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Koltes

Grinding some ports is beyond stupid

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6 minutes ago, admin said:

when there is no more regions and all ports are individual the problem solves itself. just patrol the area around the port

That is the thing that folks liked about the flag system, it told you where to be and you had a set time to get there and stop them.  Maybe combine it so that when you pull a mission it lets every one know a hostility mission/Flag has been pulled for that port.  You can either show up and stop them by PvP or through stopping them in the missions.    The announcement keeps from from doing ninja flipping by hitting a bunch of them at the same time and not leaving until they are all done.   If the missions are announced and stay open than you can show up and stop them while in the fight.  

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why not just limit the amount of flags that can be active (edit: at the same time) against one nation / by one nation? Or maybe add some sort of cooldown, when pull a flag you cannot pull another one for X minutes / hours.

Edited by Daniboy3000

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Some pseudo nation like the Pirates, have an advantage in this AI grind against them.  If they really care to deny a region they can kill their own AI fleets and prevent people from grinding them.   No other nation can do that.   

 

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5 hours ago, admin said:

unless we find how to remove griefing from flag purchases new ports system missions will come back for hostilities
they will be open for some good time for entry and will only spawn around the port that you are raising hostility. It will provide good options both for attack and defense and will be very easy to tune (without ruining OW bot distribution)

for example -
small ports hostility mission will always spawn 10 light ships
4th rate ports will always spawn 10 frigates
line ships ports will always spawn 10 first rates


 

What about mini PBs to win the hostility. Pull a flag, plant it at a port, one hour later a 10v10 pb starts. Winner increases or decreases hostility. 

To trigger a pb for the region you have to win 4 pbs in 24 or 48 hours. 

Drives players to fix locations for pvp, no need to wait around for that one AI fleet, devs get to implement a kick ass mechanic, plays are happy . Win win win win

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52 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Some pseudo nation like the Pirates, have an advantage in this AI grind against them.  If they really care to deny a region they can kill their own AI fleets and prevent people from grinding them.   No other nation can do that.   

 

Kinda like how they can attack each other to hide from screening! 

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1 hour ago, Hodo said:

Some pseudo nation like the Pirates, have an advantage in this AI grind against them.  If they really care to deny a region they can kill their own AI fleets and prevent people from grinding them.   No other nation can do that.   

 

No one does this cause you get zero from Pirate vs PIrate.  We don't want to stop you from flipping ports.  We want the port battles so why stop you.  What we do stop from happening when we can is two at the same time.   Really man the problem about fleets is not Pirates it's the number of ships the devs have on the open world for each nation in respect to what else is out there.  Before the patch there was tons of ships on the OW, now it's like a 1/10th of the fleets as before.  We are having the same problems as ya'll are and no we don't kill pirate fleets so you can find any. 

As for defenses though you can kill any fleet no matter the nation in your region to lower the hostility.  Though here is something we tried and found out.  Pirate fleets won't count.  Pirate vs Pirate battles creates no hostility along with giving you zero rewards.

Now what we do do and it was even mention on the L2TK is we recycle a fleet over and over keeping the lead ship alive.  We go in demast it and sink the others fast as we can.   By using all first rates it takes just one or two broad side to sink most of the ships in those fleets.  The times we had fast flips is cause we found a good fleet to cycle over and over, other times it has taken us up to 5 hours or more to flip and ends in a bad port time.  Though we can still show up and do them as our clan is made up of players from all over the world.  Though mostly US and Aussie players make up most of the numbers.

28 minutes ago, Daguse said:

Kinda like how they can attack each other to hide from screening! 

You mean just like how one national can tag a friendly other national and sit in there battles too, but instead it doesn't stay open and the battle marker hides until they want to jump out and attack some one using super invisible warp speed?   

This been used a lot by french around Mort along with US and GB players.  

Though we haven't used a battle to hide from screeners since the BR system was patched and Battle Fleet group was put in game.  We have rolled right up to ever port battle some even being defenses as one big battle fleet.

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39 minutes ago, Daguse said:

What about mini PBs to win the hostility. Pull a flag, plant it at a port, one hour later a 10v10 pb starts. Winner increases or decreases hostility. 

To trigger a pb for the region you have to win 4 pbs in 24 or 48 hours. 

