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White Peace - France-Denmark Trade Conflict ends


Teutonic

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4 minutes ago, Bach said:

Pretty much when a nation sides against you and starts screening for the nation your at war with it generally goes without saying all previous alliance deals become null and void.

Just sayin :)

In response to hostilities after they thought they had peace?  We can go round and round about this for hours.  We need resolution, or declaration there can't be one.  It'll take some bravery, courage, and trust to get there.  But given the toxicity that this chat has de-evolved into I don't believe peaceful resolution is a reality until some egos are self-medicated, perhaps even my own.  Yet I remain hopeful.

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5 minutes ago, Landomatic said:

Your details, and your presentation of what occurred here is largely conjecture and contains falsehoods. You were advised that the late night port flip that occurred was an accident. There were no Danish alts at that PB yet you and the 'other' french clans continue to grandstand on this incorrect point, because you use it to keep your misinformation campaign going; which supports and justifies some of your hostility.  Additionally, the 'other' french clans benefitted more than the supposed 'puppet' one did as almost all of the CM flips had more of the 'other' clans in them than ICS. Which by they way weren't happening at all until the Danes assisted with the flips.  I've explained this via the leadership chat, nation chat, and other direct channels for weeks now.  Yet the brilliance of my French fellows continue to disavow logic in the face of facts, which blows my mind. Additionally, as the 'Diplomacy System' will not be reintroduced into the game, we asked for clarification from the Danes as to how long they'll hold the ports, and they intonated they would return them shortly after our incursion with the Dutch was done, which I'd imagine wouldn't have taken too much time given potential round the clock battling.  This, I also personally mentioned to my leaderships French fellows.

I can appreciate the concern about the Danes taking the ports they otherwise reserved for the Swedes.  I can also see why the Danes don't trust some of the French as our nation continues to demonstrate it's inability to be cohesive for reasons I was otherwise told were in the 'past' but obviously now continue to resurface for the sake of justification and war-mongering, while our other enemies build ships and sprinkle parmesan in their popcorn bowls.

If you're worried about Danish occupation of those ports from a security perspective, and the Danes are to occupy the area so the Swedes can get 25 additional CMs daily, why not let France occupy them, and have some French diplos send the allotment to the Swedes directly? I bet the short answer would be it's a pain in the ass, but I'll reserve judgment. They otherwise get to build ships and play the game they'd like to, not get bullied by other nations, and still maintain their identity without being assimilated to a different collective, nation.

 

Also, in recent times the Danes have demonstrated to ICS, and I also believe the Pirates, and some others they keep their word.

I look forward to feedback about the suggestion and discussing it further.

 

Bridgetown could have been an accident or it may not have been. Your side is just as much conjecture without proof. 

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Danish alts?  That wasn't a PB. They used French ships to flip VI into their time frame.

Anyone who had the required hostility on the ports benefited. Didn't matter if they were ICS/Bork/FRN etc... The only time they don't is if the PB happens off hours for them like Bridgetown did.  Your last proposal for getting 25 CMs to Sweden from French vs. Danes sounds fine. But we didn't get any say in that matter now did we.  Further, it wasn't you the Swedes were shooting at in the war.  Why again do we need to back the Swedes getting 50 CM/day for x4 men? 

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On 7/7/2017 at 3:38 PM, Teutonic said:

-- France and Denmark have immediately stopped all hostilities against each other. No hostile port battles and no OW PvP between France and Denmark

Not having the Swedes do the flips themselves and (Danes attacking French held port) = violation of treaty.  If Swedes wanted to hand off the ports, they needed to be in THEIR possession first, none of this Danes doing it for them..  Danes broke the deal in less than a day.

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1 minute ago, Bach said:

Why again do we need to back the Swedes getting 50 CM/day for x4 men? 

This too.

Swedes absolutely hate France.

So the Danes just made a deal with them to give them 50 CM per day. What could go wrong.

