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Preliminary discussion of the changes to conquest - clan wars are coming


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8 hours ago, Christendom said:

@admin The size and scope of this game is too large for it's current population levels.  These numbers are very similar to what you had before the wipe, this is the size of your testing base.  It's not gonna get better until drastic changes to the game take place. 

What needs to be done in the meantime:

- merge the servers.  more players = more content.
- Map is too large for so few players.  Merge in PVE and make a "Neutral area" as you discussed months ago.
- Too many nations.  this player base, split between 2 servers....cannot field enough players in all 8 of the nations to make them viable.  Some need to be cut or removed until launch.
- Raids OR something new.  We need something new to do that isn't a rehash of the same old stuff.  Desperately.

The world is not too large.  We played just fine with 50 people, same world, slower speeds.  We didn't have a map then and we had less knowledge of the world.  Granted, the English were at St John's and English Harbor, the Dutch at Oranjestad, and I think the Spanish at Santo Domingo (or was it Havana?).  The Pirates were still at Mort.  We didn't even have port battles.  The only content we had was pve and pvp.  Since the world wasn't mapped and the secret island was still a secret, we had exploration and mapping as well.  But even though all the capitals were relatively close, clan locations frequently changed, and that changed were the wars took place.  A lot of fighting took place around Jamaica (British Capital was at Antigua remember) and Road Town.  Some fighting took place in the Yucatan and Venezuela when SLRN would move locations.

Taking nations out

If we take nations out, what is to insure that the nations are balanced?  Nothing.  We might end up with the same unbalanced state.  We originally started with British, French, Swedish, Spanish, Dutch, Pirates, can't remember about Denmark, US was added later.  But, maybe taking nations out is the way to go, but see below.  

I can agree to a system that essentially forces the playerbase into 3 or 4 nations but keep all of the current nations (and maybe allow others to be added) by making two types of nations:  npc and port battle nations (kind of like Eve has npc corps and player corps).  

The system I dream of is like this:

  • There are npc nations whose ports are unconquerable and which don't take part in Port Battles.  Players can join these nations and take part in pvp but not port battles.  
  • This will force players to join port battle nations if they want port battles and funnel the playerbase into a few nations.  Npc nations will still require resources from port battle areas.  They will need to keep their relations good with port battle nations so they can enter their ports and build outposts there (and do econ, for a tax of course) or buy from their market (higher taxed though, this is where smuggling comes in, getting around paying the tax).
  • 3 or 4 nations will vie for control of the map.  
  • PB nations would be Britain, France, Spain, and pirates (not a nation though).  
  • Non pb nations would be Sweden, Denmark, US, and Dutch.  
  • Pirates can't build above 5th rates, so their ports will mainly be shallow ports.  
  • Pirates don't conquer ports in the same way as normal nations, but force the port into a lawless state to take it over (pvp, smuggling, raiding).  
  • Raiding is an attack on the port's fort.  The port won't change to a lawless state until the fort is defeated.
  •  Nationals can attack pirate ports like normal and a normal pb will take place to take it back.  But pirates can't build 1-4th rates, so should have a hard time holding deep water ports.
  • Trading 1-4th rates to a pirate is a crime that makes that player a pirate.  
  • Each player has a reputation with each nation that allows the player to join that nation if their relation gets high enough. 
  • You can enter all ports unless you have negative relations with the port nation or your nation is at war with the nation of that port.  
  • In another nation's port you can do missions for its admiralty to raise your relations with that nation.  
  • Attacking players of another nation causes a severe decrease in relation to that nation, enough of a decrease to mean you can't enter that nation's ports anymore.
  • Attacking ai of a nation causes a minor relation penalty
  • Attacking anyone with a smuggler flag does not decrease relation with the smuggler's nation.  They are essentially temporarily an outlaw/pirate.
  • pirates have negative relations with every nation
  • pirates don't start off pirate.
  • smuggler flag still allows you to enter any port as long as you are in a trader.

So, the non pb nations are still in the game and you can sail under that flag, just not take part in port battles.  I think most people will join the pb nations.

Edited by Prater
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Hello Captains. We would like to share some information on the potential changes to conquest.  Current Problems New player experience is uneven and heavily depends on the nation you join.

current system does not work. If player joins spain on PVP Global he leaves like in 1-2 days. Because he sees that he can never win. Basic game design rule - if perceived chance to win the game is 0 t

another statement on the wipe There will be no wipe. only map reset. In fact there might be no wipes any more even on release. But its not a promise. 

