Simulate Territorial Waters Better (i.e. more realistically)

[BK-KnightRider]

The way enemy ships can so easily operate with impunity in hostile/national territorial waters is ridiculous, especially as long as national AI/NPC fleets do nothing proactively to defend their own territorial waters by attacking foreign invaders.  Since the developers removed this function and are not likely to restore here is a way to simulate how unrealistic it is for enemy ships to operate so easily with impunity in enemy territorial waters, even just outside that harbor of the national capital.  This suggestion will also help to significantly reduce if not put an end to the bullies who seal club newbies.

First, whenever players are operating within the territorial waters of their own national capital have the battle entry timer for the defending player from that nation set to 20-30 minutes after an enemy players attacks/tags a player, or enters an existing OW battle, or enters and existing mission battle.  This way defending players who are operating within their own nation's territorial of their capital's county have a reasonable chance of getting help from other players who are in that capital port or anywhere else nearby regardless of where others players from that nation might be within that same county.  This should make it much safer for all players, especially newer/junior players, to do the missions that are necessary for grinding gold, XP, and knowledge.

Second, do the same thing for the territorial waters of the two counties closest to that nation's capital except reduce the timer to 10 minutes.  This can simulate logistical limitations of how the farther one gets from the capital the fewer protective resources there are.

Third, in all other national territorial waters double whatever the battle entry timer is for the defender OW battles that take place in international waters.

Fourth, define the defender as the player/s sailing within their own national territorial waters regardless of who initiates the attack.

Okay, cue the pirates, and any bullies in other nations, to start whining about how this will make it harder for them to go seal clubbing the newbies.

[Cabral]

 Be ready for a bashing from Liquicity 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, BK-KnightRider said:

The way enemy ships can so easily operate with impunity in hostile/national territorial waters is ridiculous, especially as long as national AI/NPC fleets do nothing proactively to defend their own territorial waters by attacking foreign invaders.  Since the developers removed this function and are not likely to restore here is a way to simulate how unrealistic it is for enemy ships to operate so easily with impunity in enemy territorial waters, even just outside that harbor of the national capital.  This suggestion will also help to significantly reduce if not put an end to the bullies who seal club newbies.

First, whenever players are operating within the territorial waters of their own national capital have the battle entry timer for the defending player from that nation set to 20-30 minutes after an enemy players attacks/tags a player, or enters an existing OW battle, or enters and existing mission battle.  This way defending players who are operating within their own nation's territorial of their capital's county have a reasonable chance of getting help from other players who are in that capital port or anywhere else nearby regardless of where others players from that nation might be within that same county.  This should make it much safer for all players, especially newer/junior players, to do the missions that are necessary for grinding gold, XP, and knowledge.

Second, do the same thing for the territorial waters of the two counties closest to that nation's capital except reduce the timer to 10 minutes.  This can simulate logistical limitations of how the farther one gets from the capital the fewer protective resources there are.

Third, in all other national territorial waters double whatever the battle entry timer is for the defender OW battles that take place in international waters.

Fourth, define the defender as the player/s sailing within their own national territorial waters regardless of who initiates the attack.

Okay, cue the pirates, and any bullies in other nations, to start whining about how this will make it harder for them to go seal clubbing the newbies.

The amount of AIs are ridicolous and basically should be limited to traders only. The AIs are only there for hostility grinding and if you want homewaters to be safe - here's an idea: Go make them safe. It's a PvP server - don't cry when people go look for PvP. If you want to do missions in private: do what everyone else does - go out of capitol area and find a remote piece of the carribean to do missions in. Another idea? - go to the gulf of mexico. Another idea? - Go to the PvE server for PvE grinding.

