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Blackjack Morgan

Time to hit the Reset Button

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42 minutes ago, Justme said:

Problem is with PVE only players is that they don't realize.

 

1. This game will not survive as PVE only. No matter how much you want it, just won't happen.

2. PVE only gameplay ( in NA) is almost 0 risk. No risk of getting sunk and losing ships, no reason to replace them, which leads to boring and tedious gameplay, which leads to empty servers( aka PVE only server)

 

 

Well, I personally lost quite some ships in my trade runs. I do not mission a lot so the same did not happen to me in mission. But a lot of traders and missioners in my factions lost their ships to gankers and no revenge fleet could avoid this. So point 2 is at least disputable. There is less risk but not O risk as you state.

As far as point 1 is concerned, I stil fail to understand in which sense reducing the cost for replacing ships and allowing people (so, even PVPers) to move with more ease between ports will lead to a PVE only gameplay. Can you explain it to me, please?

Edited by victor

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7 minutes ago, victor said:

Well, I personally lost quite some ships in my trade runs. I do not mission a lot so the same did not happen to me in mission. But a lot of traders and missioners in my factions lost their ships to gankers and no revenge fleet could avoid this. So point 2 is at least disputable. There is less risk but not O risk as you state.

As far as point 1 is concerned, I stil fail to understand in which sense reducing the cost for replacing ships and allowing people (so, even PVPers) to move with more ease between ports will lead to a PVE only gameplay. Can you explain it to me, please?

It makes ship worth nothing again.

Until wipe I lost 1 Bellona due to revengegank and because i sailed it infront of a capital and 1 suprise due to revengegank because i misscalculated a bit. Reduce in cost will not hit me and other pvp players but it will get boring fast when you have multiple ships of each rate again like prewipe.

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16 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

This is like EVE.  We are not happy, but EVE players are like in home -> They changed their target audience.

And since Naval Action legnds will come it actually makes sense to change audience to RvR focus

(still some things are wrong like i already mentioned)

Edited by rediii
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11 minutes ago, victor said:

Well, I personally lost quite some ships in my trade runs. I do not mission a lot so the same did not happen to me in mission. But a lot of traders and missioners in my factions lost their ships to gankers and no revenge fleet could avoid this. So point 2 is at least disputable. There is less risk but not O risk as you state.

As far as point 1 is concerned, I stil fail to understand in which sense reducing the cost for replacing ships and allowing people (so, even PVPers) to move with more ease between ports will lead to a PVE only gameplay. Can you explain it to me, please?

PVE only is almost 0 risk, just look at the PVE only server.  Almost no risk of loss, and it's a basically a dead server.  If you play PVE only on a PVP server there is still risk. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

This is like EVE.  We are not happy, but EVE players are like in home -> They changed their target audience.

nah, in EVE is very easy making a crapton of ISK, there are dozens of different path you can choose (trading, missioning, mining and manifacturing, null sec sovereignity RvR, low sector piracy, clan wars, high sector trade ganking, factional warfare, exploration, wormhole, invention, anomalies) and ... what's more important can access easy PVP also in a cheap frigate or destroyer that costs you the equivalent of three hours of missioning or grinding asteroids.

Edited by victor
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Just now, Justme said:

PVE only is almost 0 risk, just look at the PVE only server.  Almost no risk of loss, and it's a basically a dead server.  If you play PVE only on a PVP server there is still risk. 

 

It's dead since this game has no actually engaging PVE content. I'd never play in the PVE server.

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what's more important can access easy PVP also in a cheap frigate or destroyer that costs you the equivalent of three hours of missioning or grinding asteroids.

How is that different from NA then?

Three of us regularly go into Swedish waters in Pickles and pick up the odd lone 4th rate and traders.

 

How long does it take to get access to a Pickle as a new player? Three hours? Four?

Edited by Hagen v Martius
screw this forum software, christ change it to something that works already...

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Just now, rediii said:

And since Naval Action legnds will come it actually makes sense to change audience to RvR focus

(still some things are wrong like i already mentioned)

I am not an EVE player (PvP sucks, like it does now in NA), and I do not like Arena games that much.  I really liked NA like it was at some point.

RvR is now meant to be so that Port Battles are not even fights.  You are not supposed to have 25x 1st rates.  Instead you are supposed to have what you have, like in EVE.  It is just that our current player base is full of competitive PvP players, and we would like to have equal gear and 25x 1st rates.

Revenge fleets are ok for EVE players, as they have got used to that.  For us, that is BS.

I hope for NA that EVE players find it.

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If I recall the time shortly after EA start when we had over 2000 players and the game was apparantly so much better than today, then I see that most of the things that bother you today were also a thing back than. We had a massive grind to rank up (until the devs lowered it). I looked around for large clan fleets (SLRN at that time) who attacked one AI fleet after another to grind xp and joined them. We had revenge fleets and much longer battle join timers. Revenge fleets hadn't the large impact like today because on top of that, we also had battle screen camping and logouts in battle screen. Massive RNG drops like golden marines. No teleports to outposts. At one time demasting was possible with 4 pounders at 750m distance.

