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Preliminary discussion of the changes to conquest - clan wars are coming


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15 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

I don't think that's a bad economy. It generates money rather than just redistributing it. It generates trading that doesn't rely on labor hours. The question is: Is it profitable enough to that instead of just doing missions? Is it too easily available without risk in the slow hours? How many trips do you need to afford losing everything once?

 

It is a bad economy if riskless trade brings the same amount of profit than risky trade. Why should I risk to sail to La Orchila to buy Dutch trade goods, when I can flood the Swedish capital with French trade goods from La Desirade?

I can do a risk-free trade run from La Desirade with some friends, 6 Indiamen and some frigates as guards, built a battlegroup, nobody can tag us. Gives millions of profits.

Of course, missions are profitable as well. Or crafting can be profitable as well. Usually players do a mixture of everything, wich is okay. But the amount of time needed to fund PVP is rediculous. This is the real time sink.

If I waste two hours chasing others in OW PVP, I am dissapointed, but that is okay. If I have to waste two hours for trading/missions to replace my losses from PVP, I am deeply annoyed. That is the difference here.

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Hello Captains. We would like to share some information on the potential changes to conquest.  Current Problems New player experience is uneven and heavily depends on the nation you join.

current system does not work. If player joins spain on PVP Global he leaves like in 1-2 days. Because he sees that he can never win. Basic game design rule - if perceived chance to win the game is 0 t

another statement on the wipe There will be no wipe. only map reset. In fact there might be no wipes any more even on release. But its not a promise. 

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qw you can be sure there's at least one to my knowledge that does it. 4 Indiamans per player in a non stop lane, back and forth.

might be the exceptional case, but it exists.

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1 minute ago, The Red Duke said:

qw you can be sure there's at least one to my knowledge that does it. 4 Indiamans per player in a non stop lane, back and forth.

might be the exceptional case, but it exists.

42 indiamana = 200*42=8400 BR. Who can attack this battle group?

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When I started playing this good game at the beginning of last year you could sail round in national waters and be gank without doing too much harm because you knew that there would be help from the rest that nation people had time to come and Help one when the struggles were open for a long time and everyone came in all sizes of ships you came in everything from a snow to a bellona it gave some very big and flexible matches but today people can not get into the fight and help and Those who may be able to reach it on time will not always do so because it has become too expensive to build ships it takes too many hours to grind missions to get enough marks to buy blueprints and permits victory marks is, in my opinion, far too expensive in combat marks.

Besides this, I am very worried when I hear that you will do the fact that the Swedish and Danish capital are the only ones that can take over. I fear that this will mean the end of our 2 nations, as it will make it very difficult to get new people Play for the 2 nations

In addition to this, I thought it's a really good game and I'm looking forward to having to hit several ports and not entire regions as this will give far more portbattles and I hope you will make it a little easier to get ships Again, I think this will promote PvP

With the deepest respect and devotion tm2804

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23 minutes ago, qw569 said:

42 indiamana = 200*42=8400 BR. Who can attack this battle group?

Ah, you assume they go in battle group :) Actually they don't, the ones I know, from what I seen. They go piece meal intervals during a couple hours until they dry all buy and sell in the area. 

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Sooooo Clan wars are coming ??? or Something similar ? Or classic bait and switch ? Looking forward to possible war companies but until some definite info appears .... I'm not holding my breath

 

Needs to be something new and exciting, summer holidays might not  be helping with a lull. New players trying a new game with nobody playing won't stick around long and won't leave a good review. I left a good honest review in my first two weeks. Please don't expect a good  review for NA Legends, it wasn't what I paid for. If I wanted lobby based games there are far more polished games out there

 

Most of us here love the game, we want it to succeed butoo many changes alienate your player base and nobody joins a game with nothing to do, no guide , no manual and seeing nothing on the horizon that resembles what they purchased

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1 hour ago, shaeberle84 said:

It is a bad economy if riskless trade brings the same amount of profit than risky trade. Why should I risk to sail to La Orchila to buy Dutch trade goods, when I can flood the Swedish capital with French trade goods from La Desirade?

I can do a risk-free trade run from La Desirade with some friends, 6 Indiamen and some frigates as guards, built a battlegroup, nobody can tag us. Gives millions of profits.

