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2 minutes ago, Prater said:

You forget speed was changed.  Conni can't get to 15 knots even if it uses every speed mod out there.

it gets to 14.92 with all the mods. Its pretty mighty close :) 

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1 minute ago, koltes said:

it gets to 14.92 with all the mods. Its pretty mighty close :) 

Yes, with all the mods.  So a super expensive super frigate that costs millions and have nothing else going for it can get there.  Then lets see the Endymion with the same thing, the sailing profile will be so warped that it will have a 1.7 knot cushion at 135 and be several knots faster at 60 degrees.  So like a Surprise will outrun an Endymion, an Endymion will outrun a Coni.

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Endy could do with a small turn rate buff as others have said. Making her turn like Surprise or Frigate would make her OP indeed. 

I'd be happy to see her, Trincomalee, and Indefatigable have similar turn rates of about 2.85-3.15, with Trinc and Endy being at the higher end of that scale. I think that would balance these ships nicely between the fast turning smaller frigates, and the more powerful and larger frigate/4th rates.

Sailing profile on the Endymion is meh. She could use a *slight* buff, but too much could easily make her OP if she threatens a Surprise or any other fast upwind frigate at 90* or more upwind.

Maybe make her profile slightly better since she was historically recorded doing 11 knots upwind (of course not close hauled at 45* like a lot of people seem to think "upwind" means) yet I struggled to get my Cedar/Cedar with Bovenwinds, Gazelle, Crooked, Treatise on Staysails, and Art of Proper Cargo distritubtion Endy up to 10.0 knots on an upwind course (and yes, I fiddled with the rudder to get the best speed on this point of sail and gave her plenty of time to accelerate). This was done before the mods to speed were nerfed, so her speed on the card would have been well above 17 knots if the cap wasn't in place.

311310_screenshots_20170710200505_1.thumb.jpg.209a20dc2110bffb93e39e4707a9eda8.jpg

Just about as close hauled as I felt she could go without becoming too sluggish:

311310_screenshots_20170710200332_1.thumb.jpg.4c0500144419e8997bf4e6215fdabc23.jpg

Not at all horrible, but remember, this is with the upwind speed mods on board. I'll have to do more testing to see how she does currently with nerfs to speed mods. 

Excuse the poor graphics, I finally got a good graphics card and can't believe what I was missing out on, now looking back at my old screenshots is almost painful. :lol:

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6 hours ago, Prater said:

Yes, with all the mods.  So a super expensive super frigate that costs millions and have nothing else going for it can get there.  Then lets see the Endymion with the same thing, the sailing profile will be so warped that it will have a 1.7 knot cushion at 135 and be several knots faster at 60 degrees.  So like a Surprise will outrun an Endymion, an Endymion will outrun a Coni.

Yeah mate. Its called the speed dedicated builds. That glass cannon will be able to run from same connies but decimate anything smaller. Like Endy

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1 hour ago, Willis PVP2 said:

Endy could do with a small turn rate buff as others have said. Making her turn like Surprise or Frigate would make her OP indeed. 

I'd be happy to see her, Trincomalee, and Indefatigable have similar turn rates of about 2.85-3.15, with Trinc and Endy being at the higher end of that scale. I think that would balance these ships nicely between the fast turning smaller frigates, and the more powerful and larger frigate/4th rates.

Sailing profile on the Endymion is meh. She could use a *slight* buff, but too much could easily make her OP if she threatens a Surprise or any other fast upwind frigate at 90* or more upwind.

Maybe make her profile slightly better since she was historically recorded doing 11 knots upwind (of course not close hauled at 45* like a lot of people seem to think "upwind" means) yet I struggled to get my Cedar/Cedar with Bovenwinds, Gazelle, Crooked, Treatise on Staysails, and Art of Proper Cargo distritubtion Endy up to 10.0 knots on an upwind course (and yes, I fiddled with the rudder to get the best speed on this point of sail and gave her plenty of time to accelerate). This was done before the mods to speed were nerfed, so her speed on the card would have been well above 17 knots if the cap wasn't in place.

311310_screenshots_20170710200505_1.thumb.jpg.209a20dc2110bffb93e39e4707a9eda8.jpg

Just about as close hauled as I felt she could go without becoming too sluggish:

311310_screenshots_20170710200332_1.thumb.jpg.4c0500144419e8997bf4e6215fdabc23.jpg

Not at all horrible, but remember, this is with the upwind speed mods on board. I'll have to do more testing to see how she does currently with nerfs to speed mods. 

