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Preliminary discussion of the changes to conquest - clan wars are coming

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9 minutes ago, admin said:

the problem of alt buying a flag, placing it first and setting up a pb that you cannot enter as a clan is a problem. it can be countered to an extent but still 

Hmmm

Maybe you need a minimum of "X" characters in a war charter/company in order to even pull a flag.

So lets say you absolutely need 15 players in a war company to then be able to have one of those players pull a flag.

So if someone wants to abuse it with an alt, they need to buy 15 alts.

EDIT: better yet @admin. A war charter is supposed to take part in RvR yes? So make the minimum required to "pull" a flag to be 25 players in a war charter. Since 25 players is the max on one side of a battle, most players who RvR would not fight without 25 people anyway.

 

If war charters can combine players from other clans it would be nice too. So as slamz has said before

 Bork and purge each have 15 players, one of them makes a war charter and can invite the other clan to it.

So each member is in their separate clan, but together they make up one war charter.

 

EDITEDIT: to clarify, i would say a war charter that doesn't have 25 players cannot pull flag - but that doesn't mean they can't defend existing territory.

Edited by Teutonic
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6 minutes ago, admin said:

the problem of alt buying a flag, placing it first and setting up a pb that you cannot enter as a clan is a problem. it can be countered to an extent but still 

Regarding alts and the flag system could you possibly put a cap on who can buy a flag based on their rank? Maybe only the highest rank can buy a flag? This would at least make people work to be able to have an alt that can pull flags

Edited by Aventador
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So, I'm on vacation (travelling along the coast of the Baltic Sea), and I've been reading this topic, but been too busy to write down my own thoughts on the proposal. I wrote down a whole lot, trying to respond to the OP and some of the counterproposals, only this topic is moving so fast that whenever I am able to return to my computer to continue writing the topic has shifted far away and what I already wrote is in response to something that is long since abandoned. I'm on a four hour bus drive now, so I'll try to make sense of some of what I already wrote and also make additional comments.

First off. This idea sounds very interesting. It is a total shift from what we have now, and will take time to get used to. But if done in the right way it could help the game a lot.

The issue that would be most directly addressed by this, is that of nation imbalances and player demotivation over pixels changing colours on the map. That is one of the most significant problems this player-base has and if this can successfully address that problem it would be a great leap forward.

I will add some of my thoughts on this idea below.

Tax

On 02/08/2017 at 4:57 PM, admin said:

Nations will start taxing all activities in the caribbean (stamp tax) on all purchases, mining or forestry and player to player trade

If I understand this right, it means a flat, percentage tax on all transactions. It does not tax your wealth, but if all purchases, constructions and resources extractions would cost extra depending on the level of tax. 

I'm not sure if, and how, taxation on player-to-player transactions would work. Contracts, yes, but when players trade directly in the trade tool, I guess that would mean players would have to pay a gold price based on a percentage of the base gold value of the items each of the players puts into the trade tool. It could work, I am sure, and would definitely put a damper on econ-alts. But I'm not sure it is worth it overall.

For corporations to control this tax, some limitations need to apply. National Capitals and ports in capital regions should not be possible to select tax level for. If corporations should even be allowed to control capital regions, the tax should be set by NPC anyway, and be impossible for corporations to change.

There also needs to be an upper limit to the tax level that can be placed in any region, and tax levels can only be changed once every 2 weeks or so. Or maybe more.

There would be great potential here. If a corporation controls a region with rare resources and high demand, they can set a relatively high tax in that region. Because people have to buy it anyway. But if they control a region with common resources, they should set the tax level low to encourage players to set up their trade and production in that region - paying smaller volume, but more quantity of taxes to that corporation - rather than in the region of a competing corporation. 

Taxes should be included in prices shown by the trade tool and in the port shop. That way taxation will affect trade routes.

War Corporations

On 02/08/2017 at 4:57 PM, admin said:

Nations will grant charters (allow to create) for new type of chartered companies: war corporations or clans that will be allowed to establish control over regions in the Caribbean. 

  • current guilds and clans will remain the same
  • new chartered war company will be able to be created by players for the purpose of region control and taxation.