What exactly all 4 Swedes are going to do with 50 CM per day I can't imagine but I'm sure there's nothing fishy going on because Duncan said so and he would never be a bad liar who thinks he's an amazing genius and that everyone around him is an idiot and if only they could see his genius they would finally appreciate him instead of giving him crap jobs like having to be the diplomat in charge of talking to the Danes.

Yeah, couldn't be that. Not from good old Duncan.

43 minutes ago, Duncan McFail said:

I'm not seeing much of this mutual respect in this thread judging from half of these posts.

The time for mutual respect was about 4 weeks ago when this all started.
The other time for mutual respect was any of those times France offered CCCP a very fair deal to end the conflict and be friends.
The other time for mutual respect was when we recently finally got them to sign a deal that could end the conflict and we could be friends and then whoops they said no.
The other time for mutual respect was when we got them to sign a deal for real this time and not attack our ports and they immediately attacked our ports.
The other time for mutual respect was when we asked you to intercede and actually enforce the treaty you backed and you fed us a load of crap instead.
You could have also had some mutual respect by not claiming those ports were taken by the Danes because you don't trust France.

The time for mutual respect is dead, Duncan.

Deaaaaad. You killed it. You murderer.

I'm going to be mutually respecting the next pirate trade ships I see, though. You know I don't think the pirates can be trusted with the contents of those ships. I'll reassign them to France for safe keeping, out of mutual respect. We'll use it to create a fleet of mutually respectful 1st rates that might help the British mutually respect a few key Pirate ports because we just want to make sure there's no funny business and that those ports get into the right hands.

Gonna be a lot of mutual respect going on around here, Duncan.

(You know what I like about the British? They want to kill me and they shout it from a distance and run at me with a knife in their hand. The Pirates act friendly, ask about your mother's health and then stab you in the back and then say it'll be okay, it needed to be done and we'll thank them some day, as they stab us again.)

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现在开始拒绝回复一切非国家代表的回复  

clan代表所说的话并不是法国说的话

丹麦承认的法国代表目前只有 条顿巴博萨

如果要添加新代表可以通过上述两个代表联系我 ,如果不是我们所承认的代表,那么它所说的话=放屁

 

在家一段:cccp几乎就我一个人关注论坛的这些事,如果我也不看,那么你们就自娱自乐吧

Edited by chailang
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27 minutes ago, chailang said:

现在开始拒绝回复一切非国家代表的回复  

clan代表所说的话并不是法国说的话

丹麦承认的法国代表目前只有 条顿巴博萨

如果要添加新代表可以通过上述两个代表联系我 ,如果不是我们所承认的代表,那么它所说的话=放屁

 

在家一段:cccp几乎就我一个人关注论坛的这些事,如果我也不看,那么你们就自娱自乐吧

Best response mate
Dont feed the trolls :) 

Edited by koltes
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2 hours ago, Slamz said:

This too.

Swedes absolutely hate France.

So the Danes just made a deal with them to give them 50 CM per day. What could go wrong.

What exactly all 4 Swedes are going to do with 50 CM per day I can't imagine but I'm sure there's nothing fishy going on because Duncan said so and he would never be a bad liar who thinks he's an amazing genius and that everyone around him is an idiot and if only they could see his genius they would finally appreciate him instead of giving him crap jobs like having to be the diplomat in charge of talking to the Danes.

Yeah, couldn't be that. Not from good old Duncan.

The time for mutual respect was about 4 weeks ago when this all started.
The other time for mutual respect was any of those times France offered CCCP a very fair deal to end the conflict and be friends.
The other time for mutual respect was when we recently finally got them to sign a deal that could end the conflict and we could be friends and then whoops they said no.
The other time for mutual respect was when we got them to sign a deal for real this time and not attack our ports and they immediately attacked our ports.
The other time for mutual respect was when we asked you to intercede and actually enforce the treaty you backed and you fed us a load of crap instead.
You could have also had some mutual respect by not claiming those ports were taken by the Danes because you don't trust France.

The time for mutual respect is dead, Duncan.

Deaaaaad. You killed it. You murderer.