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8 hours ago, Christendom said:

@admin The size and scope of this game is too large for it's current population levels.  These numbers are very similar to what you had before the wipe, this is the size of your testing base.  It's not gonna get better until drastic changes to the game take place. 

What needs to be done in the meantime:

- (1) merge the servers.  more players = more content.
- (2) Map is too large for so few players.  Merge in PVE and make a "Neutral area" as you discussed months ago.
- Too many nations.  this player base, split between 2 servers....cannot field enough players in all 8 of the nations to make them viable.  Some need to be cut or removed until launch.
- Raids OR something new.  We need something new to do that isn't a rehash of the same old stuff.  Desperately.

(1) Merging 2 PvP servers and bringing together two groups of people with same play style may make sense, (2) however, I do not see at all how merging 2 groups of players that are very different will improve the issues the PvP servers are having! It's a PvP problem, adding or forcing PvE players into a PvP server will not fix it.

PvE players play on the PvE server because they have no interest in playing on the PvP server, otherwise, the PvE server would be completely empty and everyone would be sharing the PvP server (s), wouldn't it?

(2) As you said, that was offered months ago and if you remember both player groups declined the idea.

I think you are left with figuring out how to solve PvP issues among PvP players. Good luck to you and hope things get better for you guys.

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Sounds like you played on the same map, but you only used 20% of that map.

I don't understand why people insist on having the PVE server players on their PVP server. How selfish and shortsighted can you be? Either you can't force PVP on them, so they hardly matter to you anyways, or you can, and they will all quit after that.

Edited by Quineloe
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8 hours ago, fox2run said:

As an old time veteran gamer, I can say that the only thing that will help is making it easy to get into a fight and to loose without too much loss. I will not play a game where it takes too long to have all the fun stuff. Port Battles, pvp, trading etc. It all takes too long time in preparations compared to other games. MMO does not have to be boring MMO. Naval Action is just that now, but that has not always been the case. Go back to basic. Forget about all the RvR and concentrate on the single player MMO experience. Is this part fun? Is that part fun? RvR will always organize themselves so to speak. Clans will come and go. The single player online should be your main focus. If he is bored, you can forget about everything else. 

Then play Naval Action Legends.  How many times does someone have to tell you that?

22 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

Sounds like you played on the same map, but you only used 20% of that map.
 

Who is this directed at?  If me, no, we used the whole map.  The US coast wasn't finished yet, but we fought from the Lesser Antilles to the Yucatan, the Bahamas down to South America.

Edited by Prater
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I quite like the new iteration of conquest admin suggested. ports having maintenance costs and alliance diplomats system.but I still have problems with a few things:  

 

-new player experience: the easier way would be to make new characters join the neutral faction, operating from safe and not safe neutral ports and Freetown. 

 Neutral players are safe from pvp from national players but free pvp vs pirates (introduction to pvp , easy to identify the threat) national can only assist neutral in pirate vs neutral Battles, but can tag neutral using smuggler mode.

Have to join or create a national clan to join a nation and rvr game or join pirate by attaking other neutral or national players.

can still form basic clan with no rvr.

Pirates can be recruited in a national clan and then switch to the nation or form pirate clans. (Pirate gameplay is another topic)

> kind of tutorial (+semi carebear) faction

>safer early grind 

> new players join nation knowing the real map situation ATM (not the weird easy/medium/hardcore starting indication)

> Alts can stay neutral or be identified easily if joining an opponent faction.

(>Maybe attractive for pve players)

------------

-Pb battles needs to change to allow for more dynamic lineups and grant comeback chances for less powerful clans:

maybe something like this:

- when a pb is set, both side have the right to form a port battle group with the participants of the pb.

- a pbgroup have 25 slots: each kind of ship count for 1 or more slots ( maybe like agga 1, bello1.5, pavel2,bucc2.5, victory3, ocean&santi 3,5) the more  bigger ship the less ships.  (Pb group slots count varies Depending on the kind of pb, mortar brigs could count as 0.5 in all pb, strict values to be discussed)

-  diplomats or leaders from defending and attacking clans both have the choice to define allied port battle group leaders from other clans (maybe even if not from a same nation) the two designated allied player will be able to form a pbgroup in a same manner, allowed to join their respective side of the pb and fight next to the belligerents in the limit of 25 slots.

