why bringing ship capture back?

[Hodo]

4 hours ago, Ink said:

We really believe that it will make 5th rate pvp easier and ease some hurdles for players who are just starting. Captured ships won't match the options the crafted vessels can provide

Why should 5th rate PVP be easier?  

Sorry but people need to lower their bar and learn to sail smaller ships if they cant afford 5th rates from the market.   

This is stupid on a whole new level.

[Lord Amplify of Key West]

I think it's a good change for the newer players

[Hodo]

2 minutes ago, amplify said:

I think it's a good change for the newer players

We all know that isnt who is going to benefit from this change.

[Captain Lust]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

There are two overlapping mechanics that I really wish we had here, which would largely alleviate the concerns and facilitate the motivation for making NPCs capturable:

Like others, I'd like to see ship buy contracts. I would also like to see Admiralty ship buy contracts, where  crafters built ships for the Admiralty for decent money, and the only NPCs you see on the open ocean were player-produced. Those NPC ships could then be capturable, and meaningful since they were player produced. Also, I'd like to see NPC traders actually moving meaningful goods, and if a nation's crafters didn't supply their nation with trader ships that the Admiralty requested then ports would start to empty of goods, etc. Therefore, raiding NPCs would be economically meaningful, as well as making captured ships useful.

A man can dream, right?

[CatSwift]

1 hour ago, AxIslander said:

The answer should be Make ships/cannons cheaper and make a PvP area, so that PvPers can easily find what they want. 

That's what they've been doing.  Medium cannons are free by PvE grind. Watching CombatNews tells you where the action is. Now NPC ship capture provides cheap ships.  So entry level PvP is now extremely cheap, and "maxed out" PvP is now extremely expensive. As it should be.

[Wind Catcher]

1 hour ago, Hodo said:

Why should 5th rate PVP be easier?  

Sorry but people need to lower their bar and learn to sail smaller ships if they cant afford 5th rates from the market.   

This is stupid on a whole new level.

Easily accessible to new players is a very important goal Developers need to focus on. They need to loosen the screws a bit, game is too tight for any newcomer. For you on the other hand it's easy and you give no **** about population and game health. Saying it's stupid is like throwing rock in the dark room expecting to hit someone. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Wind Catcher

[Lord Amplify of Key West]

58 minutes ago, Hodo said:

We all know that isnt who is going to benefit from this change.

uhm why not ? 

 

[Wind Catcher]

24 minutes ago, CatSwift said:

That's what they've been doing.  Medium cannons are free by PvE grind. Watching CombatNews tells you where the action is. Now NPC ship capture provides cheap ships.  So entry level PvP is now extremely cheap, and "maxed out" PvP is now extremely expensive. As it should be.

It's not there yet, this NPC ship capture will almost put it in place where it will feel great. Only, last small detail are cannons and their cost. Tune them and we got everything just right. On top of these 2 problems we have time sink that multiplies each problem by 10. So, Developers need to fix gun cost and availability (read my recent suggestion) and tune OS travel speeds. It still takes too long for any casual player to sail around. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Wind Catcher

[Vernon Merrill]

3 hours ago, Wind Catcher said:

Oh, you are one of those guys who drives a Truck to compensate for what is missing. Well good for you with your activity numbers.  No need to assume others are noobs, all I know is I am here from day 1 like most of you I hope. 5th rate- 4th rates make no difference as limitations on capped ships will make them useless vs player built. 

P.S. all these negative reviews on Steam are clearly a major community fault, as they do suggest damaging ideas and oppose the ones that would benefit Developers and this game. In the end crippling development all together. I just hope Developers do not listen to any of us and stay firm with their decisions. Forum is for brainstorming and not for game development planning. 

Well lets see....  You've so far accused everyone who doesnt agree with you of being "immature" and now, apparently, of having a small penis....  

I would venture that maybe its YOU who is overcompensating for something.  Maybe its that big giant chip on your shoulder?

 

[Prater]

1 hour ago, Wind Catcher said:

It's not there yet, this NPC ship capture will almost put it in place where it will feel great. Only, last small detail are cannons and their cost. Tune them and we got everything just right. On top of these 2 problems we have time sink that multiplies each problem by 10. So, Developers need to fix gun cost and availability (read my recent suggestion) and tune OS travel speeds. It still takes too long for any casual player to sail around. 

