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Declaration of Victory and the Terms


Koltes

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6 minutes ago, HoneyBaddger said:

Are you talking about me? Do you have any proof of this? More accusations from a dying nation! I find this simply offensive and I am going to report you for this abuse! You have no evidence to back up what you are saying. I think that is a punishable offence. I am flattered that the US still thinks I can repeatedly control them through my words, but I have been in US nation chat since I left. I guess I am still a legend over there ehh? You guys still talk about me no-stop it seems, but I don't give a flying rats ass about the US nation. We are now focused on other people that WILL give us fights. Have you been attacked by BLACK or BLOOD since this "so called alt" has been around? NO!!!! NO!!! You havent, it could be an alt from another nation for all you know.!Your words and no evidence to back it up about this guy reporting US positions is just a way of you and the rest of the Nation to sleep better at night. No one cares about the East coast anymore! Get a life!

i think someone just lit a match under your skirt... @HoneyBaddger, i don't think anyone called you out by name, unless you're the "alt" that is in question.

But you just placed the spot-light on yourself by speaking out about that abusive behavior. <_<

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21 minutes ago, HoneyBaddger said:

Are you talking about me? Do you have any proof of this? More accusations from a dying nation! I find this simply offensive and I am going to report you for this abuse! You have no evidence to back up what you are saying. I think that is a punishable offence. I am flattered that the US still thinks I can repeatedly control them through my words, but I have been in US nation chat since I left. I guess I am still a legend over there ehh? You guys still talk about me no-stop it seems, but I don't give a flying rats ass about the US nation. We are now focused on other people that WILL give us fights. Have you been attacked by BLACK or BLOOD since this "so called alt" has been around? NO!!!! NO!!! You havent, it could be an alt from another nation for all you know.!Your words and no evidence to back it up about this guy reporting US positions is just a way of you and the rest of the Nation to sleep better at night. No one cares about the East coast anymore! Get a life!

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1 hour ago, HoneyBaddger said:

Are you talking about me? Do you have any proof of this? More accusations from a dying nation! I find this simply offensive and I am going to report you for this abuse! You have no evidence to back up what you are saying. I think that is a punishable offence. I am flattered that the US still thinks I can repeatedly control them through my words, but I have been in US nation chat since I left. I guess I am still a legend over there ehh? You guys still talk about me no-stop it seems, but I don't give a flying rats ass about the US nation. We are now focused on other people that WILL give us fights. Have you been attacked by BLACK or BLOOD since this "so called alt" has been around? NO!!!! NO!!! You havent, it could be an alt from another nation for all you know.!Your words and no evidence to back it up about this guy reporting US positions is just a way of you and the rest of the Nation to sleep better at night. No one cares about the East coast anymore! Get a life!

 stop playing yourself ffs. With this rage induced defense, you look even MORE guilty, and even MORE like dirt.

Edited by Slim Jimmerson
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9 hours ago, Archaos said:

The same applies to the screening fleet being there purely to tag and kite the PB fleet.

Not to get in the middle of this completely useless debate I would be careful about what you ask for here. Screening is a core part of Naval combat and should be part of any naval combat game. This is a core part of the PVP generation for this server so make sure you define clearly what you mean. Any call for the reduction of PVP can only end poorly for NA.

Some screening may be kiting, some is not. Asking for developer adjustments to tell the difference is complete unicorns and lollypop kind of wishes.

Edited by Vllad
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1 minute ago, Vllad said:

Not to get in the middle of this completely useless debate I would be careful about what you ask for here. Screening is a core part of Naval combat should be part of any naval combat game. This is a core part of the PVP generation for this server so make sure you define clearly what you mean. Any call for the reduction of PVP can only end poorly for NA.

Some screening may be kiting, some is not. Asking for developer adjustments to tell the difference is complete unicorns and lollypop kind of wishes.

The issue is that people were screening by tagging without any intention to fight. I fully agree that screening is an important part of the game and I also believe that if a nation can field enough screeners to prevent the port battle happening then so be it, but at least let there be a battle and not just a chase to run down the time. Tagging and kiting the PB fleet to run down the clock is not PvP and if this is a valid mechanic then it reduces PvP because the screeners have no PvP and if they are sucessful it means there is not a port battle either.