> clans better have good relations with at least another clan if they want to fill the 25 slots.

>work against formation of Megaclans ruling a nation then the map. 

> possible situational / temporary alliances between clans from different nations to overthrow a more powerful and united nation.

>less pb with25 vs 25 same best ships clone war.

Edited by Baptiste Gallouédec
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3 hours ago, Hodo said:

A man who understands percentages and math.... thank you.  

It drives me nuts when I see people brag about a 150k profit off of a 150k buy and 2 hours sail.

I can make 100k in an hour hunting NPC trade ships in a Snow.

I totally agree. It sounded like @Quineloe was having trouble making a profit. Sorry, Quineloe, I misunderstood your complaint.

I would not do a 2 hour sail for 150k either. 30 minutes? Sometimes. The economy is broken here and it's not because the Havana Symphony Orchestra won't pay enough for violins. It's because the only goods that are in a realistic demand are items that are consumed or lost in war and we don't have enough people fighting or who have a reason to fight.

If one only wants to be a trader or crafter, I'd recommend they find another game until (or if) crafting and trading are developed here. My opinion is that for this version of the game to ever be more than the limping, slow bleed of players who get bored it will have to become "Civilization" with a killer combat and conquest capability. Whether the Legends version can build a good player base we will see.

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10 hours ago, Christendom said:

if you've been paying attention recently a decent sized amount of US players joined the game and created that clan PARF, they followed that one streamer PIxie (i think).  They had a decent sized clan of 20+ players and were thriving for a couple of weeks.  I talked to one of their members yesterday and he told me that most of them, including the streamer guy Pixie, had quit.  Basically it was too difficult for them to play with the pirates owning a port just south of them.  Savannah.  They said they could not do any econ to build ships without getting ganked 24/7 and were having a very difficult time grinding up mission XP outside of CT because it was camped 24/7.  BLACK clan took this region for the explicit purpose of hunting down players outside of CT and have farmed them mercilessly over the past month or 2.  

This is the new player experience.  It needs to change.  

This was the case when I first started over a year ago too. I nearly quit but switched to great Britain instead..best decision.

I missed flying the stars and strips so before wipe I returned to US..... MISTAKE!

Worse there now than before. But since allied ports are gone it is stupid hard. So I switched back to GB.... I'll probably stay.... actually I have no choice because that too has been taken away unless I want to sink another 1 year of my life into leveling up again.

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11 hours ago, admin said:

so why then online was much lower than today (across all servers) in november december when these features were in game from november till may??

because a lot of us left the game waiting for a wipe.  Remember you turned off most of the pirate options driving away a good deal of players.  And the alliances broke some stuff too......numbers are not directly related to that 1 change

Edited by Fastidius
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13 hours ago, admin said:

All features - all design before was focused on - How can we make a player a target more often. Which was loved by pvp players. But the majority left.

The problem I see is "audience shift".

PvP lovers quit in 2016 because it was too hard to find good PvP. Teleports... shipping from free port to free port... port capture mechanics making it extremely irritating to try and move up a front line to base out of... PvPers got frustrated and quit.

SOME came back to try the patch 10 changes and I dare say we like them overall. There is still more to do but we like what patch 10 did. But you lost a lot of the non-PvPers who were upset at the changes.

So the 2016 game lost the PvPers.
The 2017 game lost the PvErs (and too few PvPers came back to try the new system).
That leaves....not a lot of people.

Still to do:

RvR and PvP are disconnected. You can RvR while mostly avoiding PvP. And you can PvP while ignoring RvR. Somehow we need to get these systems to overlap more. "Contention grind" was supposed to do it but it still moves too fast. In a game where a fight can last 90 minutes and sailing around easily takes 30+ minutes, an organized group can completely take a port from 0 to 100% contention faster than a resistance can see this and organize to fight them.

Pick an audience, focus the marketing on that audience and then advertise to them.

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19 hours ago, admin said:

 

We can supply new players to game (10000 new players came to NA during last 3 months) but current system do not keep them. No-one stayed. 

 

you should prolly divide that number by 2 to account for the amount of alternate accounts that were bought during summer sale.        and if you want them to stay  ADD a UI that doesn't look like total trash. put in a sound track to the game. its the little things that matter for first timers.

