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Trying to solve revenge fleet problem


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3 hours ago, Cecil Selous said:

Interesting proposal if it is possible.

using the 3 - 4 closest mission locations to choose or random. Players don't spawn on battle location but also not to far away so that a real home defense fleet has to sail all over the place and back and forth if they want to engage or chase them away.

One of the problems is the same as for the spawn zones idea. It can be possible that you spawn right on an unlucky player who can't do anything against you now. So maybe it is still good if the spawned players aren't able to attack for a longer time or if the invisibility works in both ways. You can't be seen and you also can't see.

Aye, it's possible, though I reckon with randomization rather than choice, the splitting up of groups upon exiting that way, and 3 min or less closing timer for mission-runners it would be very difficult to use it offensively. A non-attack timer could be added since it's intended to be used as means of escape, as long as it's not so long that it prevents defensive tagging.

The problem with invisibility, as the admin highlighted, is that everything is handled server-side instead of client-side (which is why we have virtually zero hackers/cheaters) - so either you're visible to everyone or invisible to everyone. As soon as it becomes player-specific (e.g. you can't see anyone but they can see eachother) it becomes client-side (as I understand it at least).

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Here are updated distances. From Left to Right:  Kingston/Port Royal, La Tortue, Plymouth (for comparison to my last diagram.  notice how you can make Martinique now).  this is for 26 knots.

Reactive gameplay: "They came to our waters and ganked someone. Let's gather on their battle spot and wait around 1 hour for them to come out so we can countergank!" Active gameplay: "They came t

You have to blend realism and gameplay.  I don't think anyone has argued differently.  Your argument is the same dismissal as the one you level against those who bring up realism.  The problem with re

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3 hours ago, Sansón Carrasco said:

But... that's a HUGE exploit. It's quite a bit harder to intercept a ship on the open sea, across all the many potential bearings it may be taking into a given port, than intercepting it when it's just a few minutes outside of port.

So, that 10-15 minutes is already leading to many players taking advantage of a risk-free return to port. Heck, you can even use it to TP into an enemy national capital with your smuggler flag enabled, if you position yourself properly.

This ^

I can attest to that the unstuck teleports is still an easy-mode method for traders to avoid risks with ease - not to as ridiculous of an extent as the previous one, but still bad enough to warrant changing.

What was so bad about being unable to teleport with cargo in the hold? And how many of us have actually become stuck to the point of having to use the teleport function for its intended purpose? Hasn't happened to me even once.

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In line with what admin said about our "great ideas" being lost in the noise, I'm just going to add myself to the list of hijackers of this thread and post my own humble suggestion that I've argued for here and here, as well as other places probably. It basically boils down to this (adjusted to address constructive critique by Neptune etc.):

 

1. An increased speed for about a minute, or during invisibility, when coming out of a battle, and possibly without wind direction having an effect on speed during that time. 

2. A slightly longer invisibility timer. 

3. A long restriction on attacking, joining, and being attacked - has to last for at least half a minute more than the invisibility timer 

 

So, the scenario when exiting a battle instance would be, for example (exact timers debatable):

- 1-2 min. invisibility and speed boost, during which the escapee(s) will be able to cover a fair distance from the instance location (virtually mimicking being able to pick a spot in a circle around the point of escape).

- 3 min. restriction on attacking, joining battles, and being attacked. This will make it impossible for escapees to join a battle that started before they exited their own battle instance. It also helps to prevent the very real possibility of abuse of invisibility and speed on passers-by when exiting (they will have a one minute's chance to change course when seeing the escapee(s) coming out of invisibility), and allow for the relative speed differences of ships to take effect: that is, faster ships will less likely be griefed by repeated tags from slower ships.

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22 hours ago, Darayavahus said:

So you are saying a solo Ganker can roam freely and risk nothing (if he is fast enough)?