Drives players to fix locations for pvp, no need to wait around for that one AI fleet, devs get to implement a kick ass mechanic, plays are happy . Win win win win

This is what many have brought up for raids.  12 man raids would work great and could use something like a one circle cap the circle style port battle that just needs kill all ships are control points of the circle for the duration of the battle.  Winner gets 20-25% hostility gained or lost depending on the side.  Enough of them will flip the port.  Make them only the regions none capital ports and none of the are SOL ports (only capitals should have this and only a few).

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Yup, grinding sucks and now you can see why grinding ports back and forth against off hour players isn't ideal (and why France isn't even bothering on global).  The solution is a system that drags out region flips.  Flipping can be done quickly with war supplies or slowly through lots of waiting and grinding.  There just needs to be a better way.  That's why I purposed the "patrol" button to passively raise/lower contention.  

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1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

You mean just like how one national can tag a friendly other national and sit in there battles too, but instead it doesn't stay open and the battle marker hides until they want to jump out and attack some one using super invisible warp speed?   

This been used a lot by french around Mort along with US and GB players.  

Though we haven't used a battle to hide from screeners since the BR system was patched and Battle Fleet group was put in game.  We have rolled right up to ever port battle some even being defenses as one big battle fleet.

I fail to see how your nation can't abuse this issue as well? 

Just remember Sir Texas, it can be very hard to rebuild a reputation. You all openly abused a mechanic of the game... And im pretty sure you are still abusing some. In my eyes and many others, you are going to have to work very hard to fix that.

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1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

This is what many have brought up for raids.  12 man raids would work great and could use something like a one circle cap the circle style port battle that just needs kill all ships are control points of the circle for the duration of the battle.  Winner gets 20-25% hostility gained or lost depending on the side.  Enough of them will flip the port.  Make them only the regions none capital ports and none of the are SOL ports (only capitals should have this and only a few).

Yep, 100% agree, that was the intent of the post. My hope is if we say it enough, the all mighty devs may allow us to test it. 

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4 hours ago, Daguse said:

I fail to see how your nation can't abuse this issue as well? 

Just remember Sir Texas, it can be very hard to rebuild a reputation. You all openly abused a mechanic of the game... And im pretty sure you are still abusing some. In my eyes and many others, you are going to have to work very hard to fix that.

Just cause some can do it doesn't mean they are.  The ones we are seeing doing it constantly aren't currently the pirates so get off your high horse man.  Just about every nation has a group that will do anything to win.   

Oh and stop saying I abused something. I was not in the one battle that was tribunal.  I actually was in another battle where the screeners separated me. In my eyes using the crappy ships to separate us was just as much an abuse of bad mechanics.  Notice once that had been fix no one has dared to try to screen our fleets.  You couldn't beat us in side with us under man and you haven't beat us out side.   Stop using the excuse about mechanics cause both sides where using bad mechanics to try to win.   

The one thing Pirates have done is moved on and adapted to new battle mechanics in game.  The one things the nationals can't do is move on.  Want to know why ya'll loose?  Cause you give up at a flip of a coin.   US lost one port and cried they been one ported.  Brits couldn't use there numbers any more to screen out a stronger fighting force but much smaller numbers so they stopped showing up.  The carebears that got free marks had to actually fight and they stopped showing up.  I think it's funny back when ya'll had empty ports to take you had over 70 players fighting over who will get into the port and get the conquest marks from that port.

Now for bad mechanics many of ya'll are now seeing that the port flipping is screwed up and it's not something we do in an hour.  We actually do get it done faster than most others cause we show up with around a dozen first rates even if it's a 4th rate regions and split up into smaller groups and kill every ship in the region.  We don't sit in front of the capital port of the region.  We go and sit in front of every port of the region and kill anything that moves of that nation.  If they are big fleets we save the lead ship (most the time worth more points than the others).  We also learned that they respawn after an hour or so so if you kill them you will see them again in an hour.  The average it takes us to flip a region is about 2-5 hours.  Though this is used to level up our ship knowledge on our ships too.  Something we prob have a sleeve up on other nationals.  Most our first rates are unlocked 1-3 slots with some having all them unlocked.  Most our 4th rates are at 3-5 slots unlocked.  Pretty much all us unlocked the Heavy Rattler in one night to 3-5 slots (I was the only one in clan to own one before West End was flipped and I had a 4 slot open for the port battle.)   