[Tac]

2 hours ago, BK-KnightRider said:

The way enemy ships can so easily operate with impunity in hostile/national territorial waters is ridiculous, especially as long as national AI/NPC fleets do nothing proactively to defend their own territorial waters by attacking foreign invaders.  Since the developers removed this function and are not likely to restore here is a way to simulate how unrealistic it is for enemy ships to operate so easily with impunity in enemy territorial waters, even just outside that harbor of the national capital.  This suggestion will also help to significantly reduce if not put an end to the bullies who seal club newbies.

First, whenever players are operating within the territorial waters of their own national capital have the battle entry timer for the defending player from that nation set to 20-30 minutes after an enemy players attacks/tags a player, or enters an existing OW battle, or enters and existing mission battle.  This way defending players who are operating within their own nation's territorial of their capital's county have a reasonable chance of getting help from other players who are in that capital port or anywhere else nearby regardless of where others players from that nation might be within that same county.  This should make it much safer for all players, especially newer/junior players, to do the missions that are necessary for grinding gold, XP, and knowledge.

Second, do the same thing for the territorial waters of the two counties closest to that nation's capital except reduce the timer to 10 minutes.  This can simulate logistical limitations of how the farther one gets from the capital the fewer protective resources there are.

Third, in all other national territorial waters double whatever the battle entry timer is for the defender OW battles that take place in international waters.

Fourth, define the defender as the player/s sailing within their own national territorial waters regardless of who initiates the attack.

Okay, cue the pirates, and any bullies in other nations, to start whining about how this will make it harder for them to go seal clubbing the newbies.

The age of the new player is dead, long live the age of sailing with a surprise and sailing with impunity.

Play smart or play dead.

[Prater]

5 hours ago, BK-KnightRider said:

The way enemy ships can so easily operate with impunity in hostile/national territorial waters is ridiculous, especially as long as national AI/NPC fleets do nothing proactively to defend their own territorial waters by attacking foreign invaders.  Since the developers removed this function and are not likely to restore here is a way to simulate how unrealistic it is for enemy ships to operate so easily with impunity in enemy territorial waters, even just outside that harbor of the national capital.  This suggestion will also help to significantly reduce if not put an end to the bullies who seal club newbies.

First, whenever players are operating within the territorial waters of their own national capital have the battle entry timer for the defending player from that nation set to 20-30 minutes after an enemy players attacks/tags a player, or enters an existing OW battle, or enters and existing mission battle.  This way defending players who are operating within their own nation's territorial of their capital's county have a reasonable chance of getting help from other players who are in that capital port or anywhere else nearby regardless of where others players from that nation might be within that same county.  This should make it much safer for all players, especially newer/junior players, to do the missions that are necessary for grinding gold, XP, and knowledge.

Second, do the same thing for the territorial waters of the two counties closest to that nation's capital except reduce the timer to 10 minutes.  This can simulate logistical limitations of how the farther one gets from the capital the fewer protective resources there are.

Third, in all other national territorial waters double whatever the battle entry timer is for the defender OW battles that take place in international waters.

Fourth, define the defender as the player/s sailing within their own national territorial waters regardless of who initiates the attack.

Okay, cue the pirates, and any bullies in other nations, to start whining about how this will make it harder for them to go seal clubbing the newbies.

US ships in both the Revolution and the War of 1812 sailed around the British Isles and British colonies in the Caribbean nabbing up British merchant ships.  The idea of territorial waters is kinda not real in an age where information doesn't travel quickly and you can only see 20 miles in any direction.  Let's forget about all the cutting out actions...in "territorial waters."  There's no such thing.  Also, as for logistics, this is one theatre, the Caribbean.  All the ships you see would have enough stores to sail the Caribbean several times over.  There is no logistical limitations in such a small area.  This isn't an army simulator, its a naval simulator.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Prater

[Macjimm]

Good thread.  Informative.  I always wondered about the suggestion that the OP posted.  The responses make sense.  Thanks for starting this and many thanks for the replies.