First off.. There is no such thing as a "solo ganker" - that defies the definition of the word "gank". Secondly: yeah a player out hunting should be able to do so with impunity IF the pursuers aren't fast enough to catch him. I cannot count the times I've been chased by indefatigables in my renommee.. And it should not come as a surprise who wins that chase when the counter-gank fleet can't think far enough ahead to take out appropriate ships..

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5 minutes ago, Bearwall said:

First off.. There is no such thing as a "solo ganker" - that defies the definition of the word "gank". Secondly: yeah a player out hunting should be able to do so with impunity IF the pursuers aren't fast enough to catch him. I cannot count the times I've been chased by indefatigables in my renommee.. And it should not come as a surprise who wins that chase when the counter-gank fleet can't think far enough ahead to take out appropriate ships..

If it would be a solo player or group of players it does not matter. There should be no option for anyone to sail near a capital, or major city attack someone (jump into a Mission for example), kill or capture this guys ship and get out freely, either it is teleport to nearest port or boost for speed. I can understand they might have option to choose location they want to spawn in OW in some vicinity of Battles location, but cmon... immunity?

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Sure let's forget realism in favor of the gankers. If an enemy ship/fleet are stupid enough to sail close to a port then expect the navy to be waiting outside. 

People wanting special perks for ganking trying to claim "realism" about revenge fleets?? ok... allow the fleets to enter the battle with no timer like realism!!! You think realistically the Navies will sit back while important supplies are being attacked? You think the fleets in port will sit back drinking cocktails watching there countries ships being engaged??

You seem to want, TP to friendly ports!! Invisible after battle until your back in home! What else will you guys want for the future??? Laser Cannons??? Force fields? Stealth technology??? You gank near enemy ports expect to be hunted!!! Me and a few guys in my clan attacked a pirate in his inde with 2 indiaman sailing past pirate forts. 

We got away with all his ships sailing from pirate waters near Mortimer back to KPR... we did this without needing your special ganking suggestions. 

If you expect revenge fleets, then take a fleet!!

Want to gank solo, then don't gank near ports where clan activity is high... simples!!

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22 minutes ago, Darayavahus said:

If it would be a solo player or group of players it does not matter. There should be no option for anyone to sail near a capital, or major city attack someone (jump into a Mission for example), kill or capture this guys ship and get out freely, either it is teleport to nearest port or boost for speed. I can understand they might have option to choose location they want to spawn in OW in some vicinity of Battles location, but cmon... immunity?

You're missing the point - there is no such thing as immunity.. But if the revenge takes out slow (or slower) moving ships it will not matter where the hunter appears as he will just escape again and again.. The balance is between hunters being able to hunt and revenge fleets being able to actually protect home waters - irl there were no magical way of "camping" a battle site and wait for the attacker to appear instead we have invisibility for 30 secs which I believe is the better of the options tested. Infinite wait in BS (or the equivalent to sci-fis "cloaking devices") was exceptionally bad, the tp to nearest friendly port was exploited to get a tp tickett and the open battles for 10 or 15 mins essentially made hunting impossible as players would just tp to nearest OP jump into a ship and magically appear in the midst of the battle. 

The two options currently not tested through is the current system (which is exploitable) and randomizing spawn locations within a set distance from the battlesite for ships after battle in effect making camping of the battlesite more or less redundant.

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1 minute ago, Bearwall said:

You're missing the point - there is no such thing as immunity.. But if the revenge takes out slow (or slower) moving ships it will not matter where the hunter appears as he will just escape again and again.. The balance is between hunters being able to hunt and revenge fleets being able to actually protect home waters - irl there were no magical way of "camping" a battle site and wait for the attacker to appear instead we have invisibility for 30 secs which I believe is the better of the options tested. Infinite wait in BS (or the equivalent to sci-fis "cloaking devices") was exceptionally bad, the tp to nearest friendly port was exploited to get a tp tickett and the open battles for 10 or 15 mins essentially made hunting impossible as players would just tp to nearest OP jump into a ship and magically appear in the midst of the battle. 