The screeners role should be to take out or weaken the PB fleet in a battle, not just waste time.

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Well, seeing as two well known BLACK alts in GB nation chat have attempted the same thing over the past few weeks.

Summer006 which is Queen007 alt.  And Shadow who is another BLACK alt, unknown as to who the main account is, couldnt care less to be honest.  

It doesnt surprise me that these orlop dwellers would do it in other nation chats as well.

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9 minutes ago, Vllad said:

Not to get in the middle of this completely useless debate I would be careful about what you ask for here. Screening is a core part of Naval combat should be part of any naval combat game. This is a core part of the PVP generation for this server so make sure you define clearly what you mean. Any call for the reduction of PVP can only end poorly for NA.

Some screening may be kiting, some is not. Asking for developer adjustments to tell the difference is complete unicorns and lollypop kind of wishes.

Oh like those ML guys last night in Lynxes who were tagging British players around Mortimer and then running with no intention of fighting.   They did this all the way down to Jeremie Haiti from Mortimer... yeah.. not at all the same thing.   Most of the screening attacks actually have the intention of attacking the few ships they drag in, in hopes of damaging or capping them before the battle.

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7 hours ago, Trouble said:

Since you and I both agree that the developers seem to be allowing the Black clan to use exploits at every opportunity, maybe the developers have simply chosen to let this game die off, and do not expect it to succeed, since if the developers felt otherwise they would dole out appropriate punishments, for exploits and Alts etc...

Yesterday the US nation had a new Pirate alt of "Stuck in Irons Badger" trolling the US nation chat on his new alt "Sir Salt" for hours, making US nation chat completely pointless, as he parked his basic cutter out front of Charleston and reported US player positions to the Pirate's as he trolled US Nation chat...

Unless the developers can figure out a way to keep one persons Alt from disrupting an entire nations chat, this game will become completely untenable!

 

I'm sorry but I like the fact that the devs have taken a mostly "hands off" approach to the sand box.  In the long run it will make for a better game.  Almost every in game problem can be solved by the players themselves if they try.

Some alt spamming chat? Block him.

Some alt in a cutter calling off ships leaving the capital? Work out a deal with a foreign friend to help deal with it.  Get you own pirate spy alr, log it in and deal with it.  Simply use a different port. Ignore him.  Many ways to deal with it but even the devs aren't going to stop players from being able to make alt spies.

Savanna seems to be a huge point of the arguement.  Just flip it back.  Black really can't stop you from flipping it. They can only try to stop you from winning the subsequent battle.  If you think your going to sail over there in any old time frame, grind it to a flip and then win the port battle with x25 first rates then the first thing you have to understand is that you have chosen to play that style of combat they are most prepared for.

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5 minutes ago, Archaos said:

The issue is that people were screening by tagging without any intention to fight. I fully agree that screening is an important part of the game and I also believe that if a nation can field enough screeners to prevent the port battle happening then so be it, but at least let there be a battle and not just a chase to run down the time. Tagging and kiting the PB fleet to run down the clock is not PvP and if this is a valid mechanic then it reduces PvP because the screeners have no PvP and if they are sucessful it means there is not a port battle either.

The screeners role should be to take out or weaken the PB fleet in a battle, not just waste time.

I'm sorry but it's not an exploit it is a tactic. When you let go of that and figure out tactics to beat it you will be able to move forward again. 

When Napoleon invaded Russia the Russian didn't fight but did a fighting withdrawal never intending to fight the French. They "kited" the French army all the way back to Moscow wasting time until the Russian winter arrived. Napoleon started with 500,000 men and lost almost all of them to that Prussian time waste. He got back to France with 9000 men. Now the Prussians following him fought and they won the war.

Sam Houston used the Alamo sacrifice and a fighting withdrawal to waste the time and resources of Santa Anna's Mexican army. It got them off balance, over stretched and weak. When Sam Houston finally attacked he won the end battle in 5min and Texas beat Mexico for its independence.  