It doesn't take far to long to travel around.  You don't need to travel around.  Find a good spot with a lot of activity and stick to it.  You don't need to sail 1000 miles every day, or even 1/3rd of that.  If you think you do you are fooling yourself and need to readjust how you think about what you need to do in Naval Action.  Open an outpost in the Lesser Antilles, Central America, or Windward Passage and you can usually find pvp relatively quick without having to spend a lot of time sailing.  That, or wait for Legends to come out and play that instead.

And you also don't need to mess with cannon prices.  Use mediums.  They are cheaper, lighter, reload faster, take less crew, and do more damage than longs.  I use mediums and they are just fine.

TLDR: Some of the things you mention require an adjustment in your thinking.  You don't need longs, use mediums instead unless you want to pay the expensive price for longs.  You don't need to sail all around and spend a lot of time sailing, find a good place where you can find pvp quick and stick there.  There is no reason to sail all around unless you are a trader or you want a change in scenery, but those are your choices, and not something you need to do.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Prater

[Anolytic]

Instead of bringing back capture ships, increase significantly the number of cannons you loot from sunken ships. Every ship sunk could give at least a few guns, and some around a half set.

[Hodo]

1 hour ago, Wind Catcher said:

Easily accessible to new players is a very important goal Developers need to focus on. They need to loosen the screws a bit, game is too tight for any newcomer. For you on the other hand it's easy and you give no **** about population and game health. Saying it's stupid is like throwing rock in the dark room expecting to hit someone. 

First I can say that it isnt that hard to get into PVP currently.   

Just people have set their goals to high.   Maybe it is because I come from Mortal Online and EvE online where nothing is handed to you on a silver platter.    Even in EvE I do things in a small cheap ship, and I am sitting on a billions of ISK in that game.  I dont need a Titan to go have fun, I can do it just fine in a Probe or a some cheap cruiser or destroyer.    Here I do the same thing, I sail around in a cheap ship.   You can have a LOT of fun in a good 6th rate like a Snow, or Rattlesnake (if they ever put it back) and a Navy Brig or Mercury.   

But people always want BIG slow ships that are boring as heck to sail and handle like continental drift.  

 

EDIT-

One thing about this plan... I wont have to build as many parts now.  I will just break down everything I capture and then make MORE money.  

Edited July 26, 2017 by Hodo

[Hethwill]

2 hours ago, Wind Catcher said:

It's not there yet, this NPC ship capture will almost put it in place where it will feel great. Only, last small detail are cannons and their cost. Tune them and we got everything just right. On top of these 2 problems we have time sink that multiplies each problem by 10. So, Developers need to fix gun cost and availability (read my recent suggestion) and tune OS travel speeds. It still takes too long for any casual player to sail around. 

Takes time for a newcomer to get used to the rhythm of the game. Same as jumping from a jet air sim and suddenly dropping to a 1940 prop. Everything will feel sloooooow.

That is the very first thing that every newcomer must be ready for in the OW. It is not a rush and go, not a pop and out, not a ego bam. It is a deliberate slow pace mimic of age of sail.

Also... planning. It is a game that requires planning, not sailing aimlessly. You plan your cruises if you wish efficiency

 

[Slamz]

3 hours ago, amplify said:

uhm why not ? 

Because -- barring some critical part of this plan that we are missing -- it will mostly be used by veterans who realize they can save a whole lot of time and trouble by just capturing ships.

Knowing the devs, my guess is they are going to make captured NPC ships be something like 1 permanent slot and 2-3 knowledge slots, which frankly is plenty. I would not spend thousands of labor hours and all that hauling and click-cost to build the same damn ship with just a couple more slots.

Even if it's a ship with no slots at all, I can still see myself primarily using those ships and only rarely using a custom ship (mainly if my job today is the tackler, I might go with a custom speed Surprise or something while everyone else is in stolen NPC Connies).

Suicide attacks would be the best use for them. Oh look, it's a group of 6 enemies, including a Victory. We're going to kamikaze them with 5 NPC connies and our one and only goal is to sink that Victory.