I'm going to be mutually respecting the next pirate trade ships I see, though. You know I don't think the pirates can be trusted with the contents of those ships. I'll reassign them to France for safe keeping, out of mutual respect. We'll use it to create a fleet of mutually respectful 1st rates that might help the British mutually respect a few key Pirate ports because we just want to make sure there's no funny business and that those ports get into the right hands.

Gonna be a lot of mutual respect going on around here, Duncan.

(You know what I like about the British? They want to kill me and they shout it from a distance and run at me with a knife in their hand. The Pirates act friendly, ask about your mother's health and then stab you in the back and then say it'll be okay, it needed to be done and we'll thank them some day, as they stab us again.)

Damn Slamz. I'm not feeling the love here. The point was if you continue talking smack about the Danes and Pirates you're just putting a strain on this peace. The Danes never took any extra ports. Only the one port to equal what you had of theirs before they wanted a ceasefire to get a general consensus from all of their clan. Same happened on your side. If you're interested in peace give the Danes time until the Swede ports are off cooldown and you'll see them putting hostility on them. Although it really doesn't matter who controls those ports as long as they don't go past that line. If you want to say screw the peace then give the 3 day notice that was agreed to back out. But before that please put your nation first and confer with the other clans. We have nothing to gain by involving ourselves in a war against France and we've never broken a deal.

 

btw how is your mother doing?

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1 hour ago, chailang said:

现在开始拒绝回复一切非国家代表的回复  

clan代表所说的话并不是法国说的话

丹麦承认的法国代表目前只有 条顿巴博萨

如果要添加新代表可以通过上述两个代表联系我 ,如果不是我们所承认的代表,那么它所说的话=放屁

 

在家一段:cccp几乎就我一个人关注论坛的这些事,如果我也不看,那么你们就自娱自乐吧

补充:

国家代表是双方都信任的人才能充当,就像条顿和巴博萨一样,我们可以相信他们

未来法国如果选择一个我们不信任的人来当国家代表,那么我们不会做出任何正式回复,直到一个让我们能够信任的人来再次与我们交谈

还有一个方案:寻找一个双方都相信的中间人与我们进行交流,我们可能会进行回复(不是正式

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Let me frame this Swedes hand off of ports to the Danes thing a bit.   I remind that the deal is done and we're not changing it. We're just talking about what a crappy deal it turned out to be for some of us.   In hopes that future deals with the Danes/Swedes would go better. 

The ports represent 50CM/day in wealth.  Follow me on this:

Dad is hopping Jimmy will kick his drug habit because he has been a bad boy. He promises to give Jimmy his car on Jimmy's 18th Birthday.  Jimmy thinks this is great and promises to be a good boy.  But on his 17th birthday Jimmy gives the car his dad is still driving to drug pushers for drug money because its valuable.  The drug pushers show up and take the car away from Jimmy's dad, say thank you and don't worry we're going to give your son the drugs we promised him while were using the car.

Now the drug pushers and their lawyers are expecting Jimmy's dad to be happy about the deal.  :)

 

 

 

Edited by Bach
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Not to throw fuel on the fire, but I have to say that the ink was not even dry yet that the Danes were already violating it's spirit.  I thought it was quite clear that Bovenwinds and Leewards would go to Sweden, not Denmark.  So what's all this about?  To say that Danes have been disingenuous is an understatement.  If Sweeden and Denmark had a side deal , it would have been the honest thing to do to bake it into the agreement. 

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4 hours ago, chailang said:

补充:

国家代表是双方都信任的人才能充当,就像条顿和巴博萨一样,我们可以相信他们

未来法国如果选择一个我们不信任的人来当国家代表,那么我们不会做出任何正式回复,直到一个让我们能够信任的人来再次与我们交谈

还有一个方案:寻找一个双方都相信的中间人与我们进行交流,我们可能会进行回复(不是正式

Not to put too fine a point on it, but seems to me that there is a decreasing number of players in Denmark that anyone can have any trust it.  Y'all are doing a fine job discrediting yourselves.

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5 hours ago, chailang said:

I hate personal attacks. I'll report all the personal attacks 

You should report personal attacks. You should not be getting personal attacks. You should also understand why people are angry with you.