Delays and fighting withdrawals are all tactics smaller forces have used in the past to deal with bigger stronger forces. It's not for the game masters to prevent all these tactics. It is for the players to counter them first and if it isn't possible to counter then it is time for the devs to step in. The tactics you described are not impossible for players to counter.

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1 minute ago, Bach said:

I'm sorry but it's not an exploit it is a tactic. When you let go of that and figure out tactics to beat it you will be able to move forward again. 

When Napoleon invaded Russia the Russian didn't fight but did a fighting withdrawal never intending to fight the French. They "kited" the French army all the way back to Moscow wasting time until the Russian winter arrived. Napoleon started with 500,000 men and lost almost all of them to that Prussian time waste. He got back to France with 9000 men. Now the Prussians following him fought and they won the war.

Sam Houston used the Alamo sacrifice and a fighting withdrawal to waste the time and resources of Santa Anna's Mexican army. It got them off balance, over stretched and weak. When Sam Houston finally attacked he won the end battle in 5min and Texas beat Mexico for its independence.  

Delays and fighting withdrawals are all tactics smaller forces have used in the past to deal with bigger stronger forces. It's not for the game masters to prevent all these tactics. It is for the players to counter them first and if it isn't possible to counter then it is time for the devs to step in. The tactics you described are not impossible for players to counter.

I never said it was an exploit, I said it was a poor game mechanic that allows it and the upshot was that the Pirates did find a way to circumvent it by avoiding the screen altogether, to which people cried foul and took it to tribunal claiming exploit, and the response from the Devs was that it was not an exploit. So in the end the whole argument that has raged back and forth in this thread is about people using game mechanics that are not exploits. If they are valid tactics then why so many complaints. All that has been achieved is less PvP with the screen rendered useless and the port battles may as well be set up in a lobby.

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28 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Oh like those ML guys last night in Lynxes who were tagging British players around Mortimer and then running with no intention of fighting.   They did this all the way down to Jeremie Haiti from Mortimer... yeah.. not at all the same thing.   Most of the screening attacks actually have the intention of attacking the few ships they drag in, in hopes of damaging or capping them before the battle.

Now that you know what they are doing have you figured out how to counter it next time?

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1 hour ago, Archaos said:

The issue is that people were screening by tagging without any intention to fight.

This sounds like a very intelligent tactic to me. There are obvious counters to this tactic. Why are you asking the developers to fix something that the players can fix themselves?

 

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1 hour ago, Hodo said:

Oh like those ML guys last night in Lynxes who were tagging British players around Mortimer and then running with no intention of fighting.   They did this all the way down to Jeremie Haiti from Mortimer... yeah.. not at all the same thing.   Most of the screening attacks actually have the intention of attacking the few ships they drag in, in hopes of damaging or capping them before the battle.

Ok Mr. Privateer!

Why weren't you sinking those Lynxes? Seeing those Lynxes should have been Hodo heaven!

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16 minutes ago, Vllad said:

This sounds like a very intelligent tactic to me. There are obvious counters to this tactic. Why are you asking the developers to fix something that the players can fix themselves?

 

Because pirates don't want to bring a screening fleet themselves to attack

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25 minutes ago, Vllad said:

Ok Mr. Privateer!

Why weren't you sinking those Lynxes? Seeing those Lynxes should have been Hodo heaven!

They ran from my Snow.   And I was in my Snow at the time.  Caught and killed a Navy Brig though.   

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2 hours ago, Archaos said:

The issue is that people were screening by tagging without any intention to fight. I fully agree that screening is an important part of the game and I also believe that if a nation can field enough screeners to prevent the port battle happening then so be it, but at least let there be a battle and not just a chase to run down the time. Tagging and kiting the PB fleet to run down the clock is not PvP and if this is a valid mechanic then it reduces PvP because the screeners have no PvP and if they are sucessful it means there is not a port battle either.

The screeners role should be to take out or weaken the PB fleet in a battle, not just waste time.

I think this post hits the nail on the head. Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I suspect the devs were unhappy with both the complete evasion of screens and also the kiting type of screens which require little investment by the defender.