[BK-KnightRider]

6 hours ago, Bearwall said:

The amount of AIs are ridicolous and basically should be limited to traders only. The AIs are only there for hostility grinding and if you want homewaters to be safe - here's an idea: Go make them safe. It's a PvP server - don't cry when people go look for PvP. If you want to do missions in private: do what everyone else does - go out of capitol area and find a remote piece of the carribean to do missions in. Another idea? - go to the gulf of mexico. Another idea? - Go to the PvE server for PvE grinding.

Good freaking grief.  WHY do you people always resort to the dumb stereotyping to fabricate lame genetic fallacies?  EXACTLY how am I supposedly crying?  Please provide a RATIONAL explanation for exactly what kind of crying language I am supposedly using?  Here's an idea, instead of resorting to childish ad hominem attacks how about trying to produce a RATIONAL counterargument?

The amount of AIs is totally irrelevant.  Since NPC fleets and ships no longer attack us exactly how is their number the least bit relevant to the issue I am addressing and/or my suggestion?  WHY should AIs "be limited to traders only"?  Yep, they are there for grinding hostility, AND for grinding gold and XP and marks.  So friggin what?  EXACTLY how is this the least bit relevant?  Nice try with this lame red herring.

WHERE do I say anything about wanting "homewaters [sic] to be safe"?  Here's an idea:  SAFER =/= Safe     So, nice try with this disingenuous exaggeration to fabricate a lame straw man.

EXACTLY how are small nations and less powerful nations supposed to go out and make their waters "safe" if they are outnumbered 3:1 or 5:1 or 10:1?  Please demonstrate your tactical and strategic by explaining how this is supposed to work.

Yep, it's a PvP server - for a game that is a SIMULATION of sailing ships and tactical naval combat and strategy.  FACT:  National territorial waters were SAFER than international waters.  National territorial waters were SAFER the closer ships were to important ports and shipping lanes.  They were not totally safe, but they were in fact SAFER.

So, once again:  SAFER =/= Safe

WHY in the world should the capital area be the LEAST safe area on the map?  That idea is stupidly unrealistic and totally backwards.  The capital area should be the SAFEST area on the map - because that is how the REAL world worked.  Therefore, that is how this game should work.  EXACTLY what is wrong with people who want PvP having to sail five minutes farther to get to international waters?  EXACTLY what is wrong with people who want PvP having to establish OPs in counties farther away from their capital and thus closer to enemy territory (i.e. the front)?  Frankly, you sound like a bully who wants to only do seal clubbing instead of PvP against more senior skippers who have had time to actually develop some skills.

[BK-KnightRider]

6 hours ago, Tac said:

The age of the new player is dead, long live the age of sailing with a surprise and sailing with impunity.

Play smart or play dead.

I other words, you have nothing. Get back to me if you ever figure out how to produce a cogent counterargument.

[Skully]

Here is my take on safe zones:

Similar to AI fleets coming to your defense. An experienced player knows that an AI fleet is just a small obstacle for attackers. I usually think of them as moving bushes across a battlefield. 

Both give a false sense of security to a new player.

Rather change incentives so it makes no sense for a PvP or RvR player to be there.

To remove the PvP player: score 0 in capital county.

To remove the RvR player: ensure there are other/better choices (conquer the whole map, do smuggling etc).

[BK-KnightRider]

4 hours ago, Prater said:

US ships in both the Revolution and the War of 1812 sailed around the British Isles and British colonies in the Caribbean nabbing up British merchant ships.  The idea of territorial waters is kinda not real in an age where information doesn't travel quickly and you can only see 20 miles in any direction.  Let's forget about all the cutting out actions...in "territorial waters."  There's no such thing.  Also, as for logistics, this is one theatre, the Caribbean.  All the ships you see would have enough stores to sail the Caribbean several times over.  There is no logistical limitations in such a small area.  This isn't an army simulator, its a naval simulator.