 

War corporations should be created as a structure that goes on top of clans, not as an alternative to clans. A clan can form a corporation, but they do not have to dissolve their clan.  As other clans decide to join that corporation their own clan is not dissolved and they get to keep their clan structure. It might be hidden, or it might be only a symbolic tag on your ship. I might be too sentimental about clans, but as someone who has spend a huge deal of effort in building my clan in every aspect I would hate to have to abandon all that and enter into the grinding wheels of a faceless and soulless corporation in order to be able to wage RvR. I am sure I am not the only one who thinks similarly. Many here express their wish to keep their small clans that are just for friends and at the same time bound together with other clans to form a corporation. Which is sort of realistic. Clans would function as stakeholders in those war corporations, like trading companies used to have stakeholders historically.

Nations are just a flag in RvR, while they remain as they are in regards to OW PvP. In RvR corporations would be replacing Nations as they are now.

Many clans should be able to go together to form a corporation. Small clans that want to do RvR can join a big corporation and do RvR as part of that corporation, while keeping their small clan intact and with the ability to go back to being a normal clan should they choose to step out of the war corporation or the war corporation be dissolved.

One thing I believe is important is that although corporations should have be registered with a nation, i.e have the support of a national King/Queen/Emperor/Republic, they should be possible to join by clans from any nation. Clans from Britain, Denmark and Dutch should be able to go together to form one war corporation. Why, you ask? Because then the number of teams can self-regulate. People keep complaining that 8 teams is too much. 8 nations is too much. If that is true, most clans will gradually and inevitably converge into 3-4 big war corporations that fight each other for supremacy. If that is too few teams, then more teams will come along, competing with the large established companies and setting up in some corner of the map to eventually fight their way towards the middle. But if war companies can only be joined by players from their own nation, then we will just be exacerbating a lot of the problems we are facing now. War companies from smaller nations will have a harder time recruiting and expanding, while war companies in larger nations will have more to recruit from and more variety of players. We also would increase from 8 teams to potentially twice or three times that, by each nation having competing companies. Unless you either put a maximum size on War companies or jump through a lot of hoops to make small nation war companies viable competitors to large nation war companies.

Another option, which I am not favouring, is to have all the nations we currently have in-game, but only allow war companies to be set up inside one of the larger nations historically. I.e, Spain, Britain, France and possibly Dutch. Historically, the Danish trading company Dansk Vestindisk-guineisk Kompagni was incorporated as an octroj originally registered in the Netherlands rather than in Copenhagen, and formally its name was to begin with Koninklijke Deense Verenigde Westindische Compagnie. 

I wish to keep sailing under the Danish Flag in this game, but realistically for the balancing (or semblance thereof) of RvR, companies have to be able to be multinational, or RvR-players have to be funneled into only a few nations where recruitment opportunities are equal for everyone. But then why keep nations around really at all?

 

 

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This topic is going places. I personally don`t like idea flag - just get money and buy it instead real fight during hostility. We should promote pvp aren`t we? I liked system to gain hostility by fight and support (not 100%!) by war supplies (i would say 25 % maximum). Where pvp kill gave you twice more hostility points than killing similar ship NPC. Seconary - What the point of fight inside one nation? Not get it...some X dont like Y and they start weak whole nation? rest of players suffer...because somebody big ego.

Few things need to be rework:

  • pirates mechanic and role in game (do it finally at least try! and remove bloody line ships for pirates it`s pain to my eyes)
  • implement raids - they may be chance for some gameplay for smaller "war companies " or even clans
  • resources balancing - if you going to move all important to center of map
  • Need some mechanics to stop vets killing new players by coasts - maybe no reward for sinking ship smaller class than yours? Or no rewards (combat marks) for sinking merchants since they slower and weaker in combat generally. Dunno post ideas if you have one...
  • Kind of diplomacy tool - since will be more fractions ( war companies - pick a better name btw ;)) we need know what`s going on and who ally with who. Overall it`s a risk to make big mess on OW and some players may be confused who they can attack, why somebody attack them etc...