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19 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Wow some one needs to take a chill pill or something this post is about RvR game mechanics not about pirates.

It might no please you but it is totally on subject :

Do we continue with the stupidity of having pirates acting exactly as any other Nation able to do conquests while profiting of extra advantages the other Nations don't have, even now having the special privilege of getting a fleet totally immune versus enemies in front of a port since no one can reach them in a outlaw battle or they can do the outlaw a few minutes just before a server restart and hide for hours there until they decide to all log into the game at the same time many hours later, one of the many advantages they always received from day one in this game for no reasons at all since they are not pirates, never acted as pirates, always acted as a Nation like the others, or do the Dev's finally put them balls on the table and deliver what they promised : make the pirates a hardcore mode and make them real pirates not able to do conquests and instead create what they also spoke about themselves in this thread, a raiding mechanic that can be used just for this hardcore faction and conquests possible only for Nations.

This whole pirates mascarade have lasted long enough, since this is about conquests it's time to know if this supposed historical game will continue with the non sense of pirates acting as a Nation while receiving bypasses and special privileges making them the easiest faction to play in game since the first day of this game or continue to be a Nation exactly like the others and then get them special privileges removed once and for all or if they finally deliver what they promised more than once about pirates... Simple as this. 
 

Edited by Kanay
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12 hours ago, Captain Lust said:

 

Read what he commented, please. My "type of play" is PvP.... on the PvP server ( it doesnt mean sealclubbing ) . If anything the increased reward for pvp will increase activity of real pvp players on the pvp server = more content and not chase them away. This guy clearly wants to play only pve and ended up on the wrong server, so i gave him helpful advice. If he actually wanted to play pvp too he would want increased rewards for it since it takes way more time and risk to get a good pvp fight over a npc mission. We have a PvE server for a reason. Can you comprehend?

By "your type of play" i mean players engaging other player in pvp while they are not ready. 

Let me explain: this game requires ship exp before u can open knowledge slots. Because of this some chose to do pve missions. Pvp players because they do not have a place to do their pvp, will sail to enemy regions and there attack any and every player they see. And so, u have players that are ready to do pvp attacking, players that do not feel ready for pvp. 

This is what i mean with "your play style".

As admin said predators need a steddy supply of prey. Well, turns out pray, do not play allong with this view.

Now, stop harrassing me!

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8 hours ago, Captain Lust said:

seapirates_395.jpg

Sorry, i had to...

And yet those 5 guys are all it takes to capture billion gazillion tons cargo ship, while in game traders fight like terminators. And something tells me they don't even need to turn him into wind in order to board him :P

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17 hours ago, Sven Silberbart said:

Yes. Wee need green zones and a very good reason (money, and/or goods) to sail out.

I remember an online game having a simple idea. Two realms and at the special times an event to craft goods for selling with good profit. That was a real PvP Hotspot. The players organized themself in the green area start sailing their ships towards there. Much fights on the way to and much more fights at the hotspot. If you could craft some valuable goods without get killed start sailing the dangerous way back to home. A simple design as this:

 

 

Unbenannt.JPG

this is the plan

but - what we are worried about is that the pvp hotspot will only give profits for privateers and organized large pvp groups (like those who are delivering 200,000 fittings to free towns in one trip). 

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I'm more concerned with players who can play at 9am making their millions risk free because no one is online while those who are limited to playing at prime time will find this content inaccessible due to high risk.

Right now you have players sailing back and forth between capitals (with one of them obviously being hostile!) without a care in the world, making profits each trip, simply because they can play when there are only 100 players online.

I am having the impression that this is already now the case, whoever is online right after server up can sell trade goods for excellent prices, and by 10pm all the good trade goods are saturated at 1 gold and you don't even have that option anymore.

Edited by Quineloe
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32 minutes ago, admin said:

this is the plan

but - what we are worried about is that the pvp hotspot will only give profits for privateers and organized large pvp groups (like those who are delivering 200,000 fittings to free towns in one trip).

 Of course it will, what do you expect from this ?