LOL  If you don't understand how crucial logistics are to naval operations in general and this game in particular then you understand nothing about long term strategy, logistics, nor this game.  Just because this game simulates most of the logistical concerns in the background does not mean logistics don't matter.  The idea of logistics goes WAY beyond the overly simplistic issue of the supplies/stores the ships carried at sea.  Stop being so unreasonably literal; and nice try with that lame straw man.

Yep, ships back then sailed around other countries territories.  So friggin what?  That does not mean territorial waters were not SAFER than international waters.  The concept of territorial waters was just as valid and real back then as it is now.  The only real difference was the scale of time and distance, and thus effectiveness.  So, nice try with this lame straw man.

WHERE/HOW exactly do I say anyting about "cutting out actions...in 'territorial waters'"?  I don't say anything of the kind so nice try with that dishonest distortion to fabricate a lame straw man.

Your claim that this is "one theatre, the Carribean [sic]," is patently false.  Making false claims like that only shows that you have no credibility.

[BK-KnightRider]

3 hours ago, Macjimm said:

Good thread.  Informative.  I always wondered about the suggestion that the OP posted.  The responses make sense.  Thanks for starting this and many thanks for the replies.

How exactly do the responses make any sense?

[BK-KnightRider]

8 minutes ago, Skully said:

Here is my take on safe zones:

Similar to AI fleets coming to your defense. An experienced player knows that an AI fleet is just a small obstacle for attackers. I usually think of them as moving bushes across a battlefield. 

Both give a false sense of security to a new player.

Rather change incentives so it makes no sense for a PvP or RvR player to be there.

To remove the PvP player: score 0 in capital county.

To remove the RvR player: ensure there are other/better choices (conquer the whole map, do smuggling etc).

These are excellent alternative suggestions that align with another idea I have discussed with other players but have not yet worked out exactly what to post.  So, I made the easier suggestion first.  Thanks, and Bravo Zulu for the thoughtful consideration.

_____

[ed.] Actually, there is a way to provide better balance.  Table top tactical and strategic warfare games have been doing it for decades, and so have PC war games.  Just balance the victory conditions instead of balancing the units (which is an unrealistic and highly subjective myth to chase).  So, for example, if I choose to use my 500 VP (i.e. victory point) ship/ships to attack your 200 VP ship/ships I am choosing to spot you 300 victory points.  Consequently, even if I sink or capture your ship I still lose the battle because I cannot possibly score more than 200 points and your score of 300 is high enough to win even if you do zero damage to my ship.  The ONLY thing I could win in that scenario is bragging rights.  But bragging about winning a battle I should never lose makes no sense to me.  In real warfare commanders lost units but still won engagements, and they lost engagements but still won battles, and they lost battles but still won wars.  Defining victory and defeat solely by sinking/capping/killing or not is too childishly simplistic.

Or, if I choose to use my 300 VP ship to attack your 250 VP ship I am choosing to spot you 50 points.  But because the range of possible scores for this engagement are much closer then several outcomes are possible.  I could win a major victory, or a minor victory, while you have a major loss or a minor loss - OR we could end up with a draw even if I sink or capture your ship.

Yes, I am working on expanding this idea for a formal suggestion.

Edited July 31, 2017 by BK-KnightRider

[mikawa]

10 hours ago, BK-KnightRider said:

This way defending players who are operating within their own nation's territorial of their capital's county have a reasonable chance of getting help from other players who are in that capital port or anywhere else nearby regardless of where others players from that nation might be within that same county.  This should make it much safer for all players, especially newer/junior players, to do the missions that are necessary for grinding gold, XP, and knowledge.

Why even bother for safeness of PvE grinding or trading? If players react quickly it is no problem as it is -- we do not need any longer timers. The problem is atm that nobody cares and some capitals are quite deserted ...

[BK-KnightRider]

Just now, mikawa said:

Why even bother for safeness of PvE grinding or trading? If players react quickly it is no problem as it is -- we do not need any longer timers. The problem is atm that nobody cares and some capitals are quite deserted ...

Except when help/reinforcements are 3 min. 1 sec. or more away the reaction time of other players is totally irrelevant.