Just to make it clear. I also think that some things are not going into the right direction at the moment but don't romanticise the good old days just because we had more players ;) 

  • 1 dura is good (ships are worth something, few bought 3 or 4 dura ships back then, almost nobody bought a 1 dura ship, with current outlaw mechanics you could basically clone ships that way)
  • revenge fleets are still bad
  • rewards are a bit too low and the balance between pve and pvp rewards is off
  • xp-grind is ok I guess
  • harvesting resources is too expensive
  • It's true that you don't see that many ships on the free market. But you can always ask someone to craft what you need and want. We need something for this. Like a blackboard. You can insert a crafting job you want to have done. For example: I wan't an Essex, this wood, this planking or refit and maybe these modules. You can deposit mats and gold for the crafter if you want. And if a crafter thinks this is a good job where I can also earn some good gold, he can accept this. But I get off the track.
  • demasting needs to be rebalanced again
  • chain still too good imho and sometimes leads to very boring and pointless battles (should be limited in battle together with grape in the same way like double charge and shot)
  • speedmeta too strong
Edited by Cecil Selous
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I blame crafters for our current problems! We can't capture AI ships because crafters have need to feel important. We can't produce ships easily so that again dedicated crafters feel special. I say skin them, then put salt on them, then impale them on huge stick, and then finally roast them over campfire :P 

#stopcrafterstyranny

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As a level 50 crafter I don't mind cheap, multi dura ships. They actually didn't flood the market as pvp took it's toll. 

So more pvp: more trading of ships

Less pvp: less need for ships.

Enhance pvp please.

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37 minutes ago, victor said:

It's dead since this game has no actually engaging PVE content. I'd never play in the PVE server.

Forced PVE grinding is why the game is dead.

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When people can pay twice as much and more for upgrades than for a 5th rate itself, ships are definitely not too expensive. And again, durability has nothing to do with ship cost. One dura is most reasonable and we should be super happy that devs didnt hear on the majority talking against it neither having any clue what theyre talking about, nor a single valid argument.

Upgrades should be consumption goods crafted by players, to generate an upgrade market and make them much cheaper and accessable. Good upgrades can use more resources or labour, so they become more expensive this way.

Could also someone explain why most important logs need to be excluded from player production? This will always cause overproduction, shortcuts and weird pricing, cause its not dynamic. Assume we even can successfully balance it, it would only be balanced for actual player counts and ship consumption. 

Upgrade power level is still way too high in my opinion, and when they dont want to change this upgrades atleast need to be accessable for anyone. Making such important items rare cant work. 

Overall balancing is also a problem, using a fast wood build forces me for example to use all speed upgrades. Otherwise slower builds with speed upgrades would get to the same speed while beeing better in any other aspect.

Personally i like to optimise my ships, so i wont use many ship without good upgrades for PVP. And ofcourse im not taking much risk with a ship that has two times its value in upgrades equipped, while i dont even have access to new upgrades. 

Then PVP mostly results in chasing or running, cause ROE allows battles to open without fights to happen. Even if people have good chances of winnig they run, and when they get picked up one after another and half of them escaped already chances became 0 and as the attacker you wasted time chasing for a boring fight and poor rewards.

PVP is risk, and this needs to be rewarded. We should atleast increase marks from pvp by x3 to motivate people a little more. That cheap ships and economic easy mode, PVP just for fun, is not resulting in more PVP got proofed pre wipe when everybody owned everything. Making paints or special ships accessable only by PVP, some kind of special reward is needed.

24 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

xp-grind is ok I guess

Is it okay that 90% are max rank is the question. A healty rank distribution would help with problems like frist rate only PBs and would give ranks more meaning, make high ranks special.

28 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

It's true that you don't see that many ships on the free market. But you can always ask someone to craft what you need and want. We need something for this. Like a blackboard. You can insert a crafting job you want to have done. For example: I wan't an Essex, this wood, this planking or refit and maybe these modules. You can deposit mats and gold for the crafter if you want. And if a crafter thinks this is a good job where I can also earn some good gold, he can accept this. But I get off the track.

No, we need a working market. When you want more ship supply, you need more people selling materials. Either their is no mat supply, or mats are super expensive cause there is no competition. We should do "professions" to stop people from self supplying, and a fee system that doesnt punish you for not bypassing the market. Also crafters having to use the permits for crafting is a stupid mechanic. They have to buy expensive marks, while people wouldnt bother to use their own marks for the permit. A connie itself is worth 500k, but currently you need to put it in the shop for 760k+10%, 850k. The only option is to bypass the market and let people buy the permit for you.

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1 hour ago, rediii said:

And since Naval Action legnds will come it actually makes sense to change audience to RvR focus

(still some things are wrong like i already mentioned)

I just hope rvr brings  big fleet battles

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5 hours ago, rediii said:

There is no RvR right now because people still need ships. .....

Sadly most people are pretty slowly building up, once they are built up nations can start to do conquest.