You want to know how you stop us from taking a port.  Bring out your good ships/enough BR to pull our full fleet into a battle out side.  We will be more than happy to skip the PB and have a fight of 25 vs 25 ships out side.   Though if you can't even bring the proper ships to fight in the PB even though ya'll have numbers than your not going to bring the proper ships to screen a full battle fleet out side a port.  Until ya'll can do this your not going to win.   Well not until you can get your heads out of your arse and get organized.  Ya'll should of had George Town just by BR and numbers.  We actually had expected to loose that fight when it started and GB joined.  I heard some one said French was there to screen....guess what no they weren't and how do you screen a defense port battle when we are all ready in the port?   We don't use screeners cause we don't have the numbers to fill the Port Battle and screen to, not to mention we want the fight so we want you to get into the port battle.

Now that RvR is pretty much dead what are ya'll going to do when we switch to PvP mode and camp every region you still own like the french have been camping our capital.  Which has pretty much died down lately  So apparently our taking there ports has been effective and the other thing is we have time on our hand, we don't have to rush out and fight them on there terms.  We fight fights on our terms.   

But hay when SC comes out we will prob move onto that game and ya'll can have your carebear serve, cause that is what PvP2/GLOBAL honestly is.   

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1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Just cause some can do it doesn't mean they are.  The ones we are seeing doing it constantly aren't currently the pirates so get off your high horse man.  Just about every nation has a group that will do anything to win.   

Oh and stop saying I abused something. I was not in the one battle that was tribunal.  I actually was in another battle where the screeners separated me. In my eyes using the crappy ships to separate us was just as much an abuse of bad mechanics.  Notice once that had been fix no one has dared to try to screen our fleets.  You couldn't beat us in side with us under man and you haven't beat us out side.   Stop using the excuse about mechanics cause both sides where using bad mechanics to try to win.   

I got this far and stopped reading, this is just excuses for bad behavior. First off I never specifically said you cheated/exploiting, however, unless I'm mistaken, you are part of BLACK. Black has openly been caught exploiting mechanics to circumvent other players performing appropriate game tactics. You even admit to this, so why am I suppose to believe that you are not currently exploiting some mechanic.

7 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Though we haven't used a battle to hide from screeners since the BR system was patched and Battle Fleet group was put in game

Now, as far as you feeling that not taking my best ship to screen out a PB for another nation is an exploiting, well sorry you feel that way. But just sound game play. 

1. The majority of the screeners, VCO and TF has just moved half way across the map and it cost us days of econ/pvp, lots of coin, and several ships. Most of us only had 1 "non-trash" ship available and that was our only PB ready ship. Most players don't risk the only PB ship defending another nation's PB. 

2. It was a LONG ASS sail, and we just didn't have the time to sail up an aggie or other premium wood ship.

3.Your clan mates should have just stayed closer together, you all had full control over the situation and could counter this tactic. Hence it's not really an exploit. 

You are right about both/all sides use bad mechanics/exploits to try to win, however, the difference is you are defending it. Look at what happens when games have exploits and cheating run wild... look at N1H1, it just about died out due to cheating. You are actively making the chose to support and or use exploits that will hurt the game, and to what end? So you can win a few pixels, at the potential cost of driving away players. SHAME!!

hqdefault.jpg

Edited by Daguse

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15 hours ago, Skully said:

I would rather steer players towards PvP fights, but I can't find a solution for folks not wanting to engage for 2 hours (/ 1 timeslot).

Don't steer them towards PvP fights -- just steer them towards being in the open world. PvP will happen naturally if players are out there and can find each other.

This is the fundamental problem I think we have been trying to solve for the last 2 years: how to get people on the open world (without them overly complaining about it and calling it a "grind" to be on the open world at all.)


The problem with contention grinds seems to be the one-sided nature of it. Defenders who are confident in their PB skills can simply ignore the grind and show up to the port battle.

This is another reason I frown on the "port battle" in general.

No matter how involved we make the contention generation scheme, defenders can simply ignore it and just do the port battle.