First, they implement a login timer so you can't join PBs right after logging in at sea (this used to be standard practice on pvp2). Then, when any PB group can get picked apart by tag circles in OW, they introduce circle on the defender (excellent change). From dev reactions to tribunals, it looks like they are trying to have the previous battles be water under the bridge so that we can actually test the game going forward. I don't blame them for this, as they are still refining mechanics for this game we all enjoy.

I would like to note that since these changes, pirates have been sailing up to port battles in a group in the OW; no shenanigans were used or attempted. I am wondering if a large fleet of 5th & 4th rates could tag in a 1st rate fleet and give them serious grief instead of letting them into the port battle, but sadly it has not been tested to my knowledge.  Screening should still be effective, as long as you bring enough BR to have skin in the game.

There have been no screening attempts to block pirates out since the change to tag circle on the defender, so please draw what conclusions you wish from that.

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4 minutes ago, Doug Maoz said:

 

I would like to note that since these changes, pirates have been sailing up to port battles in a group in the OW; no shenanigans were used or attempted. I am wondering if a large fleet of 5th & 4th rates could tag in a 1st rate fleet and give them serious grief instead of letting them into the port battle, but sadly it has not been tested to my knowledge.  Screening should still be effective, as long as you bring enough BR to have skin in the game.

There have been no screening attempts to block pirates out since the change to tag circle on the defender, so please draw what conclusions you wish from that.

I agree you should bring enough BR to make it worth it... BUT as long as people can tag each other (PIRATES) or tag an alt and hide in a battle screen for an hour and half then get warp speed invisibility after and instant join PB.   There is a problem.

You should not be able to join a port battle after leaving another battle, until the battle join timer has counted down.   And that timer should be shortened to match the tag timer.

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2 minutes ago, Hodo said:

I agree you should bring enough BR to make it worth it... BUT as long as people can tag each other (PIRATES) or tag an alt and hide in a battle screen for an hour and half then get warp speed invisibility after and instant join PB.   There is a problem.

You should not be able to join a port battle after leaving another battle, until the battle join timer has counted down.   And that timer should be shortened to match the tag timer.

The brits stopped sending 5th rates now that you can't tag the pb fleet without proper br so all that you're saying doesn't happen anymore. When someone actually sends a screening fleet, we'll test the mechanics

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8 minutes ago, Vllad said:

That sucks, you finally have Privateer fodder and you show up in a Snow!

That is exactly what I said in teamspeak... LOL

I bring out a Snow to tag bigger ships and I run into 3 Lynxes that I could easily deal with in my solo Lynx.   

Oh well story of my hunting life.

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On 7/28/2017 at 5:33 PM, Mike the Mongel said:

Abuse a Nation ??? is that what you call it ?  Its called PvP and lord help the Pirates who endured the ABUSE by US last year...but no wait we didn't run to the other side we stuck it out and stomped a mud hole in the US backside .

Yes, and a good number of the US players that one ported you are now Pirates.

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14 hours ago, Vllad said:

This sounds like a very intelligent tactic to me. There are obvious counters to this tactic. Why are you asking the developers to fix something that the players can fix themselves?

 

All well and good but the tactic they found to get round this was to use the outlaw, AI or alt battle to circumvent the screen. Do you still think that is a good tactic, and please dont repeat the lame excuse the Devs spouted about it being an open battle that anyone can join, because we all know that anyone who plans to do this will ensure they are far enough away from the spawn point that they cannot be caught unless a person enters the instance at almost the same time.

The battle group mechanic may have gone some way towards solving the first issue (not sure if it has been tested properly yet), but the second issue still remains.

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6 hours ago, Archaos said:

All well and good but the tactic they found to get round this was to use the outlaw, AI or alt battle to circumvent the screen. Do you still think that is a good tactic, and please dont repeat the lame excuse the Devs spouted about it being an open battle that anyone can join, because we all know that anyone who plans to do this will ensure they are far enough away from the spawn point that they cannot be caught unless a person enters the instance at almost the same time.

If you are already closed minded about the things players can do to circumvent these tactics then there is no point in having the discussion with you.

If you want developers to do all your thinking for you than you will never be on a winning side no matter what format they put in front of you.

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