Traders not escorted, either lone players, or some with smaller players escorts or larger clans who will after a bit get bored to death escorting dedicated traders members to in the end just play the scarecrow as most players in groups won't bother to attack a similar force group, they use them group to attack only if they are assured of a victory at the end, they can be in slightly better hips and superior numbers but they won't risk it if there is a single chance to loose ... only attacking when it's a guaranteed win... not like this have not been seen over and over since the OW release and being a constant ...  large escorts will just push them away for a bit  playing the scarecrows, the hunters will just search focus on easier preys while staying away from what could hurt them ... and you perfectly know what will be the main targets there, it will be again the poor traders as you always provided them as easy meat... nerfing them each patch so they become the main "pvp" (sig) content in this game... Many so called pvp guys will just avoid most of the other guys in warships and wait for the large traffic of lone or low defended trading ships in the easy meat area of the map you try to create ...

Plus it will be like the Vatican during WW2, the place in the world with most spies by square meter, most alts will be in this area doing them work and reporting intel easily ...

 

Edited by Kanay
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IMHO placing start location at national capital big trading and shipbuilding center is not helping to populate game with new players. New players have to first get used to the game, grind ranks and explore the game content. If one cannot rank up and learn on PvE server and than migrate on PvP server, there has to be separated protected areas. Players should be able to understand where to sail to find certain type of gameplay. They should be not afraid of unexpected changes happening when they don´t play for few days. Progress in this game is slow so players are very sensitive when they loose game progress. Unprotected zone means higher risk because of unpredictable human opponents.  So PvP should offer rare resources and provide loot that cannot be acquired in safe PvE areas, to balance that.

Do you agree with me that with recent settings people are not interested in port battles? IMHO there is already a lot of attractive content but just lack of balance enforced by game rules. Why players get rare drops from random PvE? Why people do not attend announced PvP events and prefer ambushing helpless players? 

 

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I like that the regions dissolve and the flags are coming backI. However I am a bit confused about all the different directions this game has taken...I dont like the complexity of the proposed system, I don´t think it will ever work for the players.

I think it would be better to respect the KISS ( KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID) system. I like History, it is my thing, but the History part should not come on the expense of the fun of the game.

In stead of Clan wars, just bring nation cohesion back, and do not make fault lines between different types af clans, don´t limit the player experience.

My best experience from this game thorough the last 1,5 years was when it was actually possible to help players out a good wile after they where attacked in OW, making it difficult to attack in national waters and when it happened it could bring out a lot of players for PVP making for frequent large PVP OW battles, and making the new players feel that they could depend on the nations help, as a counter wieght  to ganking from other nations, and especially pirates ( It is supposed to be hard, to attack in national waters close to a capital, and it is supposed to be hard being a pirate, and they where never really a nation). That made new players feel very welcome to the game, and supported and befriended by the nation, in what is a difficult game to start in.  The introduction of Rookie zones just made for seal clubbing by admirals in love with the swiftness of small ship action (A rattlesnake can be just as fun as a Santissima). And It was harder for the nation to help out and support new players that chose to spawn there.

That you had to fight over every port in stead of regions made for more freequent PB´s , and more rvr activity, I guess that is coming back now I hope.

However for me this game has become and huge PVE grinding effort(We all want to sail a ship with the best upgrades, which makes for a hideous PVE grind) , severely limiting my time and resources for PVP. I hope that will change, but PVP should be easy to come by from the start for new players without the risk of loosing so many resources/ PVE grind time that it would take a fourthnight to recover from the loses. Make this game more accessible for people who are not able to play day and night, have families and jobs.

I am not saying that I have a lot of answers on how this great game should be, I just wanted to share my toughts .

All the best to you all.

Kiilerich

DANVE/Danmark-Norge

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, admin said:

this is the plan

but - what we are worried about is that the pvp hotspot will only give profits for privateers and organized large pvp groups (like those who are delivering 200,000 fittings to free towns in one trip). 

If a large organized group want to make big profit they need to bring slow trader ships with big hull and an escort. The opposite could try to capture them even with lower numbers but more battleships. Maybe it is also a good idea to craft items to bring there, wich are needed to craft the trade goods. Those item carriers would be an intersting startegic target. The whole big organized fleet craft their items and starts sailing back. Sometimes they are disrupted by the several fights. This is the time for the smaller groups and lone players. Either to sneak to the craft spot and craft goods for themselves or attacking the smaller parts from the former big organized fleet.