Also, I never suggest "safeness" as in making grinding and trading totally safe.  Safer =/= Safe

Frankly, if you need me to explain why even bother with making SOME areas safer than other places - but NOT necessarily safe - then I don't think you will get it, or I don't think you will accept it.

I bet a lot of the people who have quite playing the game care.  For a couple weeks the global server routinely had 325-350 players on at the peak times of the day.  Now we are doing good if we have 250.  Wanna bet if that trend continues?  Wanna do a pool of what the player count will be in two months? 

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, BK-KnightRider said:

Good freaking grief.  WHY do you people always resort to the dumb stereotyping to fabricate lame genetic fallacies?  EXACTLY how am I supposedly crying?  Please provide a RATIONAL explanation for exactly what kind of crying language I am supposedly using?  Here's an idea, instead of resorting to childish ad hominem attacks how about trying to produce a RATIONAL counterargument? One rational counterargument coming up

The amount of AIs is totally irrelevant.  Since NPC fleets and ships no longer attack us exactly how is their number the least bit relevant to the issue I am addressing and/or my suggestion?  WHY should AIs "be limited to traders only"?  Yep, they are there for grinding hostility, AND for grinding gold and XP and marks.  So friggin what?  EXACTLY how is this the least bit relevant?  Nice try with this lame red herring. The amount of AI is relevant in so far the players are able to "hide" alongside the AI and thereby be protected by the magically present AI bots. Totally realistic because in the age of sails there were just SO many battlefleets sailing around with nothing better to do than protect some lone trader.

WHERE do I say anything about wanting "homewaters [sic] to be safe"?  Here's an idea:  SAFER =/= Safe     So, nice try with this disingenuous exaggeration to fabricate a lame straw man. The idea that battles should be opened for magically 30 mins or 1 hour is i.e. asking for safer homewaters. The discussion has been had on numerous occasions and while I believe it is important to be able to get help we also need to be aware that all battles function in the timecompression 1-8 and OW timecompression is 20-1 with a magical boost to OW ship speeds. In most cases the battles would be over when a player hears a cry for help in the magic of the chat window (that didn't exist in the 18th century) and get to the battlespot. As the system is now there's actually the ability for the homefleet to camp a battlesite and then hunt the raiders - again not something that was possible in the 18th century. The current timers are a compromise between the need for an ability to call for help and the dynamic that brings and the need for some realism and possibility for raiding PvP. The old system with Battlescreens were thankfully foregone as they were merely used by raiders as magical cloaking devices so now the raiders has to escape and the homefleet actually has to organize a response.

EXACTLY how are small nations and less powerful nations supposed to go out and make their waters "safe" if they are outnumbered 3:1 or 5:1 or 10:1?  Please demonstrate your tactical and strategic by explaining how this is supposed to work. I play DK/NG on PvP EU and it is in fact one of the smaller nations. It has by no means a safe homewater environment and that is as it should be. Coordination, communication, convoying and grouping up together keeps the traders safe(r) and makes life (a bit) more difficult for raiders. Does this mean that Christiansted is the safest harbor in the carribean? - I can't say. I do however have a very clear impression that raiding in CS waters are a lot more dangerous than say Kingston/Port Royal. The homefleet is better coordinated, more organized, better equipped and usually diligent enough to go hunt for raiders.

Yep, it's a PvP server - for a game that is a SIMULATION of sailing ships and tactical naval combat and strategy.  FACT:  National territorial waters were SAFER than international waters.  National territorial waters were SAFER the closer ships were to important ports and shipping lanes.  They were not totally safe, but they were in fact SAFER. First off - there were no such thing as national waters and international waters. Secondly waters closer to the shores of a nation were safer because patrols regularly patrolled the waters - what I'm arguing is that this responsibility is the players - not some magical AI that goes hunting for those evil players that actually want to do PvP. If you want a safe home environment? - go make it safe.