The two options currently not tested through is the current system (which is exploitable) and randomizing spawn locations within a set distance from the battlesite for ships after battle in effect making camping of the battlesite more or less redundant.

Why do you need such luxuries though?? People are able to gank and PVP easily already!!!

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Just now, Rick Astley said:

Why do you need such luxuries though?? People are able to gank and PVP easily already!!!

Actually there is no real luxuries. But in OW the speed moves a lot faster than in battle instance and therefore OW campers are able to make rocket speeds to the battle site compared to the time in the battleinstance. Irl there would be no "home fleet" as the navies gathered the bulk of their assets in a few strategically important ports in order to make battle with the enemy battlefleets. Raiders and patrols relatively rarely came upon each other and most traders were in times of war escorted by convoy.

In game however we have outposts in up to 8 locations, ships in many of them and traders sail without escort in order to make good time. The only way to remove some sort of protection for the hunter is to remove the tp function between OP and I'd seriously advice against that as it would make and already tedious timesink even worse and it'll more or less kill of the casuals who already has a hard time ingame.. The removal of tp from free town to free town has already severely diminished the availability of PvP and I hope they'll reintroduce it even if I'm often the trader getting cought.

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26 minutes ago, Rick Astley said:

Sure let's forget realism in favor of the gankers. If an enemy ship/fleet are stupid enough to sail close to a port then expect the navy to be waiting outside. 

People wanting special perks for ganking trying to claim "realism" about revenge fleets?? ok... allow the fleets to enter the battle with no timer like realism!!! You think realistically the Navies will sit back while important supplies are being attacked? You think the fleets in port will sit back drinking cocktails watching there countries ships being engaged?

Plis, plis dont mention realism when you can't comprehend the fact that the ships on the OW travels like 75 times faster than the ships in battle. 

Realistic my ass.

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Just now, Darayavahus said:

We wan't realistic OW speed! :D

Now that is totally understandable. 

But we have to work with what we got right? What we have now is instanced battles and the disrepancy means that you can call your friends who are sitting in the Capital. Then they travel 1000 miles in 20 minutes, spread out around the battle your in and gank whoever it is your fighting when he pops out. 
That ain't realistic and its a really shitty game mechanic in my opinion. :)

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Just now, Bearwall said:

Actually there is no real luxuries. But in OW the speed moves a lot faster than in battle instance and therefore OW campers are able to make rocket speeds to the battle site compared to the time in the battleinstance. Irl there would be no "home fleet" as the navies gathered the bulk of their assets in a few strategically important ports in order to make battle with the enemy battlefleets. Raiders and patrols relatively rarely came upon each other and most traders were in times of war escorted by convoy.

In game however we have outposts in up to 8 locations, ships in many of them and traders sail without escort in order to make good time. The only way to remove some sort of protection for the hunter is to remove the tp function between OP and I'd seriously advice against that as it would make and already tedious timesink even worse and it'll more or less kill of the casuals who already has a hard time ingame.. The removal of tp from free town to free town has already severely diminished the availability of PvP and I hope they'll reintroduce it even if I'm often the trader getting cought.

That really doesn't matter, If ships are in ports then why can't they sail them out???

Traders in this game represent to a nation the same importance as they did for real navies and nations around the world today. The matter of the question is you claim you want "Realism"

Well then ok...

1) Every player must be limited to one ship then, 

2) Player must remain in that outpost while his ship is there.

3) Battles outside ports have no timers. Anyone can join no matter what time is displayed on the battle timer.

4) Port Battles are toO remove Circles as they were never in a Battle period.

4) Remove invisible as that was not historically correct either... Still to this day stealth ships can never beat the eye. 

Need I go on???