Sweden needs x6 days to flip Bovenwinds and Leeward Islands.

Bovenwinds and Leewards Islands = 50CM/day

Denmark has stolen 300 CM from France.

Denmark did this 1 day after signing peace treaty with France.

Edited by Bach
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Trust is the biggest problem we have here and actions always speak louder than words and clearly words can be interpreted (and in this case translated) differently.

  1. The Danish do not trust the French and a couple clans in particular because the Danish believe a previous agreement was violated with respect to Peace Deal #1.  -- whether or not the clans involved had actually agreed to the deal at this point in time is irrelevant so the actions were what they were and the perception was foul play.
  2. The French do not trust the Danish because when asked about return of BT and GT per Peace Deal #1, the response was "once Alliances are put back in the game" which turns "temporary occupation" of those ports into de facto "permanent occupation" of those port -- whether or not this was due to mis-translation or whatever the reason the fact remains the perception was foul play.
  3. The French do not trust the Danish because the French were told that Peace Deal #2 (or was it #3?) was accepted, then shortly thereafter told no it wasn't and new demands were instead being placed on the French and more ports were being placed in contention.  Again, miscommunication or whatever the reason actions and the perception again was foul play.
  4. The French do not trust the Danish since when France pushed the war and started to accelerate port flipping both in number of ports as well as pushing into Danish home waters, the Danish resorted to Basic Cutter Shenanigans and alleged alt-abuse (which is still pending in Tribunal) to counter it.  Both actions leading to perception of foul play.
  5. The French do not trust the Danish due to "accidental" flipping of Bridgetown in off-hours.  The fact is the port was flipped and whether or not it was really an accident no one can prove one way or the other.  If tensions weren't already high, perhaps it might not have been perceived this way but in this case the perception was again foul play.

Fast forward to Peace Deal #N (whatever number we are up to for this thread).

The ink is not even dry and Denmark immediately starts raising contention on St. Johns.

No notification of what was happening and why.  No word from Sweden or Denmark.  Even in this thread where a request was made for someone from Sweden to post;  all this got us wasn't a terribly constructive response that would have helped de-escalate.  Instead more sabre rattling.

What do you think the perception was going to be?

You may say calm down and 'wait and see' it will all work out in the end.  It may very well end up where you think it will.  But in the meantime everyone (on all sides of this whether it be French, Pirate, Swedish or Danish) have left a very bad taste in other parties' mouths.  In the end it matters just as much what you mean as it does how the other parties perceive what you mean and how the other parties perceive your actions in light of what you and they each think is being said.

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Bach said:

You should report personal attacks. You should not be getting personal attacks. You should also understand why people are angry with you.

Sweden needs x6 days to flip Bovenwinds and Leeward Islands.

Bovenwinds and Leewards Islands = 50CM/day

Denmark has stolen 300 CM from France.

Denmark did this 1 day after signing peace treaty with France.

Those areas aren't yours. Don't count the conquest marks as yours that don't even belong to you. Get some conquest marks off of the 2 Dane ports that are in your territory. 

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2 minutes ago, Duncan McFail said:

Those areas aren't yours. Don't count the conquest marks as yours that don't even belong to you. Get some conquest marks off of the 2 Dane ports that are in your territory. 

 

Those areas aren't CCCP's either. 

 

What do you mean by "2 Dane ports that are in your territory"?  CCCP has been holding various French ports during this conflict, which they started by attacking our region Leewards.  The only region that France ever took is Bovenwinds, from the Swedes.  

 

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49 minutes ago, Duncan McFail said:

Those areas aren't yours. Don't count the conquest marks as yours that don't even belong to you. Get some conquest marks off of the 2 Dane ports that are in your territory. 

 

Conquest marks are only generated by war conquest. They belong to whom ever earned them.

Those areas were French by war conquest. We put in the time, effort and risk to take them.  The peace treaty gave permission to take them to the Swedes. Only one as ever even held by Sweden at anytime previous time. Neither started the map owned by Sweden.  The shared point of view in the treaty is that those counties can be owned by Sweden. Obviously there was never a shared view that they could be owned by Denmark.  Hence our current issue.