Of course, missions are profitable as well. Or crafting can be profitable as well. Usually players do a mixture of everything, wich is okay. But the amount of time needed to fund PVP is rediculous. This is the real time sink.

If I waste two hours chasing others in OW PVP, I am dissapointed, but that is okay. If I have to waste two hours for trading/missions to replace my losses from PVP, I am deeply annoyed. That is the difference here.

I don't see it. I'm at LD right now with a shop price list of Gustavia to cross check.


Fine Fabrics is 100g per unit, weighs 15t, so 7g per ton. That's 28k profit for a full indiaman.

Sevres is 41k, buys for 22k, you can fit  9 in an indiaman, that's a 171k profit per indiaman

Normandy Cider is 107g per unit, 9.6t per unit so 11g per ton. 44k per indiaman.
Languedoc Violins aren't listed in the Gustavia shop, supposedly sells for 5.3k, so 2600 per unit, 43g per ton, 173k per indiaman.
Parisian Furniture - only 1 available, so there's that, buy for 159k, sell for 379k, 220k profit for a 1000t item - 220g per ton.

For that, you sail empty to Les Des for 45 minutes, (because they pay less for Swedish goods than you buy them for in Gustavia, which I have to say is a really *bad* part of the economy, and then you sail back for an hour (your ships are slower now) This is really only worth it if you bring multiple indiamen for this trip, and therefore cripple your account on captain perks.

If you want to make millions of profit, that's at least 8 indiaman you need to fill. And then you spread that across how many players? How much money and combat marks and experience can you make in that time if you just shoot 4th rate fleet missions instead.

reminds me a lot of Elite Dangerous trading. Because the limit is not the quantity of goods available, all that matters is the size of your cargo hold, and trading before a Type 7 or Imperial Clipper is just a huge waste of time. It seems slightly  better simply because of the limit on Parisian Furniture.  Frontier, take notes. lol

Edited by Quineloe
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Suggestion for Port Battles.

A year or so ago, before the county changes and major PB system changes, we had flags which although exploited were a fun system that provided a lot of pvp and screening opportunities making the battle enjoyable for many.  The abuses of the system were numerous and well documented driving the changes.

As we enter this new system I propose a combination of flags and conquest.

Here goes;

Use the current conquest system to grind contention to 100%.

At that point, in 22 hours (as it is today) for a window of two hours a flag can be pulled from any national port of the attacker.  However, unlike the previous version, the flag can ONLY be pulled by someone in the top 10 in contention points.  Meaning that the individual pulling the flag had to participate, and not in some minor fashion, in the contention grinding.

The individual who pulls the flag is then designated as the Fleet Commander for the PB and that individual designates (after the flag has been planted) which Captains can enter the Port Battle beyond those with the minimum amount of Contention points (ie, those who would have to wait the two minutes).  This identification system achieves the goal of rewarding those who grind contention but also eliminates ALTS from attending the PB unless they are "invited" to attend by the Fleet Commander.

Just a barebones concept but enough to get feedback and thoughts.

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14 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

reminds me a lot of Elite Dangerous trading

very very just. except the entire effect it has on the systems, local faction influence and reputation, other than your pocket :) and having AI security and pirates actually providing a interesting threat, if not real at times. plus nothing like running the gauntlet smuggling arms in a conflict area.

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10 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

I don't see it. I'm at LD right now with a shop price list of Gustavia to cross check.


Fine Fabrics is 100g per unit, weighs 15t, so 7g per ton. That's 28k profit for a full indiaman.

Sevres is 41k, buys for 22k, you can fit  9 in an indiaman, that's a 171k profit per indiaman

Normandy Cider is 107g per unit, 9.6t per unit so 11g per ton. 44k per indiaman.
Languedoc Violins aren't listed in the Gustavia shop, supposedly sells for 5.3k, so 2600 per unit, 43g per ton, 173k per indiaman.
Parisian Furniture - only 1 available, so there's that, buy for 159k, sell for 379k, 220k profit for a 1000t item - 220g per ton.

For that, you sail empty to Les Des for 45 minutes, (because they pay less for Swedish goods than you buy them for in Gustavia, which I have to say is a really *bad* part of the economy, and then you sail back for an hour (your ships are slower now) This is really only worth it if you bring multiple indiamen for this trip, and therefore cripple your account on captain perks.