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5 hours ago, Daguse said:

I got this far and stopped reading, this is just excuses for bad behavior. First off I never specifically said you cheated/exploiting, however, unless I'm mistaken, you are part of BLACK. Black has openly been caught exploiting mechanics to circumvent other players performing appropriate game tactics. You even admit to this, so why am I suppose to believe that you are not currently exploiting some mechanic.

Now, as far as you feeling that not taking my best ship to screen out a PB for another nation is an exploiting, well sorry you feel that way. But just sound game play. Never said you where exploiting, just said it's a bad Tag BR mechanic that is now fixed with Fleet Groups.  Are you feeling a bit guilty since you just called it an exploit yourself?

1. The majority of the screeners, VCO and TF has just moved half way across the map and it cost us days of econ/pvp, lots of coin, and several ships. Most of us only had 1 "non-trash" ship available and that was our only PB ready ship. Most players don't risk the only PB ship defending another nation's PB. Of course you risk them in the PB, but if you can't bring a proper screening fleet than you fight it out 25 vs 25 in the port and best man wins.  Or Bring a fleet of pretty much all Aggy's and still loose to a mixed fleet of rat tag ships like George Town.  Ya'll even out number us.  Using the excuse that it was training was BS.   That was the first time it was pretty much all VCO and TF and we smashed ya'll.  I'm starting to think ya'll aren't excatly the PvP/RvR kings ya'll made your self all out to do before the patch and right when you hit the server.  I have yet to see ya'll actually win a proper engagement in PB or OW.  I give more respect to the french as they don't keep making up excuses they just keep it to OW fighting and kills.

2. It was a LONG ASS sail, and we just didn't have the time to sail up an aggie or other premium wood ship. GT you had 2 Mort Brigs 22 Aggty's and one Wappen what was your excuse there?

3.Your clan mates should have just stayed closer together, you all had full control over the situation and could counter this tactic. Hence it's not really an exploit.  We where balled up tighter than a virgin on her prom night, the bad mechanics have been fixed so now you can't pick guys on edge of the fleets no matter how balled up.   Come test it out if you dare, we know it worked with the French and ya'll as they where able to pull most of your fleets after a port battle.   Maybe that is why ya'll won't do it.

You are right about both/all sides use bad mechanics/exploits to try to win, however, the difference is you are defending it. Look at what happens when games have exploits and cheating run wild... look at N1H1, it just about died out due to cheating. You are actively making the chose to support and or use exploits that will hurt the game, and to what end? So you can win a few pixels, at the potential cost of driving away players. SHAME!! I'm not defending anything, in fact since the BR tags have been fixed with the fleet battles groups we have not tagged one fleet to hide in until the battle is ready.  Now certain other nations on the other hands are using this all the time for OW battles and I have heard some pirates too so it's a new meta to use a fleet no matter how you got into battle and us the warp/invisibility to get into a fight of some one that is tagged.  I haven't done this with any group, but heard some pirates have.   So again get off your high mighty soap box.  

hqdefault.jpg

Maybe you should learn the game rules and mechanics before you start pointing fingers.  We have not been found of anything.

Ink's own words just to remind you.=

Edited by Sir Texas Sir
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9 hours ago, Hodo said:

Some pseudo nation like the Pirates, have an advantage in this AI grind against them.  If they really care to deny a region they can kill their own AI fleets and prevent people from grinding them.   No other nation can do that.

Pseudo nation? Do you really have to tell yourself these kind of things to help substantiate so many defeats? Do you see us out there tagging our own AI to keep you from grinding?  Nope. We let you grind it up and show up for the port battle without screening even. You keep saying how being able to attack your own nation is a bonus. I'd love to see the Brits or US with the same mechanics. You wouldn't last a week before crying to get rid of it.

50 minutes ago, Daguse said:

Now, as far as you feeling that not taking my best ship to screen out a PB for another nation is an exploiting, well sorry you feel that way. But just sound game play. 

Your clan mates should have just stayed closer together, you all had full control over the situation and could counter this tactic. Hence it's not really an exploit. 

You are right about both/all sides use bad mechanics/exploits to try to win, however, the difference is you are defending it. Look at what happens when games have exploits and cheating run wild... look at N1H1, it just about died out due to cheating. You are actively making the chose to support and or use exploits that will hurt the game, and to what end? So you can win a few pixels, at the potential cost of driving away players. SHAME!!