Few more in my mind...will write soon

 

 

Edited by Bart Smith
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4 minutes ago, admin said:

the problem of alt buying a flag, placing it first and setting up a pb that you cannot enter as a clan is a problem. it can be countered to an extent but still 

That is why I mention that only Companies of a certain size can buy flags.  Since port battles are 25 players vs 25 players than a Company can't buy a flag until it is 25+ players.  That doesn't mean if has to bring a full 25, just means it needs that to be able to even attempt to go to war with another company.   Companies with larger player numbers can actually buy more than one flag if they have a large enough player pool.  Maybe limit them to 1 flag per day per 25 players.  Though I think the 3 flags a day would be a good top limit either way.

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52 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

We really need to have three types of ports that port isn't of that level than you can't get a ship bigger into it.  Though Nassau really prob should be a deep water port, but just limit it so that SOL's can't get into any port unless it's a SOL port is all.

You mean like nationals actually act like Nationals too?   I actually proposed some pretty hard core changes for pirates, but it seems the Devs never want to make Pirates actuall not a bastard/red-headed Step child of a Nation.

Until they do give us an actual mechanic than we should continue to be treated like the other nations.  We all ready don't have the BP's for the SOL of 2nd and 1st rates and we can't get the Permits for the Aggy and SOL of 2nd and 1st rates.  Which is add as we can buy the BP for the Aggy, but not the permits?    The only special ship we have is the Pirate Frigate which any national can get too the same way we get our SOL's BP's and Permits.    Personnel I think any National caught in a Pirate Frigate should be treated as a pirate by all.   You want to sail in a pirate ship you must be a pirate.  

It's a good question as a lot of folks don't know all the limitations and I'll be honest the only perk of the Pirate vs Pirate FFA's is the use of self police our own nation and well the fun duel here or there between clan mates.

I have one, had no special desire to get one at start, don't particularly love the look or color it have, loved to sail my Essex before, then they turned it into a complete over ranked piece of crap that it is now, more generally love the ships i can equip in full 12pd's so i tried to get a pirate frigate to see and it outclass totally the Essex in all domains and get way lower Br and way lower requirements for slots ...

Maybe the day the Dev's will stop to give extra advantages to pirates for the shake of doing it and the day they will stop treating unfairly or nerf some other ships for no logical reasons at all like they did with pirate frigate vs the Essex then this day we could talk about this again ... 

 

When then this day will happen they can take out my pirate frigate BP ... Until then ...

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Please move capitals away from each other. Danish and swedish capital right now is the worst placement. Even french capital is pretty close but it's okayish.

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3 minutes ago, rediii said:

Please move capitals away from each other. Danish and swedish capital right now is the worst placement. Even french capital is pretty close but it's okayish.

That placed historically am afraid - and tbh i like it

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6 hours ago, admin said:

War corporations will be able to change tax rates in ports (for example if the standard national tax rate is 15% war corporations will be able to reduce it to 0 or raise up to 30%) 

Who pays those taxes and what consquences does raising them have?

6 hours ago, admin said:

War corporations and national unity

  • Clans will be able to form war corporations
  • Port battles will ONLY be available to war corporations
  • War corporations will be able to change tax rates in ports (for example if the standard national tax rate is 15% war corporations will be able to reduce it to 0 or raise up to 30%) 
  • War corporations can fight other war corporations in the same nation ONLY in port battles
  • War corporations will be able to set their controlled port as free town (enterable by all nations) or as national town (enterable only by their own nation)
  • War corporations will have to vet their members themselves but if they do it properly alts will no longer interfere with port battles
  • Hostility changes will be done
    • Hostility grinding will be removed
      • Some kind of flag will return - but the placing time will be increased to 30 mins to give time to respond
  • Potentially we can bring back timers set by governors

Regions

  • Regions will split into individual ports for conquest (tentative)
  • All ports will be split into captureable (all large islands in the center of the map and island chains) and non captureable - coasts
  • All capture able ports will change status to neutral after reset
    • History fans can relax because in 2-3 weeks port captures will shape the nationalities of ports themselves. New players will come to a live fluid map, which will have stability along the coast and constant instability in the center.
  • Rare resources will move closer to the center of the map.. the closer to center the more potential profit would be on trading
  • Map will be reset