"only give profits for privateers and organized large pvp groups". A big organized fleet would always try fight for the biggest profit spot. If there are some other lower profit spots, maybe there is the chance for smaller groups or lone players. But all spots should be close together to create a bigger pvp area. Or maybe use shallows to create sneaky ways for smaller trader and lone players a big fleet would not sail trough.

 

 

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19 hours ago, admin said:

Lets be honest
Lets imagine a new player. He just got his captain rank. He wants to pvp eventually but he wants to get some foothold first.

What is the risk/reward for a unexperienced player sailing solo in his cerberus or LGV from KPR to Hispaniola near la navasse?
Even if he gets 100 mln for that SUPER DUPER IMAGINARY mission. Do you think he will get to it? 
Even with the free ships.. do you think he will sail there after 3rd sinking?

 

well to solve the problem in eve they introduced the Opportunity   section 

where a beginning alpha has to do some stuff like killing rats in the belt , and he gets rewarded for it, also after he has been rewarded for his achievement is accomplished ,he is directed to a next opportunity(by popups ) he has to follow, for the only purpose to get to know the game on his basics , also joining a clan is one of them ,or hauling goods from one port or loading long guns ,or make rum for the crew ,,and make a small upgrade, to  just to learn basic stuff , if we had a similar system the game makes the player becomes  aware of the opportunity to sail in a clan, or the danger he can expect in OW ...it will help the new player of the awareness of his potential, how great this game can be for him, just doing some good experience (forced by the game) instead of throwing himself in the deep and drown. and never been seen again..... this can be done by pop up with explanations in the first beginning of the player 

Edited by Thonys
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18 hours ago, admin said:

Lets be honest
Lets imagine a new player. He just got his captain rank. He wants to pvp eventually but he wants to get some foothold first.

What is the risk/reward for a unexperienced player sailing solo in his cerberus or LGV from KPR to Hispaniola near la navasse?
Even if he gets 100 mln for that SUPER DUPER IMAGINARY mission. Do you think he will get to it? 
Even with the free ships.. do you think he will sail there after 3rd sinking?

 

No, because you took out gold / exp for damage.
The most fundamental change you've done to PVP in my opinion.
Win - Loss - Draw -> Battle Report: No Rewards is the most frustrating thing people complain about in my experience. They'd rather see no message at all.

Edited by Quineloe
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47 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

I'm more concerned with players who can play at 9am making their millions risk free because no one is online while those who are limited to playing at prime time will find this content inaccessible due to high risk.

Right now you have players sailing back and forth between capitals (with one of them obviously being hostile!) without a care in the world, making profits each trip, simply because they can play when there are only 100 players online.

I am having the impression that this is already now the case, whoever is online right after server up can sell trade goods for excellent prices, and by 10pm all the good trade goods are saturated at 1 gold and you don't even have that option anymore.

Does not even has to be the capitol.

Freetowns have their own "nationality". For example Les Desirade is French, producing French trade goods, which sell bad at Fort Royal, but sell very well in other capitols. Nowadays, Les Desirade is well inside the Swedish territory, making trips between this port and Gustavia an easy trip (as long as Moscalb and his ganking colleages are offline, of course). The same story can be told about other freetowns. 

Normally, such behaviour would simply reduce the prices for French trading goods in Gustavia to a point where it is not profitable any longer. But with rigid prices, this is not the case. Just wait until the port has consumed enough for prices to soar above 1g, and it will magically buy the trading goods for very high prices again.

The economy part of the game is simply a joke. This has nothing to do with player numbers.

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I don't think that's a bad economy. It generates money rather than just redistributing it. It generates trading that doesn't rely on labor hours. The question is: Is it profitable enough to that instead of just doing missions? Is it too easily available without risk in the slow hours? How many trips do you need to afford losing everything once?

 

Edited by Quineloe
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54 minutes ago, admin said:

this is the plan

but - what we are worried about is that the pvp hotspot will only give profits for privateers and organized large pvp groups (like those who are delivering 200,000 fittings to free towns in one trip). 

Unbelievable 

200000 fittings

If Iron Fittings then (200000*1)/(4000*1.20)=42 Indiamana (Weight=1 Perk Hold Optimization=1.2)

If Wooden Fittings then (200000*0.7)/(4000*1.20)=30 Indiamana (Weight=0,7 Perk Hold Optimization=1.2)

I would like to know clan tag this group.

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