So using small fast ships to intercept a group heading to a port battle with the sole intent of tagging them into battle but not actually fight them is legit? But that port battle group entering into a battle with the sole purpose of staying in the battle not to be harassed outside is an exploit? And your reasoning is that it is sound game play. You defend this griefing, say it's not an exploit, and accuse my clanmate that the difference between your views and his is he is defending his counter tactic to yours. As I see it if the devs think something is an exploit then they'd fix it. They did change the tagging mechanics, add in battle groups, and changed the BR to a curve to help get rid of the griefing. What have they done to get rid of sitting in a battle? Oh right, nothing. It's amazing that they worked to help the side being griefed and being forced to hide in battles for an hour+ of their game time rather than the griefers that want to hold players in battle without any intentions of fighting them and without risking their ships. Please keep the hatred flowing though. It only makes us stronger.

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9 minutes ago, Duncan McFail said:

Pseudo nation? Do you really have to tell yourself these kind of things to help substantiate so many defeats? Do you see us out there tagging our own AI to keep you from grinding?  Nope. We let you grind it up and show up for the port battle without screening even. You keep saying how being able to attack your own nation is a bonus. I'd love to see the Brits or US with the same mechanics. You wouldn't last a week before crying to get rid of it.

So using small fast ships to intercept a group heading to a port battle with the sole intent of tagging them into battle but not actually fight them is legit? But that port battle group entering into a battle with the sole purpose of staying in the battle not to be harassed outside is an exploit? And your reasoning is that it is sound game play. You defend this griefing, say it's not an exploit, and accuse my clanmate that the difference between your views and his is he is defending his counter tactic to yours. As I see it if the devs think something is an exploit then they'd fix it. They did change the tagging mechanics, add in battle groups, and changed the BR to a curve to help get rid of the griefing. What have they done to get rid of sitting in a battle? Oh right, nothing. It's amazing that they worked to help the side being griefed and being forced to hide in battles for an hour+ of their game time rather than the griefers that want to hold players in battle without any intentions of fighting them and without risking their ships. Please keep the hatred flowing though. It only makes us stronger.

looks like a lot of assumptions, but in no way do I condoned tagging with the intent to not fight. We do however some times take shit ships with the intent of just taking out a few PB ships. You all however do, look at the post Sir Texas posted. 

So I got a question, do you think sitting in battle is fun? do you think it is fair to both side? If not, then it is only hurting the game. As well only pirates can attack each other to sit in battle. So a bit of an exploit. The fact that you don't understand this shows you don't care about anything other than the W. 

The fact that the devs removed logging off under flags and removed the TP to capitals, it shows they want us to fight and not hide like little girls. 

But you all care more about the W then helping improve the game, so I'm done wasting my time. 

 

Edited by Daguse

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4 minutes ago, Daguse said:

looks like a lot of assumptions, but in no way do I condoned tagging with the intent to not fight. We do however some times take shit ships with the intent of just taking out a few PB ships. You all however do, look at the post Sir Texas posted. 

As a prime example. Port Au Prince on the first run. There were 75 screeners according to Jeheil. Out of several battles the only ones that were fought were ones where Brits outnumbered pirates heavily. Our group was tagged in 3 times by Brits that immediately ran. You might say you don't condone this, but it is what happens and what forces us to find game mechanics to avoid it. But since the devs have fixed it all you have to do is show up in bigger ships, spawn in closer to us, and actually fight us. But you haven't done that. I wonder why?

So I got a question, do you think sitting in battle is fun? do you think it is fair to both side? If not, then it is only hurting the game. As well only pirates can attack each other to sit in battle. So a bit of an exploit. The fact that you don't understand this shows you don't care about anything other than the W. 

Sitting in battle isn't fun, but if it helps us to make it to the game content instead of being griefed for hours then it's worth it. Before Savannah port battle there was easily 30 US sitting outside of the port battle. They had 3 minutes to enter the battle and chose not to. Outlaw battles are open for an hour. Plenty of time to come in to both if you're prepared. And if the other side doesn't have the commitment to show up early enough to stop us or the balls to enter a battle they might lose there ship in then they deserve to lose that port. 

The fact that the devs removed logging off under flags and removed the TP to capitals, it shows they want us to fight and not hide like little girls. 