Coastal experience

  • Some capitals might be moved (with simple ID change so you don't have to reposition your resources). Or we can just move all assets players have to redeemables to give more options. 
  • Free towns will be removed from the coasts
  • Reinforcements in coastal ports will come back to game (as fleets no longer give xp)
    • to those who don't remember this is how they worked
      • If BR of enemy was higher than yours if you were attacked near your national port, the port would send you the support equal to the difference between your BR and enemy BR.
      • For example - if you were in a surprise and were attacked by two surprises port would send you 1 surprise to support you in battle (which you could command)
  • Potentially clans will be able to invest into improving port reinforcements class

 

Additional wipe announcement. There will be no asset resets/removals or wipes during this rework. Only map will reset (which will cause some inconvenience when moving resources).

You go bro... finally some changes that have the potential to make the game great again... i really hope this works out.

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4 minutes ago, rediii said:

Please move capitals away from each other. Danish and swedish capital right now is the worst placement. Even french capital is pretty close but it's okayish.

the only problem with sweden and denmark is where would they go? They only both had one region in the Caribbean and they were both right next to eachther

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1 minute ago, Captain Lust said:

If BR of enemy was higher than yours if you were attacked near your national port, the port would send you the support equal to the difference between your BR and enemy BR.

Just open battle for weaker side until some equal BR - no npc - they most time useless.

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1 minute ago, Aventador said:

the only problem with sweden and denmark is where would they go? They only both had one region in the Caribbean and they were both right next to eachther

Given Sweden is the closest to any other capital ( 2 of them ) I will suggest Dariena.

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8 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Fine you want to limit us than limit nationals.   You can't capture ships, any ship you capture auto goes to the Admiralty to be auction off or refitted to be put back into service.  You can only have one SOL at a time.  What captain was ever commissioned on more than one ship in the Navy at time?  If a National Captain is caught in a stolen ship (pirate frigate or any others) than they should be treated as a pirate.  

We can go on and on and on on this, but until the Devs change pirates and give them an actually pirate mechanics you have to live with the fact we are still nothing more than a nation with a black flag.  I'm really getting sick of Nationals trying to tell us how to play our nation when ya'll don't even play your own right and make care bear alliance and never fight each other.  If I remember right in history most of the big nations in game actually fought each other at one time or another.  Something many of them refuse to do. 

6

Wow you jumped off a deep end there. But hey I would be ok with most of that, personally, I think there should be 3 faction that stands its own with only 1 picking a nation. Similar to how POBS did it.

You would have your Navy, they can go all the way up to SOL. Any ship they capped they could not keep only got coin or admiralty points. They would gain XP, but to move to the next rank they would have to complete some sort of Admiralty order, IE "take x number of trade ships", "kill x number of players", "take a port". Set it up so if you want to be in a War Company, you'll want to be in the navy. 

You would have your Civilian caption, they couldn't buy permits from the admiralty story but they keep what they cap. They would be your primary traders. You could even set it up that they are not tied to a nation but can get a letter of marques to sail under a nation's flag, provided they had the positive rep. 

You would then have the Pirates, they would have the hidden island as their own ports, they would not be able to sail anything above a 4-5th rate (rank capped, they just don't have the men to sail the bigger ships), they would not be able to form war companies. However, they can TP to any free port they have an outpost at, they keep anything 7st-4th rate they cap and anything above they get a coin amount. They get a bonus to raids, increase the number of goods taken, and boarding bonus. They would be the primary OW pvps. 

This gives everyone their spot... you want to do a ton of RVR, go navy, you want to trade and be a bit more PVE, go Civilian, want to PVP, go pirate. You would be able to switch from one to another as long as you have the rep. IE a pirate could be a British naval captain as long as he had rep with the Brit navy.... may be hard to do and take some time. A naval officer could go pirate but would lose a shit ton of rep and be kill on sight for both sides till he's able to grind up both reps. 

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2 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

Given Sweden is the closest to any other capital ( 2 of them ) I will suggest Dariena.

Or go step forward and make WHOLE map neutral and let the nations( again - war companies pick own Capital) - by expensive charter after they conquer certain region. Captains will spawn in free towns they choose after map resart.