We sink the Victory and lose 5 stolen Connies = we win. Our cost in this was really just the time it takes to capture a connie, which is way less then the time it takes to MAKE one (what with hauling and earning cash and all that).

If those were custom Connies, that would not be a good exchange rate, or a sustainable plan for us due to labor hour cost.

The only way I see this being maybe-okay is if captured NPC ships are really crippled somehow but then as someone else said, that just turns it into a false feature that no sensible player would use. I don't see a middle road between "good feature, would use it, incidentally ruins ship building and cost/risk analysis" and "bad feature, would not use".

Edited July 26, 2017 by Slamz

[CaptVonGunn]

8 hours ago, z4ys said:

 but history has proven to us:

Free ships = more griefing + trolling +exploiting

 

everything thats free gets abused.

- free money at character start = exploited

- free basic cutter = exploited to grief / troll people

- free or to cheap shop ships = used as throw away fire ships in pbs or screening ships

 

With these changes now everyone can capture a fleet of 4rates and jump a pb party without the fear of losses

or tag/ dealy them before it. I mean as we did it to the brits we had something to lose. now we just can do it again with captured ships and fear nothing

maybe the cannons, but i am sure they will have their medium cannons on it so who cares

to me it doesnt look well-conceived regarding the longterm effects

Easy enough to fix.. NPC ships should have ZERO Module slots and the same Explosion restrictions they put on the Basic Cutter...

[Skully]

10 hours ago, Ink said:

We really believe that it will make 5th rate pvp easier and ease some hurdles for players who are just starting. Captured ships won't match the options the crafted vessels can provide

22 minutes ago, CaptVonGunn said:

Easy enough to fix.. NPC ships should have ZERO Module slots and the same Explosion restrictions they put on the Basic Cutter...

I believe the aim is to ensure they get them PvP ships easier, not PvE ships.

I still think reimbursement for sunk ships has the least side effects. It will in fact make crafters very happy, because it would require crafting of new ships.

[CaptVonGunn]

Just now, Skully said:

I believe the aim is to ensure they get them PvP ships easier, not PvE ships.

I still think reimbursement for sunk ships has the least side effects. It will in fact make crafters very happy, because it would require crafting of new ships.

I jut wish we could capture Trade ships.. But they only stay in your fleet until you dock at a NAtional Port.. then they get broken down for parts .. This way you can care all your ill gotten gains on a long raid.. without having to ave a ship take up space in port

[Hodo]

35 minutes ago, CaptVonGunn said:

Easy enough to fix.. NPC ships should have ZERO Module slots and the same Explosion restrictions they put on the Basic Cutter...

Then they will still be used as ram boats, or rage boarders.  It isnt hard to rake a SoL in a Connie and even easier in something like a surprise or a frigate.  

Just saying that it wont help anything.  

Capturing trade ships will also be nice, but exploitable.  Why should I bother risking sailing anything other than a capped trade ship instead of sailing a decent trade ship.   I can cap a pretty good LGV that is only going to haul cargo, and put it in a fleet and make millions.

[Eyesore]

How do you sustain an economy if everything is a free throw-away?

Like others have said already, when capturing npc's, crafting has almost no use anymore. I'm a crafter myself, I would also sail mostly on the capped inferior ships (nothing to lose, and the savings in time and money definately make up for an extra loss or inferiority of those ships). Specialized ships I'll only use when the situation calls for it (in a group in ow it probably doesn't even make much difference anyway).

Perhaps make the captured npc's heavily damaged? , as in: a crafter (with sufficient level) can rebuild it (perhaps less hours needed, having to add 75% (random number here) of the buildingmaterials, can't change anything ( the trim, wood, amount of modules or skillslots)). New players can still get a cheaper ship, economy is still needed, crafters still have work.

About the fireship-arguement: ever tried to succesfully blow up in the middle of an enemy group? It is a non-issue as far as i'm concerned. Keep your distance if you spot a potential fireship.

[Quineloe]

11 hours ago, Ink said:

We really believe that it will make 5th rate pvp easier and ease some hurdles for players who are just starting. Captured ships won't match the options the crafted vessels can provide

 

How about you make it reasonably cheap instead to build ships up to 4th rate and not have a Victory cost slightly more than an Essex to build besides the permit?

it's absurd one whole day in the Shipyard now builds ONE fifth rate where before 10.0 those hours built a fifth rate with 5 duras. That is the reason you've extinguished PVP, it takes way too much effort to replace ships now because they cost pretty much the same as before, but now we need to replace after one sinking and not 4-5.