If you want to make millions of profit, that's at least 8 indiaman you need to fill. And then you spread that across how many players? How much money and combat marks and experience can you make in that time if you just shoot 4th rate fleet missions instead.

reminds me a lot of Elite Dangerous trading. Because the limit is not the quantity of goods available, all that matters is the size of your cargo hold, and trading before a Type 7 or Imperial Clipper is just a huge waste of time. It seems slightly  better simply because of the limit on Parisian Furniture.  Frontier, take notes. lol

I get your point.

Thing is that (1) yes there are guys that have multiple indiamans.

(2) you can do this while being more or less AFK, so reading a book, watching a TV series or whatever. You cannot do this while grinding missions.

(3) There are of course even more profitable ways of making money through trade, which however involve crafting (e.g. selling muskets to NPCs). As Labour Hours are restricted, I do not want to include these ways into my argumentation.

(4) Your point even enhances my point that fixed prices are bad. Why should you be able to constantly make more profits selling Parisian Furniture? Why should be price in Gustavia not change if everyone delivers Parisian Furniture, but noone delivers Fine Fabics or Normandy Cider?

So the point is not about the amount of money you can make, but (1) that you can make it quite riskless if you are clever and (2) that the economy does not work well with fixed prices and fixed supply and demand for everything except the player-based ressources.

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52 minutes ago, shaeberle84 said:

But the amount of time needed to fund PVP is rediculous. This is the real time sink.

If I waste two hours chasing others in OW PVP, I am dissapointed, but that is okay. If I have to waste two hours for trading/missions to replace my losses from PVP, I am deeply annoyed. That is the difference here.

(not directed towards shae:)

I think this is the most common reason we bleed players.

Many of you here love the economy, the depth, the meaning of it all, the thrill of risking loss. I know and respect that it is your raison d'être.

It puzzles me, though, that you expect OW PvP to PvE ratios to be better than in EVE.

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4 hours ago, Armored_Sheep said:

IMHO placing start location at national capital big trading and shipbuilding center is not helping to populate game with new players. New players have to first get used to the game, grind ranks and explore the game content. If one cannot rank up and learn on PvE server and than migrate on PvP server, there has to be separated protected areas. Players should be able to understand where to sail to find certain type of gameplay. They should be not afraid of unexpected changes happening when they don´t play for few days. Progress in this game is slow so players are very sensitive when they loose game progress. Unprotected zone means higher risk because of unpredictable human opponents.  So PvP should offer rare resources and provide loot that cannot be acquired in safe PvE areas, to balance that.

That s why I suggested a neutral faction for new players with a few non capturable neutral ports. To allow them discover the game mechs and early levelling  safe from national pvpers and rvr. But still possible pvp vs pirates m. And then switching to a nation via joining clan: reduce grief via alt problem+ blind nation choice.

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I proposed this already earlier. Let new players start as neutral, not attackable by national players and let them sail trade and gain xp by missions. When they have settled in, and wanna have some outposts & shipyard then they must decicde for one specific nation where they stay. Beforehand they can easily scan the map, sail out to all capitals and then stay where they want to. National player can advertise their nation in neutral chat. "Hey newbie, wanna join the swedes? We are nice small nation around gustavia and we help all new players. Been to gustavia already? Just visit us and see ......." Very easy and very promising I think

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15 hours ago, AngryPanCake said:

Why would you change or deprive a whole group of players with a completely different play style of their server?

It isnt denying them anything.  They can still play the game, and it would still be there.  It just wont be as big.  They will still have access to around 30%-40% of the ships in game.  If the developers arent going to be bothered to have aggressive AI on that server why bother with it outside of making it a training server.  

 

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On 8/9/2017 at 9:58 PM, Kanay said:

Pirates were supposed to be the hardcore mode, in the facts they always were and still are the easiest faction in game

WTF? Can you elaborate on this please? Give me 1 thing that makes it any easier to play a Pirate? Just ONE thing that made it "always" and "still is" and easiest nation in the game.
The ONLY thing that national dont get of what pirates have is Green on Green. Does this somehow makes us more powerful? Would you like to have Green on Green in your nation too?
I certainly would welcome that idea!! I can hunt you then with the same flag as yours and at the same time benefit of being in the large nation. If anything GnG makes it harder for us.