If we want to go by what theoretically belongs to whom I'm perfectly fine seeing the Dutch own Bovenwinds and not entirely opposed to the Brits taking back the Leewards.  In fact, if the Dutch say they want Bovenwinds back I would back them. If the Swedes can't hold it there is nothing in the treaty that says I have to protect them.  By the same logic the Danes are using France can loan BT to the Dutch as a base to get the job done.

 

Edited by Bach
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48 minutes ago, Arsilon said:

[Reasons French don't trust Danes]

I would also add:

  • French don't trust Danes because Danes ignored request to come to a an official deal, when some lone rogue turncoat unilaterally agreed to a deal #1 without consulting anyone else.
  • Danes confused French clans in trying to retaliate - escalating into a national war.
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7 hours ago, chailang said:

I hate personal attacks. I'll report all the personal attacks 

己所不欲,勿施於人

If you feel you are being personally attacked, look first to yourself, and ensure you do not give reason for others to attack you.

Especially do not give them a new reason every day for 4 weeks.

 

Also, bear in mind that in this forum, "diplomacy, roleplay and light forum PvP" are allowed. Yes I, French Captain Slamz, think you, Danish Captain Chailang, are a scurvy dog and that Duncan McFail, Pirate captain, is possibly the worst diplomat I have ever seen, second only to Captain Jean LaKron Barbosa.

In real life I'd be happy to have some beers and laugh about the game but in character, wow, does Captain Slamz really despise the lot of you.

Edited by Slamz
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58 minutes ago, Duncan McFail said:

Those areas aren't yours. Don't count the conquest marks as yours that don't even belong to you. Get some conquest marks off of the 2 Dane ports that are in your territory. 

Well, not sure which dog is yours in this, but one may note that the present deal would have Sweden be a buffer between France and Denmark.  Even a buffoon would recognize that the present Dane actions allow Denmark to retain proximity to French waters and is not only a violation of the agreement but a clear sign of maintained hostility.  So again, it really does not get much more disingenuous (role playing or no-role playing).

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9 hours ago, Bach said:

Its not the CMs. Those are just a symbolic last cookie from the jar.

Yeah, I actually think CMs will be going away soon. Admin has had some posts saying he doesn't like how they're working and was considering alternatives.

And at the rate people are losing 1st rates in the game (how many have been sunk in grand total since server reset? Not capped but actually sunk. Like.....5?), I'm surprised anyone even sees value in the things. I think Purge has enough to give every member of the guild at least 3 L'Oceans but I don't see the point.

Groups like CCCP and ICS are going to find that they burned all their bridges trying to amass a horde of Conquest Marks that have turned to dust.

Edited by Slamz
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15 hours ago, Slamz said:

You know what, I'm tired of trying to explain to you what "no hostile port battles" means or what 3+ weeks of exactly this kind of dumb metagaming has done to my ability to put up with even more of it now. Much easier to just not make any more deals that involve Pirates or Danes. Go play your stupid word games with some other sucker.

We tried that. Doesn't work. They're all idiots who think "alliance" is just a way to search for loopholes for their own benefit and screws us over at every turn.

If you know anyone who wants a REAL alliance, involving actual cooperation and mutual respect, you let me know. It ain't Pirates and it ain't the Danes.

You can try the Brits. They are very far away and also fighting the pirates.

 

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9 hours ago, chailang said:

现在开始拒绝回复一切非国家代表的回复  

clan代表所说的话并不是法国说的话

丹麦承认的法国代表目前只有 条顿巴博萨

如果要添加新代表可以通过上述两个代表联系我 ,如果不是我们所承认的代表,那么它所说的话=放屁

 

在家一段:cccp几乎就我一个人关注论坛的这些事,如果我也不看,那么你们就自娱自乐吧

Mr Barbosa is not a national representative. Teutonic is the only one out of 2 people that you mentioned who can represent the FRENCH as a nation.

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