Edited by Bart Smith
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5 minutes ago, Kanay said:

I have one, had no special desire to get one at start, don't particularly love the look or color it have, loved to sail my Essex before, then they turned it into a complete over ranked piece of crap that it is now, more generally love the ships i can equip in full 12pd's so i tried to get a pirate frigate to see and it outclass totally the Essex in all domains and get way lower Br and way lower requirements for slots ...

Maybe the day the Dev's will stop to give extra advantages to pirates for the shake of doing it and the day they will stop treating unfairly or nerf some other ships for no logical reasons at all like they did with pirate frigate vs the Essex then this day we could talk about this again ... 

 

When then this day will happen they can take out my pirate frigate BP ... Until then ...

The convo was if they limit pirates to shallow water and light ships than they need to limit the use of pirate like ships to Nationals since you don't want us in SOL, than you shouldn't be in our ships either.   Pirates should be the master of light ships and light frigates while Nationals should be the master of the Heavy frigates and SOL.  Until they give us a proper mechanics than stop bitching that was aren't pirate enough.   If your going to put restrictions on us than Nationals should be restricted in some way too. 

11 minutes ago, Aventador said:

Regarding alts and the flag system could you possibly put a cap on who can buy a flag based on their rank? Maybe only the highest rank can buy a flag? This would at least make people work to be able to have an alt that can pull flags

Rank isn't exactly a good thing, cause remember a rank 3 can do shallow water battles.  So why shouldn't a bunch of new players that make a war company be able to pull a flag for shallow waters?  Maybe do a tier for the type of port the flag belongs too.  

Rank 3+ for shallow water.  

Rank 6+ for deep water.  

Rank 8+ for SOL ports.

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1 minute ago, The Red Duke said:

Given Sweden is the closest to any other capital ( 2 of them ) I will suggest Dariena.

Eh. Now that wouldn't be historical at all

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Alts have taken the game in an unintended direction and once has grown to every nation the mechanics of the game took a turn I don't think you can turn back from.

There are clans big enough if all of them have alts could pretty much have a large impact on the game if they so desired. Think LV getting sorry a few months to do it more than they did with the new proposed mechanic not a good thought.

Seeing lots of veteran player now seal clubbing weaker nations a lot now more than before when it was deemed in sportsman like so the mindset of the game has changed a lot from honor and respect we started out with to I don't care if the guy just started today or not i'm gonna kill him to climb the leader board. (Actually saw that in global chat veteran guy was bragging about it ).

Can't cap the amount of players in a clan you cant just have a clan based on rank in game so the idea of taxation company being formed by a rank limit isn't feasible either.

Tried that on the flag buying had to attain a certain rank to buy it. With all the alts and there are prob more than ppl realize the idea of taxation of an area controlled by a clan as defined by the Devs to control and determine the taxation is going to be a nightmare given human feelings towards other nations and ppl.

I can see multiple alts being bought to either control or counter this (Good cash influx for the Dev's no doubt) but what will it do for the game. I don't use alts but will have to.

Imagine if all of HRE bought alts and infiltrated the Brits or Danes and the Brits or Danes could do nothing to counter 100 guys voting them down and controlling the taxation could be interesting yea ?

Got to be a better solution than clans controlling the taxation maybe a council made up of the clans in the nation instead then it has half a chance to work.

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1 minute ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Rank isn't exactly a good thing, cause remember a rank 3 can do shallow water battles.  So why shouldn't a bunch of new players that make a war company be able to pull a flag for shallow waters?  Maybe do a tier for the type of port the flag belongs too.  

Rank 3+ for shallow water.  

Rank 6+ for deep water.  

Rank 8+ for SOL ports.

Maybe? But in reality if a port was serious why would a rank 3 be pulling flags. 

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Just now, Bart Smith said:

Or go step forward and make WHOLE map neutral and let the nations( again - war companies pick own Capital) - by expensive charter after they conquer certain region

And ... do where the "unconquerable" coastline enters ?

2 minutes ago, Aventador said:

Eh. Now that wouldn't be historical at all

I know. But Danish territory was "surrendered" to USA in 1900...something ?!

Let's toss a coin ?

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3 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Rank isn't exactly a good thing, cause remember a rank 3 can do shallow water battles.  So why shouldn't a bunch of new players that make a war company be able to pull a flag for shallow waters?  Maybe do a tier for the type of port the flag belongs too.  