 

I have stated just how easy it is to sail from KPR to Mortimer steal a Pirate Captains 3 ships and sail them back to KPR, I cannot see why anything must change but you if cry babies want it realistic to benefit just you then I suggest the devs implement your realism events as I stated above listed 1-4

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3 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Plis, plis dont mention realism when you can't comprehend the fact that the ships on the OW travels like 75 times faster than the ships in battle. 

Realistic my ass.

Excuse me, but it is your ideas of invisible timers and porting out of battle to safety that is non "Realistic" 

 

Trying to turn your "Realism" BS onto me when you cry babies have been bleating on about it like sheep over the course of 3 pages.... give me a break...

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3 minutes ago, Rick Astley said:

That really doesn't matter, If ships are in ports then why can't they sail them out???

Traders in this game represent to a nation the same importance as they did for real navies and nations around the world today. The matter of the question is you claim you want "Realism"

Well then ok...

1) Every player must be limited to one ship then, 

2) Player must remain in that outpost while his ship is there.

3) Battles outside ports have no timers. Anyone can join no matter what time is displayed on the battle timer.

4) Port Battles are toO remove Circles as they were never in a Battle period.

4) Remove invisible as that was not historically correct either... Still to this day stealth ships can never beat the eye. 

Need I go on???

 

I have stated just how easy it is to sail from KPR to Mortimer steal a Pirate Captains 3 ships and sail them back to KPR, I cannot see why anything must change but you if cry babies want it realistic to benefit just you then I suggest the devs implement your realism events as I stated above listed 1-4

i can add:

Remove Open World as we know it and make all 1 Big Instance in which every1 play, reduce the map to 1 small region with real distance and travel speed, and when u sail and u see something u can fire at will with no compression, Like a real MMO. NO ROE

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Just now, elite92 said:

i can add:

Remove Open World as we know it and make all 1 Big Instance in which every1 play, reduce the map to 1 small region with real distance and travel speed, and when u sail and u see something u can fire at will with no compression, Like a real MMO.

Add that as Number 5 :D

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Just now, Rick Astley said:

Excuse me, but it is your ideas of invisible timers and porting out of battle to safety that is non "Realistic" 

 

Trying to turn your "Realism" BS onto me when you cry babies have been bleating on about it like sheep over the course of 3 pages.... give me a break...

Invisible timers and porting out of battle is just as realistic as someone on the OW going 75 times faster than someone in a battle. 

I never claimed Invisibility and Teleports were realistic (If you think i did, please feel free to read all my comments untill you can quote me saying that). However don't come here trying to say that battles being open for a full 90 minutes is realistic. It cannot in any way be realistic when the guys on the OW are sailing at 75 times the speed of the ones in battle. 
 

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Just now, TommyShelby said:

Invisible timers and porting out of battle is just as realistic as someone on the OW going 75 times faster than someone in a battle. 

I never claimed Invisibility and Teleports were realistic (If you think i did, please feel free to read all my comments untill you can quote me saying that). However don't come here trying to say that battles being open for a full 90 minutes is realistic. It cannot in any way be realistic when the guys on the OW are sailing at 75 times the speed of the ones in battle. 
 

You also have the benefit of sailing at 75 times normal speed to gank your pray..... expect the x75 times speed to be returned to you.

 

Basically after reading your suggestions all I seem to make out of it is this 

 

" @admin I want to be able to attack defenseless traders alone steal there cargo and sink his ship for PVP marks as I so good of a captain I want to be able to get my pray and then get away without any repercussion, I want to be able to sail at 75 times normal time in Open world to catch my pray.... but I don;t want the other side to be able to do it. I want to be able to attack my defenseless pray without being interrupted as I'm really a bad player... True PVPers can do it and do it well but I'm slow and to be honest rubbish at this game so want you to make it easier for me."

There summed your pathetic whine up perfectly. If I can do it and many others like @The Red Duke for instance in his Privateer... why cannot you guys?? Why must this entire game revolve around you easy mode!!