Excuse the poor graphics, I finally got a good graphics card and can't believe what I was missing out on, now looking back at my old screenshots is almost painful. :lol:

You doing this wrong mate. Throw away upwind mods. Try with studs and treaties of square ;) then try again upwind.

Look at your wind indicator. Your square rigs are still catching lots of wind. If you buff those you will get even higher speed despite negative to stays, which are weak on Endy anyway

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3 minutes ago, koltes said:

Yeah mate. Its called the speed dedicated builds. That glass cannon will be able to run from same connies but decimate anything smaller. Like Endy

Or the Endy can run at 60 and 75 and get away from that glass Coni.  That was the entire purpose of the Constitution, destroy any frigate and run from anything larger.  The only problem is the speed meta, although reduced, hasn't been reduced enough.  22% max should be 11%.

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8 minutes ago, Prater said:

Or the Endy can run at 60 and 75 and get away from that glass Coni.  That was the entire purpose of the Constitution, destroy any frigate and run from anything larger.  The only problem is the speed meta, although reduced, hasn't been reduced enough.  22% max should be 11%.

Disagree in general. Meaning that reducing 22% to 11% is again make a single mod having same affect on all ships. You take the gazelle and mount on SOL and Reno. Both will get 2% speed buff. This is where the core of the problem is.

2% speed buff should be base and applied by each ships unique speed coefficient, which means same mod will give less speed bonus to SOLs than it gives to fast ships. 

Below is just an example based on 3 perma mods. Coefficients needs to be lower and lined up with best possible upgrades on the fastest ship not going above specific speed. Like Reno up to 16kn and Endy up to 16.5 for example. All other ships lined up accordingly using those two as benchmark. Then speed cap can be removed

nlte6NJ.png

Edited by koltes
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11 minutes ago, koltes said:

Disagree in general. Meaning that reducing 22% to 11% is again make a single mod having same affect on all ships. You take the gazelle and mount on SOL and Reno. Both will get 2% speed buff. This is where the core of the problem is.

2% speed buff should be base and applied by each ships unique speed coefficient, which means same mod will give less speed bonus to SOLs than it gives to fast ships. 

 

11% means Endymion hits 15 with a cushion of .2 and the coni can only hit 13.5 max.  It is how the cap should be.  The cap shouldn't be a constant, a  15 knot cap, but a percentage cap of you can't get faster than this percentage from your base stat.  This would kill the current speed meta, the over reliance on and utter necessity of speed mods and skills, preserve the historical speed of fast ships, and still allow customization.  It kills several birds with one stone.  It lowers the costs of ships, skills, and modules, which lowers the grind.  It lowers the grind of getting into frigate pvp.  It lowers the time between losing a ship and replacing it and getting back into pvp.  And it kills the glass cannon speed meta of Fir fir over moduled/skilled Conis hitting 15 knots which is ridiculous.  The Coni doesn't need nerfed, the Endymion doesn't need significant buffs beyond making its turn a bit better (2.6-3 probably).  What needs done away with is the speed meta.

Edited by Prater
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I think for thendynamics of the game the cealing of max possible speed should be 16kn not 15kn. You might argue that this is less historical, but my point is that its more balanced with other mechanics.

If you want ships sailing slower then cannons needs to reload slower and yards and the rudders needs to turn slower too. Else she will be taking 2-3 extra broadsides that she should have. Or buff speed ceiling to 16 and then the gap will be balanced

 

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16 minutes ago, koltes said:

cannons needs to reload slower and yards and the rudders needs to turn slower too

and dispersion of shot and vertical training of guns also reviewed, agreed entirely.

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7 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

and dispersion of shot and vertical training of guns also reviewed, agreed entirely.

Or just have slightly buff max speed (16kn) and everything will remain balanced while staying dynamic :P 

Edited by koltes
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16 knot would be fine, but I'd rather have it be a percentage, and I don't know that 16 knots fixes all the balance issues as you claim.  With a constant cap we could easily get into the same boat as the last patches and one similar to what we are in now (nerfed but not completely fixed).  22% is too much still.  As long as it is 22% the speed meta will be somewhat present.  It means you must sail Surpise, Renomee, Endymion, or small ship, or at least a fir/fir ship otherwise you are screwed if you venture out alone.  The Coni did well on its own, escaping several blockades and pursuits of lighter and smaller ships, with live oak framing, white oak planking, and diagonal riders (= slow boat in Naval Action).

The reload rate isn't too terrible for the larger cannons, 40 seconds longer reload for the 12s and up and they would be comparable to real life with a decently trained crew.  Yards turn fine now, it doesn't take much to turn a yard, except against the wind, but that is more of a system than the devs want for Naval Action.  

Edited by Prater
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