Rank 3+ for shallow water.  

Rank 6+ for deep water.  

Rank 8+ for SOL ports.

so rank is a good thing to tie it to? LOL 

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Just now, The Red Duke said:

And ... do where the "unconquerable" coastline enters ?

As started ports each nation get one on coastline

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2 minutes ago, Dragonfire said:

 

Tried that on the flag buying had to attain a certain rank to buy it. With all the alts and there are prob more than ppl realize the idea of taxation of an area controlled by a clan as defined by the Devs to control and determine the taxation is going to be a nightmare given human feelings towards other nations and ppl.

I think you misunderstood. Taxation will coming from the game itself as a given. All ports will be taxed by governments. Stamp tax will be implemented on all transactions. 
If clan gets control over the port they will only be able to change it a bit.
Clans will only be able to make it a little bit higher or lower or zero. 

 

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23 minutes ago, admin said:

the problem of alt buying a flag, placing it first and setting up a pb that you cannot enter as a clan is a problem. it can be countered to an extent but still 

Cooldown for succesful defense only for company that attacked. Only companies can attack ports. Multiple flags can be bought for same port at the same, but first fime - first serve (flag planted first only matters). That way alts won't cause problems. 

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On 02/08/2017 at 4:57 PM, admin said:
  • Updated version: Nations will not give away ports only in certain areas (main coast). The ports in the center of the map will be capturable by war corporations for their nation (but they will be able to tax them)
  • Captureable regions
    • Cuba (with the exception of havana)
    • Jamaica
    • Bahamas
    • Lower parts of florida
    • Hispaniola
    • Turks and Caicos
    • Puerto Rico
    • All minor island chains

Focusing conquest on the middle of the map is not a bad idea, but I'm not sure that I like this setup. For the middle of the map to have action and significance you need to put something valuable there worth fighting over. Thus non-RvR-players' access to the middle of the map and those valuables will again be determined by the success of their war companies, shifting the problem, but not fixing it one bit. Make war companies able to decide how they deal with other war companies and their access, not the access of unincorporated players. Only the taxes levied on unincorporated players should be set by war companies. That is the extent of how their gameplay should interact. 

Take a page out of the book on how you balanced the PvE-server after the wipe. Make more territories neutral. All regions that were not wholly (every port) owned by one nation should be put as belonging to the Neutral faction.  Anyone can build, access, sail and s on there. Companies can own the regions as per your original idea, but they cannot belong to a nation. That way you don't sail to an English port and get ganked by a french player with outpost there. You sail to a Neutral port and accept the risk to get ganked by a French player with outpost there. National ports of course can only be entered in warships by National players of that faction. As a non-RvR-player you will have more safe space and more national ports than a Danish player, but as an RvR-player the imbalance is less significant.

On 02/08/2017 at 4:57 PM, admin said:

Hard/Easy/Medium descriptions will come back to nation selection

  • Pirates/Sweden/DK - very hard
  • VP/France/United States - medium
  • Spain/Britain - easy

You are adding back the ever present problem of imbalances. Despite the exceptional post-wipe situation for Sweden on PvP EU, how are Danish and Swedish war companies going to recruit players when to their company when their nation is smaller. I guess you think this imbalance will be evened by larger nations having more competition as more war companies are formed within large nations whereas small nations maybe only have one or two rival companies. But I assure you that is not how it is going to work. British War companies are going to fight other nations' war companies before they fight their own. People are calling for Civil Wars to be added to the game now, but they are just barking dogs. Once we actually get opportunities for Civil Wars players are going to cease barking and ignore their internal differences and just decide that my war company goes here and yours goes there and we don't interfere with each other.

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1 minute ago, Peter Goldman said:

Cooldown for succesful defense only for company that attacked. Only companies can attack ports. Multiple flags can be bought for same port at the same, but first fime - first serve (flag planted first only matters). That way alts won't cause problems. 

Not sure I follow, but if there is no cool down, WCs will group up to attack a port. I get 3 WC to attack a port one right after another, the defends don't stand a chance. That or I just stick an alt in a WC and pull false flags and hope you don't get what flag is the correct one. 

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