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16 minutes ago, Rick Astley said:

Excuse me, but it is your ideas of invisible timers and porting out of battle to safety that is non "Realistic" 

 

Trying to turn your "Realism" BS onto me when you cry babies have been bleating on about it like sheep over the course of 3 pages.... give me a break...

lol

You do understand this is only being discussed because of the fact we've got two dimensions, battle and OW instance, and therefore anyone can use the hyper speed of OW as an advantage to camp on an exact battle position, to which he would have never gotten because 1) would have taken ages getting there, if we didnt have the luxury of ow speed boost and 2) captains back in the day had no means of communication

Right now, active pvp is being harshly discouraged; waiting for someone 'stupid' enough to deliver the PvP, camping on his battle position to grab an easy kill afterwards seems much more profitable

If you escaped in battle, you'll basically have to escape over and over again, due to the two instances.

We had TP to port before, but got removed because of whiners being salty about them loosing  /  not being able to control a ship properly, and wanting to take revenge on them :)

Name one other MMO where you're forced to get revenge'd by in-teleporting help called by your opponents?

Great gameplay, right? And super realistic / hardcore, as it's advertised on steam.

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Just now, Rick Astley said:

You also have the benefit of sailing at 75 times normal speed to gank your pray..... expect the x75 times speed to be returned to you.
Actually we don't mate. What we are asking for is that battles close after 2 minutes (What you see is what you get RoE). 
This means everyone is equal on the OW, my "pray" will be sailing at exactly the same time compression as i would. 
If someone ganks me on the OW, i'm not complaining. It means i made a mistake.

 

Basically after reading your suggestions all I seem to make out of it is this 

 

" @admin I want to be able to attack defenseless traders alone steal there cargo and sink his ship for PVP marks as I so good of a captain I want to be able to get my pray and then get away without any repercussion, I want to be able to sail at 75 times normal time in Open world to catch my pray.... but I don;t want the other side to be able to do it. I want to be able to attack my defenseless pray without being interrupted as I'm really a bad player... True PVPers can do it and do it well but I'm slow and to be honest rubbish at this game so want you to make it easier for me."
Yes yes, that is exactly what i'm saying. Thanks for actually reading stuff. 

There summed your pathetic whine up perfectly. If I can do it and many others like @The Red Duke for instance in his Privateer... why cannot you guys?? Why must this entire game revolve around you easy mode!!
Rarely if ever will someone bother making a "Revenge fleet" for a Privateer. The Red Duke is also playing on Global now where the population is quite low meaning that there is less people to actually make "Revenge Fleets". 

All in all, atleast you live up to your name. You surely must be trolling or just incredibly bad at reading and understanding. 

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3 minutes ago, Rick Astley said:

I want to be able to sail at 75 times normal time in Open world to catch my pray.... but I don;t want the other side to be able to do it.

The risk of getting caught in the first place is still there?

And anyone can raid others?

I dont get the casual mentality of 'omg he killed me, I need to take revenge on him no matter what"

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Just now, Liquicity said:

lol

You do understand this is only being discussed because of the fact we've got two dimensions, battle and OW instance, and therefore anyone can use the hyper speed of OW as an advantage to camp on an exact battle position, to which he would have never gotten because 1) would have taken ages getting there, if we didnt have the luxury of ow speed boost and 2) captains back in the day had no means of communication

Right now, active pvp is being harshly discouraged; waiting for someone 'stupid' enough to deliver the PvP, camping on his battle position to grab an easy kill afterwards seems much more profitable

Great gameplay, right?

Thanks for a sensible response I shall return the favor o7

Q - "you do understand this is only being discussed because of the fact we've got two dimensions, battle and OW instance, and therefore anyone can use the hyper speed of OW         as an advantage to camp on an exact battle position"

A - Well yes, but you also traveled at the same speed to reach your pray so if it's good enough for you why not for other players?