Do we get same player intake when new people coming to the game?.. Nope, no one turns pirate when they start. Its usually US or GB that they choose naturally.
Do we get same access to BPs?.. Nope. We have to smuggle them from nations.
Do we get access to stronger builds than nationals?.. Nope
Do we get access to bigger ships than nationals?.. Nope
Do our ships sail faster and guns shoot further?.. Nope
Even the Pirate perk we had was accessible to everyone.
And don't even let me get started on the alliances that we used to have while pirates could not ally.

So yeah. Please explain exactly what you mean. I want to know how am I in advantage being a pirate?

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1 minute ago, koltes said:

WTF? Can you elaborate on this please? Give me 1 thing that makes it any easier to play a Pirate? Just ONE thing that made it "always" and "still is" and easiest nation in the game.
The ONLY thing that national dont get of what pirates have is Green on Green. Does this somehow makes us more powerful? Would you like to have Green on Green in your nation too?
I certainly would welcome that idea!! I can hunt you then with the same flag as yours and at the same time benefit of being in the large nation. If anything GnG makes it harder for us.

Do we get same player intake when new people coming to the game?.. Nope, no one turns pirate when they start. Its usually US or GB that they choose naturally.
Do we get same access to BPs?.. Nope. We have to smuggle them from nations.
Do we get access to stronger builds than nationals?.. Nope
Do we get access to bigger ships than nationals?.. Nope
Do our ships sail faster and guns shoot further?.. Nope
Even the Pirate perk we had was accessible to everyone.
And don't even let me get started on the alliances that we used to have while pirates could no ally.

So yeah. Please explain exactly what you mean. I want to know how am I in advantage being a pirate?

Green on green allowed you to win the RvR battle on Global to avoid screeners recently

Largest Nation because of reasons

You did ask :P

 

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5 hours ago, Sven Silberbart said:

If a large organized group want to make big profit they need to bring slow trader ships with big hull and an escort. The opposite could try to capture them even with lower numbers but more battleships. Maybe it is also a good idea to craft items to bring there, wich are needed to craft the trade goods. Those item carriers would be an intersting startegic target. The whole big organized fleet craft their items and starts sailing back. Sometimes they are disrupted by the several fights. This is the time for the smaller groups and lone players. Either to sneak to the craft spot and craft goods for themselves or attacking the smaller parts from the former big organized fleet.

"only give profits for privateers and organized large pvp groups". A big organized fleet would always try fight for the biggest profit spot. If there are some other lower profit spots, maybe there is the chance for smaller groups or lone players. But all spots should be close together to create a bigger pvp area. Or maybe use shallows to create sneaky ways for smaller trader and lone players a big fleet would not sail trough.

 

 

I agree. Traders needs to be SLOW and sluggish. Have larger cargo capacity. They can take the risk. If they succeed they will make more than before. If they get caught they cant run away. The slower traders will get, the faster they will learn to organize trade caravans with an escort. Bigger their hold will be, more affordable it will be for them to pay for escort.

In EVE Online hauling ships are sluggish and an easy prey. Yet items gets delivered somehow. Its player made content. I used to even play as an escort for some time my self.

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9 minutes ago, Custard said:

Green on green allowed you to win the RvR battle on Global to avoid screeners recently

Largest Nation because of reasons

You did ask :P

 

That's a BS argument. Outlaw battle opens for full duration. Nationals can achieve exact same thing by attacking AI fleet and the battle will close in 3 minute.
Do you have any other real arguments? Question was HOW am I in advantage? Even in this example using Outlaw battle does not give ANY advantage. In fact it puts us in disadvantage in comparison.

"Largest nation because of reasons" means what exactly? First of all we are not largest nation. We are nation that have largest veterans base. We didnt get them because we are pirates. If BLACK were Spanish we would do exact same thing as a Spain. When I was recruiting I personally went around the server and cherry picked players who had the right attitude. This effort took months. How being a pirate helped me to do that? You are mixing up player's efforts and the game play. Whatever advantages we have now as pirates was hard earned by my clan. We were given nothing for free. Nothing that you didn't have

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2 hours ago, jodgi said:

(not directed towards shae:)

I think this is the most common reason we bleed players.