THIS !!

The hard grinding makes building ships slow for most people.

Give NA more time, you can't enter in a conquest era without ressources and ships, only Swedes succeeded in a 'blitz grieg' against Frenchs just after the wipe.

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Personally, I think something is suspicious about the recent changes. There came a point after the wipe, when virtually everything cost PVP or Conquest marks. People were out doing PVP a great deal more, the upgrades, ships, etc had value because of it and in general, most people seemed happy with the direction of the game. We did ask that an exchange mechanism for PVE to PVP be added for those who mostly traded, as well as the cost for farming resources be lowered some. Thats it. (I know there was more - just generalizing). Even the Devs were saying over and over...."We want to increase PVP - get players out into OW"...and they did that.  SO....what happened? Why, in the middle of what seemed to be a good platform, did the Devs COMPLETELY change the game by making almost everything available for combat marks, destroying the value of PVP marks and doing away with any real reason to PVP? It gave me the feeling that they gave up - that they have elected to make a PVE based game out of NA and instead, have turned all their time toward the lobby game NL. I hope not. I honestly dont know what their reasoning is, but I can tell you that it took the wind out of many players sails. Population numbers that were slowly climbing are now slowly dropping. I know I probably never will, but id really like to know why the Devs made such a drastic change when things seem to be going well. This post is based on MY experience and is just an observation. Some will agree and others wont. Please understand, I dont need anyone to try and explain things to me unless you are a Dev. 

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57 minutes ago, Justme said:

Forced PVE grinding is why the game is dead.

so why are you against a huge cutting down in base material (iron, hemp, oak and fir) harvesting costs?

This will REDUCE the need for PVE grinding, since things (ships and cannons) will cost less and therefore you will need less grind to get them.

Edited by victor

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PvE grinding is driven less by ships and cannons and more by RNG upgrade drops and ship knowledge.  I can replace the former through PvP, crafting and trade, but if I pursue the latter through PvP I will just fall far behind the PvE grind and be entirely excluded from some benefits.  PvP mark value was only compensation for that and they destroyed it, even setting at the conversion rate at a level to intentionally insult / punish PvP players.

Edited by akd
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+1 OP  and I really hate what the PvP has become.......player versus repairs.......very very sad.I can understand the one dura thing but there MUST be a limit even with one dura ships.

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All i hear is whining without solutions.

The devs are doing their best, sadly i dont think they know what they are doing. they keep throwing stuff at the wall seeing if it will stick.

I do not profess to be right, but my solution is this. EVE Online is a great model for a sandbox ship MMO, take lessons from it , convert them to a tall ship map and mechanics.

also, make the map the entire world, make many thousands of colored dots/ports. make it so europe is pve, starter, basic econ area the rest of the world is up for grabs for the players to make their own countries.

naval action would be a whole different ball game.

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5 hours ago, victor said:

And which is your problem?

Cheaper ships and multiple dura, less fear to loose ships, more OS PVP for you.

 

As Redii said, ships lose value the more duras they have.

Not to mention they are pointless in trying to hurt an enemy nation by taking away their ability to effectively fight back.    There is no attrition and selling ships becomes a pointless en devour because there wont be enough demand and supply will be plentiful.  

 

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27 minutes ago, Elbizor said:

Its an RvR game now, I hope it works.

Which RvR are you talking about? The patch is out for more than a month now and there wasnt a single contested PB in my nation. The only thing which still makes me log into this game is our community. Naval Action is a PvE game, time to change my review

 

Naval Action has a really amazing and addicting fighting system, which is hard to master and has a lot of depth. Also the community is very friendly and helpful for the most part.

But it feels like the developers got their priorities for this game completely wrong. They add more and more boring and monotone grind, RnG items which you need to be able to fight other players and hours of afk sailing through an empty world.

So we have the best naval combat system right here, but are unable to get actual battles because it is buried so far beneath the surface.

Edited by Jon Snow lets go
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I've had more fun and PvP in the past few weeks than I did all last fall. This new patch iteration of the game is far better. It's put more ships on the sea and more relevant RvR. What it did not fix and what it can not fix are player hang ups and attitudes.

Its a PVE game because you chose it to be.

Making huge alliances with same size neighbors with players in your same time zone makes it a PVE game

Choosing to grind out NPCs to get enough marks to buy a mod that gives +.03 speed on your ship makes it a PVE game.

Refusing to fight unless you have a PvP ship tricked out with the best of everything first makes it a PVE game.

Purposely grinding and then fighting empty port battle after empty port battle to get huge amounts of CM marks because you won't RvR with anything less than x25 First Rates makes it a PVE game.

Assembling armies of Alts so you can use your neighbors resources without having to conquer the land makes it a PVE game.

Refusing to change tactics so you can deal with revenge fleets and choosing not to PvP until the Devs give you a way to not have to plan strategies makes it a PVE game.

You make this a PVE game by your own attitudes and choices.  You restrict yourselves to PVE because of old ideas you just won't let go or change. :(

 

 

Edited by Bach
  • Like 6

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