So, once again:  SAFER =/= Safe

WHY in the world should the capital area be the LEAST safe area on the map?  That idea is stupidly unrealistic and totally backwards.  The capital area should be the SAFEST area on the map - because that is how the REAL world worked.  Therefore, that is how this game should work.  EXACTLY what is wrong with people who want PvP having to sail five minutes farther to get to international waters?  EXACTLY what is wrong with people who want PvP having to establish OPs in counties farther away from their capital and thus closer to enemy territory (i.e. the front)?  Frankly, you sound like a bully who wants to only do seal clubbing instead of PvP against more senior skippers who have had time to actually develop some skills. A nations ability to create a safezone for the traders is directly based on that nations ability to motivate its playerbase to make that area safe. If you are levelling up - do as everyone else does. Go to a remote area and do your missions and don't blame someone else for seeking PvP wherever the largest amount of players gather. ALL capitals are trader hotspots in this game and in ANY war it has been a strategic objective to harm, impede or prevent enemy shipping from transporting goods, materials and ressources. So basically - if you want to be left alone go to a place with a scarcity of population. No one in their right minds go hunting in the gulf of mexico - why? No ones there. No one in their right mind goes hunting along the american seaboard on PvP EU.. Why? - No ones there.

I apologize for making my "rational" reply as comments in your post but it was the easiest way for me to do so. I would request that you took a moment to consider wether you want a more convenient game for you or a realistic game for all? The balance between fun/convenience and realism is a fine one in any game simulating a historical timeframe but in this game the balance between the timesink, the realism and the fun (for all - not just you) is delicate indeed. I've been jumped in my traders right outside Christiansted, I've been killed in my frigate in homewaters and I've been ganked by 12 brits and sunk while my head was symbolically carried through the british possesions in the carribean. This is all part of the game and I will not blame others for taking their pound of fun out of my flesh.. On the contrary - I'll celebrate them for doing so.. Just as long as they accept the same the other way around.

[Aussie Pastor]

Again someone is trying to offer some sound reason to stop Starter Capitals from being blockaded.

The thing is it is a game, the only problem is that it's still in Alpha/Beta Phase.

There is a playing style of reporting a bug or exploit to the Devs to fix it.

We have found in the past that an exploit used by one faction it's not punished to the other.

This creates an "us and them"attitude. When really we are all in the same boat (pun intended)

We are not this Group or this nation or even this clan. 

We are still all TESTERS.

We lose player everyday for people see it as let's play the game and win.

Others are still trying it out, then there is the guys the will look at playing this in X weeks time.

How would you be starting to play the game now with being "one ported" or having your capital blockaded?

Time for the Devs to get serious.

1/ close down the PvE server.

2/ have a good strong PvE area around the Starter Capital.

3/ separate and define the playing styles of Sovereign Nations & Pirate Faction.

4/ get rid of Victory/Conquest Marks.

5/ make the advantage of capturing certain areas is for different goods

6/ Pirates should not be allowed to capture Regional capitals as that's for Sovereign Nations(Lineship Battles)

7/ Allow Pirate to Plunder other Ports eg Cyo but not is regional Capital (4 Rates or lower)

8/ the plundered port is the Pirates for 48 hrs, then reverts back.

By implementing some of these basic game play ideas that I have heard from experience MMO players the Pirates will continue to be focused on OW PVP but still give them PB.

Going to play a Sovereign Nation then Gets them to do a PB with Lineships.

Pirates can still capture Lineships but miss out in Lineships PB. NB// you have to make some differences in the game, if not then get rid of Nation change the look of the Sandbox Map and call us Zogs, blogs and xocks or what ever.

But of you are going to try to keep it where it is, plus try to have some resemblance of realism. Then make a clear and defined distinction between Nations and the Pirates.

If not you will never cultivate a RvR game and you can just make NA Legends so it Red v Blue.