Many of you here love the economy, the depth, the meaning of it all, the thrill of risking loss. I know and respect that it is your raison d'être.

It puzzles me, though, that you expect OW PvP to PvE ratios to be better than in EVE.

It's not the economy, its the cost of things.  There wasn't enough reduction in blue print required resources when durabilities were reduced to 1.  And, on top of it, we now have million dollar modules.  2 hours to replace a 5 durability ship...that might be acceptable.  2 hours to replace a 1 durability Surprise, that is unacceptable.

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12 minutes ago, koltes said:

I agree. Traders needs to be SLOW and sluggish. Have larger cargo capacity. They can take the risk. If they succeed they will make more than before. If they get caught they cant run away. The slower traders will get, the faster they will learn to organize trade caravans with an escort. Bigger their hold will be, more affordable it will be for them to pay for escort.

In EVE Online hauling ships are sluggish and an easy prey. Yet items gets delivered somehow. Its player made content. I used to even play as an escort for some time my self.

Not all haulers in EVE are slow and sluggish.  There are specific ones that are designed as blockade runners.  

Traders in game dont need to be slow.   Trader ships in game need to be the same base speed as their non-trader counterparts.  The cargo slows them down enough.  

It makes ZERO logical sense for a Trader Snow to go 10.9kn while a Snow goes 12.95kn base.   Why is the Trader Snow 2 knots slower when empty?   Is it because it has half to crew... oh that cant be it, because that is for cargo space.... can it be because it has thinner masts.... nope that is for cargo space too....

 

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11 minutes ago, koltes said:

That's a BS argument. Outlaw battle opens for full duration. Nationals can achieve exact same thing by attacking AI fleet and the battle will close in 3 minute.
Do you have any other real arguments? Question was HOW am I in advantage? Even in this example using Outlaw battle does not give ANY advantage. In fact it puts us in disadvantage in comparison.

"Largest nation because of reasons" means what exactly? First of all we are not largest nation. We are nation that have largest veterans base. We didnt get them because we are pirates. If BLACK were Spanish we would do exact same thing as a Spain. When I was recruiting I personally went around the server and cherry picked players who had the right attitude. This effort took months. How being a pirate helped me to do that? You are mixing up player's efforts and the game play. Whatever advantages we have now as pirates was hard earned by my clan. We were given nothing for free. Nothing that you didn't have

You all have been saying this a lot lately.  And I highly doubt that would be true.  If BLACK was Spanish you would be frustrated and limited.  God help you if you were US and tried to deal with clans that dont want to work with you because of what ever reason they have.   You wouldnt be able to exact a revenge on them and beat them into line by tagging them and attacking them.   Well you could but that would result in a lot of tribunals.  

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7 minutes ago, Hodo said:

You all have been saying this a lot lately.  And I highly doubt that would be true.  If BLACK was Spanish you would be frustrated and limited.  God help you if you were US and tried to deal with clans that dont want to work with you because of what ever reason they have.   You wouldnt be able to exact a revenge on them and beat them into line by tagging them and attacking them.   Well you could but that would result in a lot of tribunals.  

Hodo, I dont care, what flag I carry and how many clans are there in US. If we were to bring BLACK to US we would NEVER EVER rely on their clans. If they come and do something good. If not, who cares. This is how it always was in Pirates. Mort rats where always doing their own thing. BLACK did their own.
You just fail to see that its ONE clan that is beating you. Not the nation. No matter where you take this clan the results will be the same

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I'm ignorant in the ways and rules of the game, but are there things the nationals can do and the Pirates cannot and vice versa . I know outlaw battle is something they can do , are there others ? I don't mean things that can be easily sorted with alts ..

 

People often bring up, we're or you're the biggest Nation, but do we know this for a fact or are we portraying our perception as fact when it's not entirely true ?

 

Seems to be a lot of facts churned out which are only opinions , not helpful for  a reasonable debate

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9 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

Seems to be a lot of facts churned out which are only opinions , not helpful for  a reasonable debate

Have'nt you learned yet, people do not come here for reasonable debate.

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