be a big battle outside Roseau (not the port battle itself), which was the whole point, not because they wanted a place to haul coffee to/from. 

Anyhow, is there a reason why the entire capital region shouldn't be a safe zone?  You can't RvR it anyway.

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Barbancourt (rownd)

[Skully]

1 minute ago, The Red Duke said:

No side can ever win, will be eternal war until exhaustion or boredom

Have we identified the end-game?

[admin]

Just now, Skully said:

Have we identified the end-game?

imagine being a frigate captain during peace time

[Hethwill]

Just now, Skully said:

Have we identified the end-game?

Define winning conditions, correctly and in line with the period being interpreted, and maybe a "map win" can be a gateway.

[King of Crowns]

7 minutes ago, admin said:

First of all thank you all - you don't stop amazing us about your dedication and support. We said long time ago we won't let you down and we won't. Promises will be fulfilled. Thank you for being critics and supporters. It helps us learn to make better games.

One thing what we want you to understand is this. Games are art/games are entertainment. Humans can get bored and humans can't read one book every day or watch the same movie every day. It is possible for some amazing entertainment product to deliver content every day but its very hard for indie teams to keep that pace. People move on to new entertainment and come back when you created something new and exciting. 

So try to be very honest about everything here.

Our current plan is to move to unity 5 (to add new ships) this is almost done. 
Then we will fix UI and add localization that will bring a lot of new players.
Current planned fixes will delay player loss on mid levels
On release we will get more visibility and new players will join the fray as well. 
NA Legends will probably launch to open beta (as a free game) and some players from there will also go try open world. 

But here is the thing. They will move on again. And its ok. 

For us the key is to learn and use this learning to make better games going forward. Very rarely games are perfect from the first attempt. 
Even Battlegrounds (many of you probably tried it) is actually a 4th iteration of the idea. (first dayz mod, then arma mod, then H1Z1 KOK, only then PUBG (which is done by developers of TERA with years and years of mmo experience).

its a journey. 

this tells me that your okay with the death of global server. with no potential merge in sight. perhaps your team should come up with a minimum amount of players that are required to sustain a server,and once the server drops below that point you merge it. at this point you can keep the eu pb timers everyone but one clan on global has decided that RVR isn't worth it. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by King of Crowns

[Skully]

13 minutes ago, admin said:

imagine being a frigate captain during peace time

Currently we fight a war of attrition and this is bad for the game.

I'm just coming back from my mission to impersonate an alt at Fort-Royal. And as you can see this could have turned ugly. 

(where did chat log go?)

And Derj, a true casual player, had some astute remarks. There is no place to "hide" when your capital is overrun except as Pirate or Brit.

He has the rank and the knowledge to overcome the current situation, but no longer the wealth.

He needs peace to be able to recoup.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Skully