[Prater]

6 hours ago, BK-KnightRider said:

LOL  If you don't understand how crucial logistics are to naval operations in general and this game in particular then you understand nothing about long term strategy, logistics, nor this game.  Just because this game simulates most of the logistical concerns in the background does not mean logistics don't matter.  The idea of logistics goes WAY beyond the overly simplistic issue of the supplies/stores the ships carried at sea.  Stop being so unreasonably literal; and nice try with that lame straw man.

Yep, ships back then sailed around other countries territories.  So friggin what?  That does not mean territorial waters were not SAFER than international waters.  The concept of territorial waters was just as valid and real back then as it is now.  The only real difference was the scale of time and distance, and thus effectiveness.  So, nice try with this lame straw man.

WHERE/HOW exactly do I say anyting about "cutting out actions...in 'territorial waters'"?  I don't say anything of the kind so nice try with that dishonest distortion to fabricate a lame straw man.

Your claim that this is "one theatre, the Carribean [sic]," is patently false.  Making false claims like that only shows that you have no credibility.

Actually, I would say you are the one who doesn't understand that this takes place in the 18th and 19th centuries and not 1914 or 1940.  There is no radio.  There is no radar.  There is no help unless someone happens upon you.  Heck you can get very close to a ship without knowing its true nationality.  The world moves very slowly.  Hence the part about cutting out actions.  Ships were cut out from ports, precisely because of the "fog of war," even around "territorial waters," that you want absolutely gone when around "territorial waters."

This is also one small area of the world.  Ships can sail all around it and if need be put in for supplies at the different ports.  One ship can cause havoc among hundreds of enemies and in enemy territorial waters.  Tell me, when you see a half dozen of sails on the horizon, who is your enemy?  You can only go after one so who do you go for?  And you can't click on them and see their name or nationality.

 

P.s.  It is spelled Caribbean, not Carribean, so stop with the grammar nazi crap.  You need to calm down.  And your claim at strawman is just an attempt to ignore my points.  Well done.  There are several rational responses here but you continue with the irrational dismissals and the online equivalent of yelling.  Bearwall has a perfect answer.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Prater

[Macjimm]

11 hours ago, Prater said:

The idea of territorial waters is kinda not real in an age where information doesn't travel quickly and you can only see 20 miles in any direction.
This isn't an army simulator, its a naval simulator.

 

14 hours ago, Tac said:

Play smart or play dead.

 

14 hours ago, Bearwall said:

The amount of AIs are ridicolous and basically should be limited to traders only.
If you want homewaters to be safe - here's an idea: Go make them safe. It's a PvP server - don't cry when people go look for PvP.
If you want to do missions in private: do what everyone else does - go out of capitol area and find a remote piece of the carribean to do missions in.
Another idea? - go to the gulf of mexico.
Another idea? - Go to the PvE server for PvE grinding.

To KnightRider,

In response to your question:

I’ve often felt that I should be safe near in the home waters.  Having foreign ships and pirates swarming around the huge fleets of British warships within sight of the capital port for my nation seemed very gamey.  So your post resonated. But ....

I paused to consider that Naval Action is not a sailing simulator.  I wish it was but it is first and foremost it is an MMO with the main focus on combat.  And on the PvP servers the mechanics are designed to channel players into fighting each other, even at the expense of what would be feasible or believable in reality.

The idea of having a safe area is appealing to me but I appreciated the comments because they made me think that expecting the seas close to a friendly capital to be free combat areas may be grossly unrealistic.   It makes sense that in the age of sail with the lack of communication and the short sight distances it would be incredibly difficult to ensure the safety of any ships that were sailing without a close escort.  The game is seems unrealistic just from the sheer volume of NPCs (especially large ship fleets) that are whizzing around everywhere.

And considering that it is an MMO the content is what the players create. 
You can be safe if you can find players to sail as your escort.