Q - would have taken ages getting there, if we didnt have the luxury of ow speed boost and

A - Yes but as I have advised, you and other people complaining here have also made us of the 75 times faster in OW in order to get to your hunting ground.

Q - captains back in the day had no means of communication

A - You are correct, but people using TS and Discord is out of the admins control, they cannot prevent people using it as I bet you and other on this topic use it also.

Q - Right now, active pvp is being harshly discouraged; waiting for someone 'stupid' enough to deliver the PvP, camping on his battle position to grab an easy kill afterwards seems much more profitable

A - But there are hundreds playing this game and PVPing without the need to complain, if your sailing close to an area known to have clan activity and you tag a ship in OW *75 times faster than normal like everyone else* then wait until they are far enough out, don;t sit by a port entrance to snag you prey.

Q - Great gameplay, right?

A - Yeah to be honest the devs have turned this game from being fun and enjoyable to an expensive grind fest. I can understand you want it easier to evade revenge fleets but this time last year it was easier for PVPing.... I have said this in numerous posts that the Devs had a winner last year this game was fun and exciting, but giving Gankers more bonuses to evade will just turn more people away and I've witnessed 21 of my friends who came back from the great wipe... saw what a mess it was and have given up the game.

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7 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

All in all, atleast you live up to your name. You surely must be trolling or just incredibly bad at reading and understanding. 

Trolling for having an opinion that is not the same as yours.... *Slow Clap* well done.... what a muppet you are if you think everyone who disagrees with you is a troll!

 

With your name of @TommyShelby does that mean your a big time gangster.... a class A badass on the forums??? Give over... I chose Rick Astley because I wanted to....

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10 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

The risk of getting caught in the first place is still there?

And anyone can raid others?

I dont get the casual mentality of 'omg he killed me, I need to take revenge on him no matter what"

Not at all, but small clans need the resources so you cannot blame them for being p***** about you taking there ship and cargo.

Personally from our clan, if you lose your ship your a muppet as were off doing other things, you sail alone and loose your cargo.... that is your fault.

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23 minutes ago, Rick Astley said:

That really doesn't matter, If ships are in ports then why can't they sail them out???

Traders in this game represent to a nation the same importance as they did for real navies and nations around the world today. The matter of the question is you claim you want "Realism"

Well then ok...

1) Every player must be limited to one ship then, 

2) Player must remain in that outpost while his ship is there.

3) Battles outside ports have no timers. Anyone can join no matter what time is displayed on the battle timer.

4) Port Battles are toO remove Circles as they were never in a Battle period.

4) Remove invisible as that was not historically correct either... Still to this day stealth ships can never beat the eye. 

Need I go on???

 

I have stated just how easy it is to sail from KPR to Mortimer steal a Pirate Captains 3 ships and sail them back to KPR, I cannot see why anything must change but you if cry babies want it realistic to benefit just you then I suggest the devs implement your realism events as I stated above listed 1-4

I'm sorry, but your provocative reasoning does not make sense, nonsense.
you forgot to highlight the most important thing, different compression between OW and battles, everything comes from there. That written by you is just rhetorical, and you have not highlighted the real problem at all.

@Rickard, i would also love a world in a big istance. I disagree with you, however, that current compromises (OW / rooms) are necessary, otherwise it will be all wrapped in something like WoW. I claim I do not know WoW, but I imagine more arcade of WT (which is already in its very arcade). So shit of shit. But a game in rooms / maps can at the same time be developed in a realistic and interesting way, just having well-created missions and obj. If then you can connect the various "maps" with each other with some system.

To today, with the current NA, we are playing something that has practically nothing realistic, funny or anything else. It's just a game for Clans, where people lose at least 5 hours and have to be organized in big numbers. These things have nothing to do with historical sails-naval actions. It's just a game for clans and magic bonuses. What affected many people at the beginning, about 3 years ago, was dynamics and accuracy in fighting. Now that is no more, just baits and ganking.

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