You want an economy? stop providing us with an unlimited supply of free ships for easy pickings on the open world. Especially now that you've taken one of the biggest advantages of crafted ships (multiple durability) away.

So here's what you need to do: Slash planks and frame part requirements for fifth rates by 50%, slash labor hours by 75%. Suddenly we can build the throwaway ships in quantities that encourage PVP in them and you don't need to add that mechanic back anymore.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Quineloe

[Quineloe]

6 hours ago, Hodo said:

Why should 5th rate PVP be easier?  

Sorry but people need to lower their bar and learn to sail smaller ships if they cant afford 5th rates from the market.   

This is stupid on a whole new level.

I'm pretty sure if you were to put this to a poll, you'd get like 95% disagree. 6th rates and below are not interesting to most players.

It's just fifth rates. Those ships were so abundantly common back in the day, it's perfectly valid for them to be the main PVP ships of high level players.

[Quineloe]

5 hours ago, CatSwift said:

That's what they've been doing.  Medium cannons are free by PvE grind. Watching CombatNews tells you where the action is. Now NPC ship capture provides cheap ships.  So entry level PvP is now extremely cheap, and "maxed out" PvP is now extremely expensive. As it should be.

Watching combat news at best tells you where the mission gankers are right now. I guess 90% of the PVP kills I see on combat news are mission ganks.  Certainly not a good idea to find action unless you enjoy shooting bow chasers at a Renommee or Surprise for half an hour.

[Vllad]

1 hour ago, Quineloe said:

Watching combat news at best tells you where the mission gankers are right now. I guess 90% of the PVP kills I see on combat news are mission ganks.  

You and I are not playing the same game. 

[Fargo]

10 hours ago, Ink said:

We really believe that it will make 5th rate pvp easier and ease some hurdles for players who are just starting. Captured ships won't match the options the crafted vessels can provide

Seriously, fix the real issues that keep people from PvPing or playing the game at all, instead of trying to compensate with nonsense like this. And even if those ships really are too expensive, why not simply balance ship cost instead?! 

[Cimbi]

8 hours ago, Slamz said:

I keep telling people that they shouldn't worry so much about ship knowledge slots. That a good player in a 0 knowledge Connie will beat a mediocre player in a 5 knowledge Connie every time. Similarly, 3 people in Surprises with 0 knowledge slots will beat 1 person in a Surprise with 5 knowledge slots (or in a Connie, for that matter).

I think people spend way too much time trying to grind out knowledge slots when it's a very rare PvP battle that is so close that a couple of knowledge slots would make a difference. They are nice-to-haves. They are not mandatory. Same for permanents. Especially now that speed buffs have been greatly reduced, because that was the #1 most important knowledge and permanents you needed. (Speed slots still help but now I'm probably going 5% faster rather than 20% faster.)

Just as a for-example:

In PvE I can stack up reload slots and it's great.

In PvP I am more frequently waiting on maneuvers, so I find stacking up reloads to be questionable. Most people don't just sail broadside to broadside and trade shots as fast as reload happens. If they are nose towards me (because they know I'm loaded and want to shoot) then I need to maneuver and hold until I get a better shot, thus wasting my stacked reload bonuses.

PvP doesn't benefit from knowledge slots quite like PvE does (with the exception of speed mods).

To put it another way, if my choice is a 3/5 custom Connie that costs thousands of labor hours and lots of hauling to build, or a 0/0 Connie that I capped in 5 minutes on the OW, I can't imagine why I would ever build a Connie again.

We will build some custom tacklers and everyone else will be in captured ships.

You are comparing extrem situation.You should comper same players with same numbers and in this situation, a 3/5 ship is much better than a ship without slots.(I don't do any pve mission, I don't care rare upgrades and I'm not wasting my real life with this kind of shi..., boring, idi.., fake content like ship knowledge. )That's why if they remove ship knowledge I will prefer crafted ship if they won't remove it I will prefer captured ship.