[Prater]

Well, I would say Naval Action, as a game, has a lot unrealistic and that isn't a bad thing, and other things that simulate, but can't be a full simulation because it is a game.  You have to balance between realism and gameplay, between historically inspired and arcade.  Time compression is one of them.  This allows both attackers and defenders to get into more combat that is realistic.  It allows hunters into quick action, it allows defenders to organize "revenge fleets" or to run towards each other for protection.  Teamspeak and nation chat act like radio, this is a gameplay concession.  Being able to click on a ship from 20 to 30 miles away and see who it is and what nationality is and what ship class is more than the capabilities of radar.  Good/bad, this does allow us to run after enemies and not pick that one ship to chase after only to find out it is a friendly or an ai.  Again, another gameplay concession.  Some gameplay concessions are necessary, but we don't have to concede on everything against realism.

 

P.s.  In the right conditions, a Surprise can travel 830km in 30 minutes.  That's the distance between St. George's, Grenada in the Windward Islands to Coral bay, Danish Virgin Islands.  Or, it is Isla Beata, off the coast of Hispaniola to Christiansted, St Croix

Edited July 31, 2017 by Prater

[JobaSet]

The so call revenge Fleets worked to keep waters some what safer.  TO many cried, well like 20,They could not go into enemy water with out getting killed after attacking a Ship go figure.  It the Same as someone breaking into your house or holding up a Store.  You Shot them dead.  And then listen to the News of someone Saying they didn't Have to kill him he was a good kid. 

[Vernon Merrill]

Revenge fleets nearly drove off the ONLY players who dont sail tubs in lines shooting sails for dots on a map...   

[Prater]

6 minutes ago, JobaSet said:

The so call revenge Fleets worked to keep waters some what safer.  TO many cried, well like 20,They could not go into enemy water with out getting killed after attacking a Ship go figure.  It the Same as someone breaking into your house or holding up a Store.  You Shot them dead.  And then listen to the News of someone Saying they didn't Have to kill him he was a good kid. 

Ya, you haven't read a thing.  If you want a ww1 or ww2 game, there is a game called world of warships or atlantic fleet.  Territorial waters is a modern idea.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Prater

[Liq]

(i.e. more realistically)

Your suggestion of making battles open for half an hour or even longer will eventually kill off any pvp, as pvp can only be found in enemy waters - Don't kid yourself by saying you should sail in the middle of no nations waters and expect to find anything. There is no reason to be there for noone.

But hey maybe that's just me - I'm waiting for Arena at this point anyway. Average player mindset of only engaging when 2-3x the numbers is really getting on my nerves. "Oh hey a surprise! I'm also in a surprise! I could engage him now and have a nice duel! Oooor cry for help in nation chat and wait til I've got a few frigate's backup!"

Gameplay at the moment:

 

 

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, JobaSet said:

The so call revenge Fleets worked to keep waters some what safer.  TO many cried, well like 20,They could not go into enemy water with out getting killed after attacking a Ship go figure.  It the Same as someone breaking into your house or holding up a Store.  You Shot them dead.  And then listen to the News of someone Saying they didn't Have to kill him he was a good kid. 

The question is not about revengefleets but rather about realism. Last I checked this was a game set in the age of sails with some emphasis on realism - This means no hiding in battlescreen (BS cloaking devices has thankfully been killed off) and no you cannot jump on you magic carpet and fly to a battlelocation where - had the OW timecompression and battleinstance timecompression matched the battle would be long over when you arrived. 

And it is bullshit to exclaim that "territorial waters should be safe" - they weren't in the 18th century and I will not go into the plethora of reasons why they weren't (like no phone, no internet and no means of mass communications among many, many others) but merely point to the fact that the convoysystem was created by the dutch to prevent raiders right outside Amsterdam from taking prizes and later adopted by every single warfaring nation in the world - and with good reason. You want to be safe? - Make it so. 

[Vernon Merrill]

Liquicity, do you think craftable mods would help this mindset?   I too wonder what it would take to change people's mind-set about risking ships...   Its maddening.