I'm not sure what logging off under flags is and what tp to capital has to do with staying in battles. I'm pretty sure the side that has to use screeners to avoid a port battle all together is the side wearing skirts with matching heels;)

 

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3 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Now that RvR is pretty much dead what are ya'll going to do when we switch to PvP mode and camp every region you still own like the french have been camping our capital.  Which has pretty much died down lately  So apparently our taking there ports has been effective and the other thing is we have time on our hand, we don't have to rush out and fight them on there terms.  We fight fights on our terms.   

We'll be back soon...  We're just spanking the Danes around for a bit.  When you guys ran away up North, it got too quiet at Morti for us..  

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Since we are rehashing the Global SLM event here:

The Savanna la Mar FFA and Port-au-Prince screening battles were instantiated without intent to fight. Hence I personally consider them all to be bad etiquette. 

Hence I agree with @koltes that tagging without fighting should be punished, but I do not agree with the means yet.

But that is a discussion for http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/22138-invisibility-speed-revenge-fleet-sorted-immunity-for-gankers/

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20 hours ago, koltes said:

- Hostility missions NEVER close;

The counter grind will, by definition, be a revenge fleet.

No need to join the hostility mission.

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20 hours ago, admin said:

unless we find how to remove griefing from flag purchases new ports system missions will come back for hostilities
they will be open for some good time for entry and will only spawn around the port that you are raising hostility. It will provide good options both for attack and defense and will be very easy to tune (without ruining OW bot distribution)

for example -
small ports hostility mission will always spawn 10 light ships
4th rate ports will always spawn 10 frigates
line ships ports will always spawn 10 first rates


 

if your going to do this then leave the battle open for the full 1 1/2 hour. if the point is to generate pvp.

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4 hours ago, Slamz said:

Don't steer them towards PvP fights -- just steer them towards being in the open world. PvP will happen naturally if players are out there and can find each other.

True, if they want to engage. If not, then one side will see 2 hours of nothing or PvE.

I think that we can all agree that PvP trumps anything.

Any form of PvE will feel like an empty placeholder.

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2 hours ago, King of Crowns said:

if your going to do this then leave the battle open for the full 1 1/2 hour. if the point is to generate pvp.

All battles should be open for the full duration. And hostility missions should be open the same as any mission, OW battle, or epic event. 

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On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 7:12 AM, admin said:

unless we find how to remove griefing from flag purchases new ports system missions will come back for hostilities

for example -
small ports hostility mission will always spawn 10 light ships
4th rate ports will always spawn 10 frigates
line ships ports will always spawn 10 first rates


 

Here is part of the problem right here. I am not sure you guys are getting that your spawning mechanics simply do not support your contention mechanics. Putting aside that just killing AI fleets is some what flawed at least if you are going to have it put spawning mechanics in place that make sense.

Other than shallow water ports or capitols there is simply no reason to have Lynx/Pickle/Brig fleets. I should never see Pickles in a Frigate fleet or 1st rate AI fleet. It is a waste of BR and they simply don't bring anything to the fight.

Regional 4th rate ports should all have 700 to 1200 BR Frig fleets with nothing but 5th and 4th rates. There is simply no use for BR AI fleets lower than 500 to even exist (other than shallow water) in the open world other than to just having something to look at.

Your players aren't sailing Brigs and Privateers to grind contention on the other side of the world. Quite frankly this goes for open world grinding in general. Your entire fleet generation mechanic simply builds too small of fleet make-up.

Your AI fleets needs to be upgraded even if you change the PB contention mechanics.

 

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16 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Now that RvR is pretty much dead what are ya'll going to do when we switch to PvP mode and camp every region you still own

Pffft.

Here's how I see that working:

BLACK rolls up and hides in a battle with all their 1st rates. They sail around outside with a Surprise or two in some totally obvious location and manner, intending to jump out and warp-speed crash down on any PvPer who comes to fight them in a 20v1. They are surprised when nobody takes the bait and we keep sinking other people somewhere else instead. BLACK declares the game is dead and never comes back.

The idea of actually sailing around engaging in normal, effective, mobile, WYSIWYG PvP never occurs to them because they can't play without some kind of crutch to lean on. ("You are without a doubt the worst pirate I've ever heard of.")

tl;dr: I double dog dare you.

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